Just what is happening at Medjugorje?

American Papist ^ | July 25, 2006 | Thomas

[NYer]

The question of Medjugorje is a huge (and often heated) one, and it looks like it's about to get bigger and, well, more heated:

VATICAN CITY (CNS) -- Cardinal Vinko Puljic of Sarajevo, Bosnia-Herzegovina, announced a commission would be formed to review the alleged Marian apparitions at Medjugorje and pastoral provisions for the thousands of pilgrims who visit the town each year.

"The commission members have not been named yet," Cardinal Puljic told Catholic News Service in a July 24 telephone interview. "I am awaiting suggestions from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith" on theologians to appoint. "

But this commission will be under the (Bosnian) bishops' conference" as is the usual practice with alleged apparitions, he said. [More...]

Now, here's the other important development:

"there is currently going around the blogosphere a statement by Bishop Peric of Mostar-Duvno regarding the apparitions reported at Medjugorje, which is in his diocese."

[He makes the following dramatic appeal:]

Therefore I responsibly call upon those who claim themselves to be “seers”, as well as those persons behind the “messages”, to demonstrate ecclesiastical obedience and to cease with these public manifestations and messages in this parish. In this fashion they shall show their necessary adherence to the Church, by neither placing private “apparitions” nor private sayings before the official position of the Church.

[Jimmy Akin has more analysis.]

The Bishop's statement (and appeal) are being claimed by some as a "new litmus test" for the authenticity of the apparitions (h/t: Mark Shea).

Dom has commentary on the Bishop's statement (with plenty of combox debate).

So, between Mark Shea, Jimmy Akin and Dom Bettinelli, you should have all the links you need.

From my brief read of the situation, it seems reasonable to expect that a more authoritative judgment on Medjugorje will be issued later this fall (knowing how long these things tend to take, add the necessary grain of salt to any timescale projections).

Finally, a closing observation: the spiritual fruits of Medjogorje should always be distinguished from the authenticity of the apparitions themselves as well as the content of the messages received. So whatever happens, we don't have to worry about that. Thank goodness.

[Straight Vermonter]

Interesting. I thought Medjugorje had pretty much be debunked.

[Straight Vermonter]

Be=been

[Nihil Obstat]

Finally, a closing observation: the spiritual fruits of Medjogorje should always be distinguished from the authenticity of the apparitions themselves as well as the content of the messages received. So whatever happens, we don't have to worry about that. Thank goodness.

Good point -- there are definitely amazing conversion stories from there.

[Solson]

Not the case. There is strong debate on both sides. My parents went in the 90's and were quite overwhelmed by the feeling and response. They've also been to Lourdes, Fatima and Garabandal.

[DTA]

Were they aware of the historical conotations of Medjugorje, i.e. the extermination commited there in WWIIthe site they visited?

Were your parents aware that the Franciscans took hands on approach to slaughtering of civilians, i.e. they led others by example, shalughtering and butchering elderly, women and children? Did they learn that Father Zovko, a key person in Medjugorje alleged apparition is a relative of another Father Zovko, a war criminal?

Visiting Medjugorje without being aware of this is sort of visiting Dachau without knowing what was happening there sixty plus years ago.

[Suzy Quzy]

What happened at Garabandal? I've never heard that name before?

[Suzy Quzy]

Franciscans killed elderly and children? I don't think so.

[It's me]

Did they learn that Father Zovko, a key person in Medjugorje alleged apparition is a relative of another Father Zovko, a war criminal?

Well, wait a minute here. As much as I do NOT like what is happening at Medjugorje, that statement is really not fair.
Can you blame Mel Gibson for his father's words? No.
My father's nuts but I'm not. (At least I don't think I am!)

You really lhave to use another tactic. How about facts that stand on their own concerning Father Zovko?

[netmilsmom]

>>Not the case. There is strong debate on both sides. My parents went in the 90's and were quite overwhelmed by the feeling and response. They've also been to Lourdes, Fatima and Garabandal.<<

So basically your parents are overwhelmed no matter what Marian apparition site they visit, whether real or fake.

[DTA]

>>>>>>Franciscans killed elderly and children? I don't think so.<<<<<

What you think or do not think has no bearing on historical facts.

There are even reports from Bishop of Mostar to Archbishop Stepinac about the mass slaughter and forced conversions.

Bishop of Mostar's Letter to Archbishop Stepinac As head of the Catholic Church in Croatia, all religious matters - including forced conversions by the Serbian population to Catholicism - were the responsibility of Archbishop Alojzije Stepinac of Zagreb. This excerpt is a response from the Bishop of Mostar to a letter Stepinac sent inquiring as to the progress of forced conversions in his diocese - the capital of Hercegovina and scene of the worst Ustase massacres during the Spring and Summer of 1941. Stepinac passed this letter on to Ante Pavelic, but otherwise took no action. By the mercy of God there was never such a good occasion as now for us to help Croatia to save the countless souls, people of good will, well-disposed peasants, who live side-by-side with Catholics... Conversion would be appropriate and easy. Unfortunately the authorities in their narrow views are involuntarily hindering the Croatia and Catholic cause. In many parishes in the diocese... very honest peasants of the Orthodox faith have registered in the Catholic Church... But then outsiders take things in hand. While the newly-converted are at Mass they seize them, men and women alike, and hunt them down like slaves. From Mostar and Caplina the railway carried six boxcars of mothers, girls and children under eight to the station of Surmanci, where they were taken out of the boxcars, brought into the hill and thrown alive, mothers and children, into deep ravines. In the parish of Klepca seven hundred schismatics from the neighboring villages were slaughtered. The Sub-Prefect of Mostar, a Muslim, publicly declared (as a state employee he should have held his tongue) that in Ljubina alone 700 schismatics have been thrown into one pit. In the town of Mostar itself they have been bound by the hundreds, taken in wagons outside the town and then shot down like animals."

There are many graphic reports. The most savage acts occured in Medjugorje and surrounding villages.

I find disturbing that you are not willing to admit that the mass scale crimes have occured.

[Solson]

Interesting read without much supporting documentation.

I'll take my direction from the Church. Thanks though.

[Solson]

quit projecting.

[It's me]

Well they can call themselves franciscans, if they want.

From Jimmy Akin's blog:

...since, as the bishop reports:

[I]n this local Church of Mostar-Duvno, there exists something similar to a schism. A number of priests that have been expelled from the Franciscan OFM Order by the Generalate of the Order, due to their disobedience to the Holy Father, for years now have been forcefully keeping a few parish churches and rectories along with church inventory. They have not only been illegally active in these parishes, but they have also administered the sacraments profanely, while others invalidly, such as Confession and Confirmation, or they have assisted at invalid marriages. This type of anti-ecclesial behaviour is shocking to all of us. At the same time, this scandal of sacrilegiously administering the sacraments, especially of the Most Holy Body of Christ, must shock all the faithful as well who invalidly confess their sins to these priests and participate in sacrilegious liturgies. We pray to the Lord that this scandal and schism be uprooted as soon as possible from our midst.

If I were B16, that's the kind of situation I would want to get sorted out.

Interesting.....

[DTA]

>>>>>>I'll take my direction from the Church. Thanks though.<<<<<<

You mean, direction of Roman Catholic Church of 1941 or Roman Catholic Church of today? There is a huge difference.

B16 does not suport Medjugorje hoax.

[It's me]

quit projecting.

What is that supposed to mean? Really.

[netmilsmom]

>>You really lhave to use another tactic. How about facts that stand on their own concerning Father Zovko?<<


http://www.unitypublishing.com/ZovkoSex.htm

[netmilsmom]

>>quit projecting<<

What in the world are you talking about?
I've never been to a Marian apparition site in my life.

Your parents, however, had the same feelings at Lourdes and Fatima as at those not approved by the church.

Says something.....

[Solson]

What the Church permits.

As the already cited statements note, Catholics may go to Medjugorje. Such pilgrimages may even include priests acting as chaplains, as opposed to officially sponsoring them. Also, the Church has not suppressed discussion of Medjugorje, therefore, it is allowed. Common sense, however, says that Catholics on both sides of the Medjugorje issue should exercise prudence and charity in speaking of others who believe differently. Medjugorje is not a litmus test of orthodoxy, though every Catholic will have a moral obligation to accept the judgement of Rome, in the manner Pope Benedict explained, should it ever be rendered.

Source: http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/medjugorje.htm

No judgement by the Church has ever been rendered on Medjugorje or Garabandal. Once they are rendered, if they are, obedience will be necessary.

[DTA]

It is important to understand who Medjugorje Francisans were and who they still are:

This may help:

Evelyn Waugh on the Sarajevo Franciscans

Evelyn Waugh, the famous British novelist, spent the latter part of World War II as part of an Allied mission to the Communist-led partizans of Tito, together with his friend, Randolph Churchill. Waugh despised the Communists - and Tito in particular - and later savaged them both in his novel Unconditional Surrender. He also circulated a report damning the Yugoslav authorities for persecuting the Catholic Church. This excerpt from a letter to his superior describes the attitude of the Franciscans he had interviewed about the pre-war period. Since 1922 Sarajevo had been under the ecclesiastic administration of Archbishop Ivan Saric.

For some time the Croat Franciscans had caused misgivings in Rome for their independence and narrow patriotism. They were mainly recruited from the least cultured part of the population and there is abundant evidence that several wholly unworthy men were attracted to the Franciscan Order by the security and comparative ease which it offered. Many of these youths were sent to Italy for training. Their novitiate was in the neighborhood of Pavelic's HQ at Siena where Ustasha agents made contact with them and imbued them with Pavelic's ideas. They in turn, on returning to their country, passed on his ideas to the pupils in their schools. Sarajevo is credibly described as having been a centre of Franciscan Ustashism.

Suzy, Medjugorje Franciscan is not your average Franciscan.

[Solson]

That's not what I stated at all. Do you have a problem with comprehension?

[netmilsmom]

>>B16 does not suport Medjugorje hoax.<<


Amen!!!!!

Saturday, April 15, 2006
Pope Benedict on Mejudgorje: Not the Real McCoy

Read what Our Holy Father says of the alleged apparitions at Medjugorje: "not a single proof exists that these events concern supernatural apparitions and revelations."

He continued, "We at the congregation felt that priests should be of service to those faithful who seek Confession and Holy Communion, leaving out the question of the authenticity of the apparitions."

[It's me]

I agree with you all about Franciscans and Medugorje. I just really don't think guilt by association is fair.

[siunevada]

While the newly-converted are at Mass they seize them, men and women alike, and hunt them down like slaves. From Mostar and Caplina the railway carried six boxcars of mothers, girls and children under eight to the station of Surmanci, where they were taken out of the boxcars, brought into the hill and thrown alive, mothers and children, into deep ravines.

I'm missing the connection to Franciscans here. This sounds like someone (whoever 'they' refers to) is seizing persons converted to the Latin Rite Church and killing them.

Whovere 'they' were must have had control of the railway and the boxcars. Would that be the Franciscans?

[netmilsmom]

>>Do you have a problem with comprehension?<<

LOLOLOLOL!

Well, why don't you explain it again for those of us who are slow how your parents go to Fatima and Lourdes then two other fake apparition sites and have the same feelings?

[netmilsmom]

>>I agree with you all about Franciscans and Medugorje. I just really don't think guilt by association is fair.<<

I think this is for DTA.

[Solson]

You need to re-read my statements. Your failure to comprehend simple sentence structures is somewhat surprising.

I stated my parents were overwhelmed by the feeling and response at Medjugorje. I stated my parents have visited Fatima, Lourdes, Garabandal and Medjugorje. I NEVER stated they had the same feelings at all apparition sites.

THAT, dim one, was your PROJECTION.

They do have books and classes on reading comprehension. Try one.

[netmilsmom]

http://olrl.org/prophecy/medjugorje.shtml

http://www.unitypublishing.com/Apparitions/Garabandal2.html

Do not be deceived by false apparitions.
Garabandal IS condemned.
Medjugorje has been found untrue by the Bishop there. The Vatican cannot rule until the visions stop. The handlers of the "seers" know this so the visions just continue.

[Solson]

Source??

Medjugorje 25 years later: Apparitions and contested authenticity

By John Thavis
Catholic News Service

ROME (CNS) -- Twenty-five years after six children in Medjugorje, a village in what is now Bosnia-Herzegovina, began reporting apparitions of Mary, pilgrims are still flocking to the site and church officials are still cautious about the authenticity of the events.

Marian experts continue to debate the significance of Medjugorje, and several have published books -- ranging from enthusiastically supportive to skeptical -- to coincide with the anniversary.

In Medjugorje, Franciscan pastors are preparing for overflow crowds on June 24-25, the dates on which the alleged apparitions and messages began in 1981. They insist, however, that no special commemorations are planned.

"Everything's been booked solid for more than a year, and we're expecting thousands of pilgrims. But we're not putting on any spectacle or festival -- just the usual program of prayer," Franciscan Father Ivan Sesar, pastor of St. James Parish in Medjugorje, said in a telephone interview.

Of the six children who originally reported visions from Mary, sometimes daily, one says she still receives messages from Mary on the 25th of each month. They are published online, eagerly awaited by a large network of Christians dedicated to Medjugorje.

According to Bishop Ratko Peric of Mostar-Duvno, whose diocese includes Medjugorje, the messages now number more than 30,000, a fact that only increases his own skepticism about the authenticity of the apparitions.

Bishop Peric discussed Medjugorje with Pope Benedict XVI earlier this year during a visit to the Vatican. In a summary of the discussion published in his diocesan newspaper, Bishop Peric said he had reviewed the history of the apparitions with the pope, who already was aware of the main facts from his time as head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

"The Holy Father told me: We at the congregation always asked ourselves how can any believer accept as authentic apparitions that occur every day and for so many years?" Bishop Peric said.

Bishop Peric noted that Yugoslavian bishops in 1991 issued a statement that "it cannot be confirmed that supernatural apparitions or revelations are occurring" at Medjugorje.

Bishop Peric said he told the pope that his own opinion was even stronger -- not only that a supernatural element cannot be proven, but that "it is certain that these events do not concern supernatural apparitions."

Other priests and bishops have spoken favorably about the apparitions, saying there is no reason to doubt the sincerity of the visionaries or the spiritual effects among pilgrims.

At Medjugorje, the debate over authenticity has been largely set aside by the Franciscan friars who minister to pilgrims and keep in contact with the visionaries.

"We are not here to give a judgment about whether the apparitions are true or not. We're here to follow the people who come, to hear their confessions, to give them pastoral care," said Father Sesar, the 39-year-old pastor.

Father Sesar said that, while early pilgrims to Medjugorje may have been drawn there by curiosity or a thirst for supernatural signs like rosaries turning different colors, that is less true today. Much more significant are the long lines for confession that form every day, he said.

"The biggest things in Medjugorje today are prayer and the sacraments. It's no longer a place where people come to see miracles. They are coming for spiritual growth," he said.

Considerable attention, however, is still given to the apparitions and messages which one of the visionaries, Marija Pavlovic-Lunetti, says she continues to receive. She now lives with her husband and children in Italy.

The message from May 2006 strikes a pious tone typical of most of the thousands of alleged communications over the last 25 years: "Decide for holiness, little children, and think of heaven. Only in this way will you have peace in your heart that no one will be able to destroy. Peace is a gift, which God gives you in prayer."

At the Vatican, officials said they are still monitoring events at Medjugorje, but emphasized that it was not necessarily the Vatican's role to issue an official judgment on the alleged apparitions there.

More than once in recent years, the Vatican has said that dioceses or parishes should not organize official pilgrimages to Medjugorje. That reflects the policy of the bishops.

But the Vatican has also said Catholics are free to travel to the site, and that if they do the church should provide them with pastoral services.

That has left a margin of ambiguity among Catholics. Adding to the confusion have been claims that the late Pope John Paul II strongly supported Medjugorje in various private statements; the Vatican has never confirmed those statements.

After Pope Benedict was elected, it was rumored that as a cardinal he had once traveled incognito to Medjugorje, and that as pope he could be expected to officially approve the site as a Marian shrine.

In his February visit to the Vatican, Bishop Peric said he spoke to the pope about these rumors, and that the pontiff only laughed in surprise.

Pope Benedict, who headed the doctrinal congregation for 24 years, once said the multiplication of Marian apparitions was a "sign of the times" and should not be discounted. But he has also counseled prudence, even when it comes to apparitions officially recognized by the church, like those at Fatima, Portugal; Guadalupe, Mexico; and Lourdes, France.

Behind the Vatican's careful approach is a basic church teaching: that public revelation ended with the death of the last apostle, and that no private revelation, however interesting, will add anything essential to the faith.

Yet some, like Msgr. Arthur Calkins, a Vatican official and a member of the Pontifical International Marian Academy, believe that while apparitions do not furnish new truths of faith, they can help Catholics understand them better.

Private revelations recognized by the authority of the church "may serve to bring home to the faithful truths which are already known, but not fully appreciated," Msgr. Calkins said in an interview.

"The apparitions of Our Lady at Fatima, for example, brought home to the faithful the need for prayer, penance, conversion of heart, reparation for sins. All of this expands on the doctrine of the mystical body of Christ," he said.

Like several other experts at the Vatican, Msgr. Calkins declined to offer any opinion about Medjugorje.

Marian expert Donal Foley, in his new book, "Understanding Medjugorje," reviews the public evidence, particularly from the early days of the reported visions, and says that, "sadly, the only rational conclusion about Medjugorje is that it has turned out to be a vast, if captivating, religious illusion."

In a phone interview, Foley listed several factors that make him dubious: contradictions over how long the apparitions would continue, the excess number of messages, their questionable and sometimes "silly" content, excess focus on inexplicable "signs," and the credulous local culture in Medjugorje.


Foley said it was obvious that some Medjugorje pilgrims have experienced spiritual awakening. But he said part of this could be attributed to a "charismatic element that grabs people's emotions."

Another factor, he said, is that Medjugorje may appeal to Catholics confused by changes after the Second Vatican Council.

"It's a sad reality that some people have had to go to Medjugorje to get priests who were enthusiastic about confession, and to get the things they used to be able to get in the church in the West," he said.

Other writers have used the 25th anniversary as an occasion to celebrate Medjugorje. Elizabeth Ficocelli's "The Fruits of Medjugorje" offers more than 200 pages of what she says are "stories of true and lasting conversion."

In a special anniversary edition of "Medjugorje, The Message," Wayne Weible says that more than 30 million people have made the trip to Medjugorje, where what is "arguably the greatest apparition in recorded Marian history" is still going on.

END

Source: Cathoic News Service

[DTA]

There is no missing connection. The link between the most savage crimes and Herzegovina Franciscans has been documented.

Article: "The Renewal of Medieval Times"

This article appeared in the Fascist-controlled press in Italy on September 18, 1941. The author, Corrado Zoli, was traveling through Bosnia and witnessed the Ustase massacres - and the assistance of Franciscan priests in the butchery - firsthand. There can be little doubt that this article appeared with the agreement of the Fascist Party in Italy, and the Italian Army had already begun to stand between the Ustase and their victims in zones of the NDH under their authority.

There were special bands who performed the massacres and are probably still doing so, actually led and incited by Catholic priests and monks. This is more than confirmed. There was a monk near Travnik with the crucifix in one hand who was inciting a band of people whom he had organized and was leading. This happened in the first few days after my arrival there.

"This therefore means the renewal of medieval times," remarked the correspondent.

"Yes, but made worse by machine guns, hand grenades, dynamite, barrels of gasoline and other means of terrorism."

"Was this committed by the local Croat people?" asked Zoli.

"That's it, but by the worst element of the Croat population, just young men of around 20, collected, armed and led by Croats who came from Zagreb. This was all taking place among people who pretend to be civilized and who brag about having accepted the Mediterranean and Roman culture, sometimes even stating that they are the direct descendants of the Goths. It was a terrible massacre! It was a living terror! Entire families, men women, babies, old men, the sick and children massacred and tormented by the worst imaginable Chinese tortures."...

...The first brother of Assisi spoke with the birds and fish, calling them brothers and sisters, but his disciples and spiritual heirs, filled with hate, massacre the people in the Independent State of Croatia, who are before God and the Father, their own brothers, brothers of the same blood, the same language, the same mother earth which has nourished them with the sap from her breasts. They massacre, they kill, they bury people alive. They throw their victims into the rivers, the sea and into crevices. Bands of these killers still exist and they are in a state of frenzied excitement, led on by the priests and the Catholic religious officials.

[netmilsmom]

This is what you said...
>>Not the case. There is strong debate on both sides. My parents went in the 90's and were quite overwhelmed by the feeling and response. They've also been to Lourdes, Fatima and Garabandal.<<

So what exactly do you mean by "feeling and response"?

Good? Bad?

When they have visited Garabandal, which is ruled as nothing supernatural, they are going to an unapproved site.

Maybe the problem is not "projecting" but rather lack of information on your part.

The name calling is a nice touch, BTW.

[It's me]

Well, I really don't understand what you are stating either. I took it the same as Netmilsmom.

What I find very interesting is that whenever anyone in the slightest way, shows any disagreement with Medugorje, the supporters show their unbelievable anger and outrage. Medugorje supporters are not very Christian.

[netmilsmom]

>>What I find very interesting is that whenever anyone in the slightest way, shows any disagreement with Medugorje, the supporters show their unbelievable anger and outrage. Medugorje supporters are not very Christian.<<

One of my dearest friends from church had the same reaction to the facts of Medjugorje. Her parents had gone there and spent a huge amount of money doing it.

People don't like to know they have been duped.

[Solson]

Umm...yet another translation of the same letter and refers to the 3rd instance of categories from the new norms from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith in 1978.

The Alleged Apparitions at Garabandal, Spain

Msgr. Jose Vilaplana, Bishop of Santander, Spain

---

In answer to questions about the alleged Marian apparitions at Garabandal, Spain, Bishop Jose Vilaplana sends the following response to inquirers.

---

Diocese of Santander

Santander, [date]

Some people have been coming directly to the Diocese of Santander (Spain) asking about the "alleged apparitions" of Garabandal, and above all for the position of the hierarchy of the Church concerning these apparitions.

I must communicate that:

1. All the bishops of the diocese from 1961 through 1970 asserted that the supernatural character of the said apparitions, that took place around that time, could not be confirmed. [no constaba].*

2. In the month of December of 1977 Msgr. del Val, Bishop of Santander, in union with his predecessors, affirmed that in the six years of being Bishop of Santander there were no new phenomena.

3. Not withstanding, the same Msgr. del Val, the first years having passed in which there was confusion to enthusiasm, initiated an interdisciplinary study in order to examine with greater profundity these phenomenon. The conclusion of this study coincided with the previous findings by the bishops, which is to say, that it does not prove [no consta] the supernaturality of said apparitions.

4. This study concluded during the days in which I took possession of the diocese in 1991. Taking advantage, in that same year, of a trip to Rome for the motive of making the ad limina visit, I presented said study to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith and  asked for guidance for pastoral activity concerning the case.

5. On Nov. 28, 1992, the Congregation sent me its response, consisting in, that after having examined attentively the mentioned documentation, it did not consider it opportune to intervene directly, removing the ordinary jurisdiction of the Bishop of Santander, this subject that belongs to him by right. Previous declarations of the Holy See agree in this finding.

In the same letter it was suggested, if I find it opportune, to publish a declaration in which it is re-affirmed that the supernaturality of the referenced apparitions was not proven, making my own the unanimous position of my predecessors.

6. Given that the declarations of my predecessors, who studied the case, have been clear and unanimous, I do not find it necessary to have a new public declaration that would give notoriety to something which happened so long ago. However, I find it opportune to redact this information as a direct response to the persons who ask for direction concerning this question, which I give finally, accepting the decisions of my predecessors and the direction of the Holy See.

7. In reference to the celebration of the Eucharist in Garabandal, following the dispositions of my predecessors, I only allow that it be celebrated in the parish church without reference to the alleged apparitions and with the permission of the current pastor, who has my confidence.

With the wish that this information is helpful to you, receive my cordial greeting in Christ,

Jose Vilaplana
Bishop of Santander

---

---

* EWTN: It should be noted that this appears to correspond to the 3rd of the categories used by the Church since new norms were promulgated in 1978 by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith:

1) constat de supernaturalitate (it is established supernatural)

2) constat de non supernaturalitate (it is established not supernatural)

3) non constat de supernaturalitate (it is not established supernatural)

Source: http://www.ewtn.com/library/BISHOPS/GARABAND.HTM

[siunevada]

All right. No argument there. The Ustase were certainly mass murderers and had their collaborators among the Catholic clergy.

Now, how is that connected to the previous article? Are the Ustase the 'they' referred to in the letter that were seizing converts and shipping them off on the railway?

If yes, presumably these converts were Serbians killed on the basis of ethnicity, not religion.

[It's me]

I really do not understand it.

The other thing that always amazes me are the "visionaires." If you read about the other visionaries in approved apparations, Fatima, Lourdes, they always want go to heaven right away. They want nothing to do with this world. Nothing. They enter a convent and seclude themselves and give their life to God.

Not these "visionaries," they have expensive cars, they travel around the world, go on speaking tours, etc.

Interesting how the messages from Lourdes and Fatima spread around the world without the children going on speaking tours. What? God didn't think He could get the message out there? Especially in this world of abundant information and the internet.

Hmmmm.... make you wonder doesn't it?

[dsc]

"There can be little doubt that this article appeared with the agreement of the Fascist Party in Italy"

That was Mussolini's party, allied with the Nazis. And we're going to take them as credible? No, thanks.

[netmilsmom]

So if the Vatican says there is nothing supernatural going on there, why would anyone think that it is a Marian apparition?

[netmilsmom]

Honestly, I wanted to believe that it was messages from Mary.
Maybe being a FReeper made me skeptical.

Those "seers" are making big bucks for themselves and their handlers. The handlers know how to work the system. Check out the amount of merchandise from Medjugore on E-Bay. Lots of people need that charade to continue.

[VeritatisSplendor]

Garabandal is a village in Spain where there were supposed apparitions of Mary to some children in the early sixties.

I have not read a great deal about this, but one thing that struck me were the descriptions of the children's movements - running backwards on their knees at impossible speed for instance - how would that serve to convey any message from God? It seems twisted, perverted - like the movements of those demonically possessed.

Mrs VS

[DTA]

>>>>>>>That was Mussolini's party, allied with the Nazis. And we're going to take them as credible? No, thanks.<<<<<<

The mass crimes occured in Croatian Nazi state called NDH. NDH was an Axis power, an ally of Hitler and Italy.

This report was printed in Italian paper and it can not be considered to be propaganda piece. Unless you believe that an Axis power printed Allies propaganda in her newspapers in 1941.

Axis powers loathed mass slaughter of civilians in Croatia because it undermined their war effort and made belly of Fortress Europe unstable. Hitler even condidered toppling of Pavelic and putting Croatia under direct German control.

You do not trust this report. Fine. I guess you will trust nothing that documents the crimes commiteed and the role of RC clergy in them.

Only, your dismissal of documents has no effect on the facts. Nazi Croatia 1941-45 is one of the darkest chapters in the history of Roman Catholic Church.

[dsc]

"This report was printed in Italian paper and it can not be considered to be propaganda piece."

Because it was reported in an Axis newspaper, the allegations regarding the role of the Church must be considered suspect, until and unless they are credibly corroborated.

[dsc]

"like the movements of those demonically possessed."

That's what struck me, too.

It just isn't consistent with what God has told us about His nature.

[Malacoda]

I thought Lourdes was approved? Didn't JPII go there several times, and celebrate Mass there?

[bourbon]

This book (The Miracle Detective by Randall Sullivan), which mostly deals with the Medjugorje apparitions, is quite good IMHO.

Even though its author a reformed secularist and Rolling Stone journalist who converted to Catholicism after visiting Medjugorje, the book is ultimately ambivalent about the authenticity of the visions. I thought it did an excellent job of presenting both sides of the story.

Has anyone else here read it? I'd be interested to hear your opinions.

[Nihil Obstat]

thank you for the recommendation, I will try to get that book. I have heard a lot of great conversion stories from Medjugorje, but what bothers me is that none of the seers entered the priesthood or religious life.

[DTA]

>>>>>>>Because it was reported in an Axis newspaper, the allegations regarding the role of the Church must be considered suspect, until and unless they are credibly corroborated.<<<<<<<

There is ample evidence that corroborates Italian wartime report.

Nazi Connection To Franciscan Order Uncovered Near Medjugorje

Siroki Brijeg, Bosnia-Herzegovina — Near the site of a World War II wartime massacre of Serb women and children by Croatian Nazis stands a Franciscan Monastery. It's just down the road from Medjugorje or "Miracle City" where the Virgin Mary is said to put in nightly appearances for the tens of thousands of Roman Catholic pilgrims who flock there each year. The Franciscan Monastery at Sirkoi Brijeg and its controversial contents are at the center of an international scandal involving the Franciscans, Croatian ultra nationalists and the Vatican Bank.

A lawsuit, Alperin v. Vatican Bank, filed in San Francisco Federal Court in November 1999 by Serb, Jewish, and Ukrainian Holocaust survivors against the Vatican Bank and Franciscans seeks return of Nazi loot stolen from wartime Yugoslavia. According to a 1998 US State Department report, the money known as the Ustasha Treasury, is thought to have been concealed in the Vatican and used in part to fund the escape of Nazi and Croatian war criminals to South America. The Franciscans acted as facilitators and middlemen in moving the contents of the Ustasha Treasury from Croatia to Austria, Italy and finally South America.

The Franciscans have denied their wartime ties to the Ustasha regime in Croatia, which slaughtered over 700,000 Serbs, Jews, and Gypsies and set the stage for today's ethnic battles in the Balkans. However, in Siroki Brijeg, plaintiffs' attorneys have obtained tangible proof of the Nazi Franciscan connection. Cameramen working for Phillip Kronzer, a staunch foe of Medjugorje and its Marian apparitions obtained entry to the Monastery and filmed a secret shrine honoring the Ustashe. A plaque dedicated to Franciscan monks who were Ustasha members was filmed along with a massive shrine lining the walls complete with photographs of Ustasha soldiers some in Nazi uniforms. The admonition, "Recognize us, We are yours" can clearly be discerned in the video footage. On a later visit to the monastery the shrine had been dismantled but the videotape preserved the evidence and has now been made available by the Kronzer Foundation.

Just as in World War II, Medjugorje in the 1990's was the site of brutal ethnic cleansing by Croat nationalists. Alperin plaintiffs have alleged that Medjugorje and its facilities are connected with the Ustasha Treasury and the monastery at Siroki Brijeg seems to provide hard evidence of the connection.

[VeritatisSplendor]

Lourdes is definitely approved. And while there have been thousands of reported cures there, the Church has certified only 67 as miracles. Not that the other cures are disproved - but the Church has very strict standards for decreeing a cure miraculous.

Mrs VS

[netmilsmom]

Oh yes!!! Lourdes is approved as is Fatima, Knock, La Salette and Akita, Japan. There is a list that I will find and try to post.


However, Garabandal is not.