Posted on 10/26/2006 1:51:02 PM PDT by ROTB
The Old Testament, is the divinely inspired Word of God (II TIMOTHY 3:16), written down by sinful, falliable, men, (JAMES 3:2), and yet accurately transmitted through the generations (PSALMS 12:7), but is not pertinent to our time as we have a New Testament (MATTHEW 26:28, HEBREWS 9:15) which packs up all of the good things of the Old Testament (LUKE 10:27), along with a new commandment to love one another as Jesus loved his disciples (JOHN 13:34), and thus we should only focus on the teachings of Jesus Christ, not on Moses, or David, our focus is Jesus Christ and his teachings.
My friend and I have poured over your respondes, and we are so far disappointed given we did carefully clarify our position on the matter, thus your responses did not address the concerns we raised.
Let us clarify our view:
The Old Testament, is the divinely inspired Word of God (II TIMOTHY 3:16), written down by sinful, falliable, men, (JAMES 3:2), and yet accurately transmitted through the generations (PSALMS 12:7), but is not pertinent to our time as we have a New Testament (MATTHEW 26:28, HEBREWS 9:15) which packs up all of the good things of the Old Testament (LUKE 10:27), along with a new commandment to love one another as Jesus loved his disciples (JOHN 13:34), and thus we should only focus on the teachings of Jesus Christ, not on Moses, or David, our focus is Jesus Christ and his teachings.
Freeper claptrap: Check back at the original letter in the original posting, and you will see that Peter, Andrew, and Christ himself voluntarily chose death over denying the Truth. I hope neither you, nor us, nor our families, nor anyone on FreeRepublic must choose between getting their heads chopped off, or affirming Jesus as Lord and Savior, but that day may come, and should it, may we face it bravely.
Freepers XeniaSt and LiteKeeper and ladyinred: We're not trying to suggest that the Old and New Testaments are in conflict, since the Old Testament clearly said that there would be a New Covenant (JEREMIAH 31:31).
Freeper wea: The letter in the original posting was written by us in response to the "minister" who was pushing Psalm 35 as something we should pray today.
Freeper Silly: I think it's fair that God wants our authentic selves in prayer. That's a good way of reconciling scripture as not contradicting itself, so I further think that since God wants us to be conformed to the image of Christ (ROMANS 8:29), that we would eventually grow (I PETER 2:2) to the point where like the apostles and Christ himself, we would go to our deaths voluntarily rather than deny the Truth. By the way, check out http://www.direct.ca/trinity/y3nf.html. Amazing eh?
Freeper Dad x 3: The way I have heard "Delivering such a one" per I Corinthians 5:5 is that Paul had intercessed in prayer on behalf of this person, but had decided to cease this effort, effectively leaving that person in Satan's hands. I don't think this can be so easily chalked up as a prayer or thought of vengeance. It seems more like resignment to that person's fate, and not revenge. This is especially not a sign vengeance, since he wanted to save the man's soul, unlike David who wanted them as "chaff before the wind", and Jesus said that chaff would "burn". Indeed, so long as the "destruction of the flesh" does not come without plenty of time to hear and consider Altar Call, then it is a good thing. Again, I pray you, nor anyone I know, is put into a situation where the "sword" is necessary.
Freeper kerryusama04: Of the 18 English translations on biblegateway.com, 3 explicitly say that the salvation of verse 9 belongs to David and not his persecutors. The other 15 are ambiguous whether salvation comes to his enemies or not, including the King James. But again, even if the salvation of Pslam 35:9 belongs also to the persecutors of David, are we not called to love our enemies, and bless those who curse us, and do good to those who hate us? JAMES 5:11 calls the Lord full of pity, and of tender mercy. Are we not called to be after God's heart in this way?
Freeper Cvengr: Check LUKE 3:14 for a command from John the Baptist to soldiers to "do violence to no man." I think you have misapplied the word "violence" when you really meant something else.
Freeper HarleyD: John Gill interprets Psalm 35:4 which says "Let them be confounded, and put to shame, that seek after my soul" as "by way of [cursing] ... prophecy of what would be ... expressions of faith that so it should be; and are not to be drawn into examples, and to be imitated by private persons ... nor are they contrary to those evangelical rules, which require me to love their enemies, and pray for them." I don't see how cursing is not contrary to the command to love our enemies. The Old Testament is the inspired Word of God, and it was perfect, but we have a new and better covenant (II CORINTHIANS 3:6-11, HEBREWS 9:11, HEBREWS 7:19, HEBREWS 7:22, HEBREWS 8:6). Thus we don't have to call the curses of Psalm 35 prophetic. They are simply the Old Covenant which have been replaced by a new and better covenant.
Thus, I re-post, and I have pinged you all to ask you what you think of my responses to your opinions, and will now repeat our position on the Old Testament from the beginning of this posting:
The Old Testament, is the divinely inspired Word of God (II TIMOTHY 3:16), written down by sinful, falliable, men, (JAMES 3:2), and yet accurately transmitted through the generations (PSALMS 12:7), but is not pertinent to our time as we have a New Testament (MATTHEW 26:28, HEBREWS 9:15) which packs up all of the good things of the Old Testament (LUKE 10:27), along with a new commandment to love one another as Jesus loved his disciples (JOHN 13:34), and thus we should only focus on the teachings of Jesus Christ, not on Moses, or David, our focus is Jesus Christ and his teachings.
Thank you for your time,
ROTB
Beware the heresy of the Satanic Marcion.
Pinging my brothers and sisters in Christ who responded to my first posting.
May the Lord bless your day.
ROTB
Is the Book of Wisdom pertinent to our time? The Psalms? Genesis?
As several of the Pythons have said repeatedly, "You're a loony."
along with a new commandment to love one another as Jesus loved his disciples (JOHN 13:34),I'm not sure who did your exegesis, but those verses say nothing of the kind.
Pray tell how do you read the following verse:
b'shem Y'shua Leviticus 19:18 `............ but you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am YHvH.
The verse says nothing of the kind.
John 5:39 "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; 40 and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.
Mr 12:24 - Jesus said to them, "Is this not the reason you are mistaken, that you do not understand the Scriptures or the power of God?
Lu 24:45 - Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures,
2Pe 3:16 - as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.
It was the Old Testament scriptures the Bereans reviewed to "find out if these things were so". I would suggest what was good enough for the Bereans is good enough for us, although we have the more complete word of God.
There are many great commentaries such as Calvin, Gill, Matthew Henry, most of these on line, that will answers many of your questions. But it takes time to study not only scriptural passages but doctrinal positions. Give it time but don't go throwing scripture out the window.
Remember Quinn's Laws: Everything before the word "but" is BS. The author of this piece of garbage has absolutely no business criticising the present apostate church for it's blasphemy. They use the same hermeneutic as he or she has in order to rationalise away the clear teaching of God in the New Testament.
i would recommend that the author of this piece remember the clear words of the Psalmist when we are told that ...the word of God endureth forever.
The proposition that "The Old Testament...is not pertinent to our time as we have a New Testament..." is Self-Refuting nonsense. When did "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" cease to be pertinent to our time?
You probably agree that the Commandments are pertinent to our time. Good. So it appears to me that what you really want to do is to pick and choose what is pertinent, and what is not pertinent to our time.
No thanks. We've already had one Emmanuel Swedenborg.
LOL. Sounds about right. 8~)
Take away the old testament and the new testament will be misinterpreted and misunderstood. The new testament is a continuation of the old and can't be correctly understood without it.
Bump to your excellent post, CDL.
LOL. And one was too many.
As Augustine wrote, "In the Old Testament, the New Testament lies concealed; but in the New Testament, the Old Testament is revealed."
But when we allow the whole Bible-Old and New Testaments-to speak to us, we find that those subjective aspects of the Christian life, which are undoubtedly important-the new birth, faith, and sanctification-are the fruits of the gospel. The gospel, while still relating to individual people at their point of need, is rooted and grounded in the history of redemption. It is the good news about Jesus, before it can become good news for sinful men and women. Indeed, it is only as the objective (redemptive-historical) facts are grasped that the subjective experience of the individual Christian can be understood." "...Failure to grasp this truth-largely because the proper study of the Old Testament has been neglected-has aided and abetted one of the most unfortunate reversals in evangelical theology. The core of the gospel, the historical facts of what God did in Jesus Christ, is often downgraded today in favor of a more mystical emphasis on the private spiritual experience of the individual. Whereas faith in the gospel is essentially acceptance of and commitment to the declaration that God acted in Christ some two thousand years ago on our behalf, saving faith is often portrayed nowadays more as trust in what God is doing in us now. Biblical ideas such as "the forgiveness of sins" or "salvation" are interpreted as primarily describing a Christian’s personal, subjective experience.
The Old Testament is the inspired Word of God, and it clearly points to a coming Christ and a New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31).
Please see http://www.direct.ca/trinity/y3nf.html
We simply now have a higher calling through a new and better covenant (II CORINTHIANS 3:6-11, HEBREWS 9:11, HEBREWS 7:19, HEBREWS 7:22, HEBREWS 8:6).
Both of you are right, in that Genesis is relevant in our times, given that atheists are striving to indoctrinate our children into Darwinism. I have a lot of respect for our brothers in Christ at www.answersingenesis.org, and I support them completely.
But the context of "pertinent to our time" had to do with whether we pray for persecution for our enemies per Psalm 35, or whether we bless them, and pray for them per the New Testament, and it had nothing to do with Genesis having no authority, or Psalm 23 for instance being unapplicable.
Please see post #15 for further clarification.
A NEW COMMANDMENT I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
John 13:34
... this is different than ...
...but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Levitivus 19:18
Earlier in John 13, Jesus had finished washing the disciples' feet, and in this context Jesus said John 13:34.
Loving your neighbor as yourself (old commandment in Leviticus), is different from seeking to serve your Christian brother (new commandment in John) ... right?
Maybe the NIV version of James 3:2 will be more clear:
...We all stumble in many ways...
I'm not trying to intimate that the Word of God has errors. Not by a long shot. I hope you did not think that. I should probably put that in my position paragraph to avoid confusion.
Please see post #15
Also, the Word of God is inerrant:
...the word of the LORD is flawless...
II Samuel 22:31 and Psalms 18:30 (NIV for clarity)
Again, please see post #15.
I'm not trying to sound like a broken record given that I've asked many others to see post #15 ... but please see post #15. :)
Please see post #15.
Freeper Ruy Dias de Bivar : That's a very interesting verse. I'll have to dwell on that with my Christian Brother.
Absolutely.
There are two aspects to your post. First is whether or not the OT should be used.
2 Tim 3:16-17 says, "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work"
This passage was written when the only scriptures available were the OT books. This verse declares the OT to be useful to Christians.
The second aspect is how we should use the OT. We are under a New Covenant, and have been given new commandments. Jesus didn't come to destroy the law, but He did come to set us free from the law.
One of the NT commandments is found in 1 Thess 4:1-8. It commands us to obtain from sexual immorality. Without the OT, we wouldn't have any definition of sexually immorality.
We are not under the OT law, but the OT is required for understanding NT concepts, and for the many examples of faith. The books of Romans and Hebrews would be incomprehensible without the OT to put many of the verses in context.
Blessings
Out of curiosity, what does "not pertinent to our time" mean?
-- That complete message of Christ can be understood through less books than the complete Old Testament Canon?
-- Or that reading the Old Testament is harmful without proper exegetical equipment, but reading of the New Testament is useful without outside guidance?
-- Or that our time is such that we cannot understand the Old Testament but can understand the New Testament?
-- Or that the Law of the Old Testament was given the Jews alone and not us Gentiles?
As a Catholic I can partly agree with some of these statements, but not others.
Joh 5:46 "For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me.
2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 2Ti 3:17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.
The idea that the OT is not pertinent is abhorrent to me.
David was the God inspired leader of God's very own Nation. If he desired his enemies to be crushed, I am sure he had reason.
God's salvation is a free gift to all who would accept it through His Son, Jesus Christ. God desires repentance.
Luk 15:7 "I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.
Yes, we must love our enemies. But, as Paul has given example, sometimes it is better to put a sinner to death than it is to let him keep sinning:
1Co 5:5 I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
While verses 2Tim 3:16 AND 17 have been mentioned I believe 3:15 is also important.
2Ti 3:15 And that from a CHILD thou hast known the HOLY SCRIPTURES, which are able to make thee WISE UNTO SALVATION through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
I always find it amazing those that downplay the importance of the Old Testament.
From the examples of great faith to the examples of great evil, the OT has much to offer. And from Genesis to Revelation, the story is continous. What good would the ending be if you didn't know the beginning?
I can't help but think you are trying to change the definition of sin. See, no one would need a New Testament Savior if they were no longer sinners. The Old Testament gives witness to our sinfulness and need of a Savior. And it foretells of the Savior. The New Testament makes no sense without it. Sin still exists in the hearts of all mankind. They need to see it if they are ever to know they need a Savior.
When the New Testament says, "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God," what proof have you got that that is true? Sin is still sin in the NT just as it was in the OT, only the meaning of it was applied even further into the heart of man. Lust is adultery. Hate is murder. Etc. God judges the heart, not just the actions. That's what the self-righteous missed. They did not understand the Scriptures or God's law. They lived in denial of their own sinful actions and even more so, their own sinful hearts.
The ceremonial laws are the only things that we need no longer obey, for obvious reasons....but even they are relevant in their teachings about God and our relationship with him -- and they give witness to Christ.
Hate is not murder. Murder is murder and hate is hate. But in God's eyes, He sees the desire to murder even before it becomes an action. So you are already guilty when you desire to murder someone. You haven't committed the crime, but you have committed the crime IN YOUR HEART. And God judges the heart. Now where did "Thou shalt not murder" come from? A murderer will be judged to hell, even one who only does it in his heart.....UNLESS he repents and believes the gospel. Of course he will still have to account for his deeds to his fellow man -- murder will have its punishment. Part of the evidence of the new birth in Christ would be his willingness to submit to those sorts of just consequences.
I'm not sure what to say about your situation, but to turn this concern into an argument of the Old Testament vs. New Testament, or God's grace vs. God's judgement will not lead anywhere. God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow and you will only find yourself fighting against God's word, and that is a waste of time and pointless.
God will always DRIVE us to be in prayer with him. So first of all, I would advise that you and your friends at church be in prayer about this.
I suspect that the Holy Spirit is warning you because "For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you" (Matt 7:1). I don't know the specifics about your pastor or your church, but whatever's going on you need to get the fight this guns blazing attitude/option (whatever) out of your heart, calm down, and wait upon a revelation from God. God will use our circumstances to provide an opportunity to reveal more of himself, he is faithful, its up to you to take him up on the opportunity or not.
The only way to meet the violence of evil is with the violence of righteousness, justice, love and grace. That is the principle of law enforcement and military establishment.
If this were not so, then the elders in heaven would have no need to exhort all power, wealth, force, wisdom, glory, honor and praise to our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus prior to the opening of the seals.
In Luke 3:14, the violence (DIASEIO) spoken of, is probably better understood to meann intimidation of another's will.
Perform a word study on the doctrine of Dung. Freedom not preserved is a waste. Dead soldiers are called dung on the ground because they have been wasted, Jer 9:22, 16:4.
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