Salaries of many Protestant leaders kept under wraps

Bakersfield Californian ^ | Monday, May 29 2006 | MARK BARNA

[PetroniusMaximus]

"Are you willing to surrender the sovereignty of the Church over to Caesar?"

No. I think we have a distinct advantage here in the US in this regard. But what I was addressing is that there is no basis that I know of in the NT for a church to be tax exempt - xzins did provide a sound constitutional argument. (I imagine the NT church would have been hard pressed to argue it's tax exempt status before a Roman court.)

Tax exemption, as we may see in the coming years, is a two edged sword. I think the threat of the withdrawal of exempt status will be used to force many churches and Christian schools/organizations to fall in line with "public policy" with regards to same-sex marriage etc. - just as it was with Bob Jones University regarding racial discrimination.

If this occurs, many will gladly loose their status so as to remain faithful to God, but very many churches that sit on the fence may possibly give in to the pressure.


An interesting passage...

On their arrival in Capernaum, the tax collectors for the Temple tax came to Peter and asked him, "Doesn't your teacher pay the Temple tax?"

"Of course he does," Peter replied. Then he went into the house to talk to Jesus about it.

But before he had a chance to speak, Jesus asked him, "What do you think, Peter? Do kings tax their own people or the foreigners they have conquered?"

"They tax the foreigners," Peter replied.

"Well, then," Jesus said, "the citizens are free! However, we don't want to offend them, so go down to the lake and throw in a line. Open the mouth of the first fish you catch, and you will find a coin. Take the coin and pay the tax for both of us."

[JohnnyM]

What do you think that text is saying?

It's a fascinating text that can open a HUGE can of worms and I am curious what your throughts are on it.

JM

[xzins]

The topic is that churches are not taxable by our own founding documents and our own law.

In NOT paying, they ARE rendering unto Caesar. It's the law.

[xzins]

I've not yet seen a Catholic or Orthodox church building emblazoned with the name of the pastor in 24" letters on the side of the building.

Oh come now....you've never seen pictures of the Pope bandied about like Stalin & Lenin and other titular heads?

The opulence of the hierarchy's treatment is one of my objections to Roman Catholicism and the various Orthodox churches.

[Invincibly Ignorant]

The topic is that churches are not taxable by our own founding documents and our own law.

That law should be changed. When I give money for fuel I don't like 80cents per gallon rendered unto Ceasar either.

[PetroniusMaximus]

"What do you think that text is saying? "

Well, it's not strictly applicable - being that it is a religious tax... but it is interesting that Jesus chose to pay it in order on to offend - an that God provided the money in a miraculous fashion.

I think it is clear that were faithful churches forced to pay tax, it would not hinder God from providing for their needs or prospering them.

"... open a HUGE can of worms"

Funny pun there JohnnyM!!!

"go down to the lake and throw in a line. Open the mouth of the first fish you catch

[xzins]

The constitution does not provide that you cannot be taxed for your gas consumption. In fact, many who read it say it favors sales taxes.

On the other hand, it does say that Congress can't prohibit my free exercise of religion.

If they tax my $10 gift by $1, then they've passed a law that says I cannot worship God with 100% of my money, but with only 90% of my money.

You are free, however, to change the Constitution. There is an amendment process.

On the other hand, is it your opinion that huge corporations have greater access to our government's centers of power partly because of their huge monetary contributions due to taxation; that the government is intimately concerned with their viability because of the jobs they provide, the revenue they generate?

Why would it not be the same with large denominations? The government, once it began receiving that money, would have a vested financial & jobs interest in the CONTINUATION and SUCCESS of those denominations. They would be inclined to ASSIST THEM in their endeavors.

This, too, would be unconstitutional, but it would be natural.

[xzins]

So, if the Pope felt like going to a good restaurant with you, he'd have to bum a few bucks?

We are simply discussing how available cash is labeled.

The Pope has ENORMOUS sums of available cash.

I have seen the gold room at Cologne Cathedral.

[xzins]

The constitution does not provide that you cannot be taxed for your gas consumption. In fact, many who read it say it favors sales taxes.

On the other hand, it does say that Congress can't prohibit my free exercise of religion.

If they tax my $10 gift by $1, then they've passed a law that says I cannot worship God with 100% of my money, but with only 90% of my money.

You are free, however, to change the Constitution. There is an amendment process.

On the other hand, is it your opinion that huge corporations have greater access to our government's centers of power partly because of their huge monetary contributions due to taxation; that the government is intimately concerned with their viability because of the jobs they provide, the revenue they generate?

Why would it not be the same with large denominations? The government, once it began receiving that money, would have a vested financial & jobs interest in the CONTINUATION and SUCCESS of those denominations. They would be inclined to ASSIST THEM in their endeavors.

This, too, would be unconstitutional, but it would be natural.

[Invincibly Ignorant]

This, too, would be unconstitutional, but it would be natural.

I would be in favor of changin the law. Your money is invested and you receive a return. Storing up treasures in heaven? keeping the facility afloat that you may receive spiritual benefit by attending? Its all the same.

[xzins]

The exemption of churches from taxation is the right answer, imo, if we seek to allow unhindered worship by believers, and if we seek to avoid powerful, financially based church lobbyists within our own government.

[David Allen]

We disagree. Besides, we're talking about preachers that live high on the hog, not preachers who do a little better than the average guy.

They're anathema to the teachings of Jesus, and therefore lousy examples.

[Osage Orange]

Good post....

[PetroniusMaximus]

"I've never seen a Catholic or Orthodox priest break down in tears to beg for money on their "talk show." "


Which is better, to beg for money or to sell forgivness?

[Osage Orange]

They're anathema to the teachings of Jesus, and therefore lousy examples.

Really?

Can you provide some examples of these "teachings"?

[Between the Lines]

But what I was addressing is that there is no basis that I know of in the NT for a church to be tax exempt

Render therefore unto Caesar the things which be Caesar's, and unto God the things which be God's. - Luke 20:25

I would think that the same scripture that says we are to pay taxes clearly shows that which belongs to God (the church) does not belong to the state, so is not taxable. The verse divides the two jurisdictions and shows who is to be in control of each.

[P-Marlowe]

We disagree. Besides, we're talking about preachers that live high on the hog, not preachers who do a little better than the average guy.

Describe the average guy. And would you begrudge any pastor who lived above that lifestyle? And what if he had an average salary, but made a fortune through outside investments or inheritance or book sales?

I think once we go down this road we are asking for trouble. If your pastor makes more than you, is that going to make you think less of him. A pastor should be judged according to his work, according to his faithfulness to the calling for which he has been called and not based upon his compensation package.

David and Solomon were two of the richest men who ever lived, yet they composed a large portion of our scriptures and Jesus is pleased to take his seat upon the throne of David, your namesake. Think about that.

[Wallace T.]

Have you ever heard of John Tetzel, the German Catholic priest who sold indulgences for money in a fund raising effort to help build St. Peter's Basilica in Rome? These abuses were a major motivation behind Martin Luther's Ninty-Five Theses, which was the seminal event of the Reformation. In more recent times, there was the Banco Ambroisano scandal, which involved Archbishop Paul Marcinkus, an American Catholic clergyman who also served as head of the Vatican bank.

Financial scandals are not limited to charismatic and Pentecostal clergy by any means, though the MSM and some Catholic apologists are unduly fixated upon it. Perhaps they would do well to remember Jesus' own words to the effect that before you criticize the speck in one man's eye, deal with the two by four in your own eye.

[PetroniusMaximus]

"I would think that the same scripture that says we are to pay taxes clearly shows that which belongs to God (the church) does not belong to the state, so is not taxable. The verse divides the two jurisdictions and shows who is to be in control of each."

It seems from the context that Jesus is saying that "money" has Caesar's image on it - therefore, ultimately it belongs to the State.

The implication is that the thing that bears God's image is the believer's heart - and that belongs to God alone.

[Protagoras]

Everyone in my congregation knows everything about every dime that is spent on anything. In fact, you don't need to be a member, you can walk in off the street and look at it if you wish.