Pope's Dying Hours Uplifted Church's Image

ABD/AP ^ | 04-03-05 | Richard Ostling

[Salvation]

Pope's Dying Hours Uplifted Church's Image

Pope John Paul II's Dying Hours Uplifted Image of Battered Roman Catholic Church He Led

Pope John Paul II gestures during his weekly general audience in the Paul VI hall at the Vatican, in this Sept. 4, 2002 file photo. Pope John Paul II, the Polish pontiff who led the Roman Catholic Church for more than a quarter century and became history's most-traveled pope, has died at 84, the Vatican announced in an e-mail Saturday, April 2, 2005. (AP Photo/Pier Paolo Cito, File)

By RICHARD N. OSTLING

The Associated Press

Apr 3, 2005 — The courage Pope John Paul II showed in his final days sparked a sustained outpouring of reverence both for him and the Roman Catholic Church at a time when the faith's image has been battered by scandal, parish closings and financial troubles.

Around the clock and around the globe, tributes on television newscasts and at public services gave the church a moment of nearly unfettered good will that likely to continue at least through the funeral ceremonies of the next week.

"Obviously, you never speak ill of the dead, or the dying. But I think this moment and this pope transcend that," said David Gibson, author of "The Coming Catholic Church."

Largely forgotten, for the moment, are liberal Catholics' long-standing criticisms of the pope's strict church policies and parishioners' lingering anger at bishops for the clerical sex abuse scandal that erupted three years ago in the United States, leading to bankruptcy in three dioceses.

Gibson thinks that the human drama of John Paul's decline his continued efforts to lead the church right up until his last hours "helps people move past a lot of the agony and bickering and pain and scandal of these recent years."

He and Chester Gillis, theology chairman at Georgetown University, agree that both liberals and conservatives have, in Gillis' words, "galvanized around the person, not necessarily the teaching or the discipline of the church that he maintained."

"Even though people disagreed with him on things, he was a remarkable world leader and communicator, an unusual intellect, a polyglot," Gillis said. "The combination of skills and gifts this man possessed was rare, and people appreciate that."

The lingering papal death watch produced warm tributes from politicians President Bush called him "a faithful servant of God and a champion of human dignity and freedom" on down to many ordinary parishioners.

The attention has not only been a boost for the church in the United States, but also in increasingly secular Europe, where the media have given events in the Holy See intense attention especially in countries with a Catholic tradition.

[Salvation]

For your reading and continued comments.

[Salvation]

**Belief gives color and meaning to life and to death, and even to suffering. When you have faith, you are no longer dealing with a flat, dull world. It is luminous with the presence of God, and holds the promise of a destiny in God’s hands. It brings life and verve to our existence. And it is always within reach of everyone.**

From another thread. Does that speak volumes to the Culture of Life example set for us by John Paul II or what?

[Salvation]

**Around the clock and around the globe, tributes on television newscasts and at public services gave the church a moment of nearly unfettered good will that likely to continue at least through the funeral ceremonies of the next week.**

This is true. Our priest this weekend said it this way:

One might think that the whole world is Catholic by watching the television.

[Salvation]

**the human drama of John Paul's decline his continued efforts to lead the church right up until his last hours "helps people move past a lot of the agony and bickering and pain and scandal of these recent years."**

Oh, I pray this is true!

[Caravaggio]

I think the Pope's patience, humility and endurance in his suffering said more to us than any encyclical he'd ever written on the subject. He was a living testimony to the Person of Christ and carrying one's cross.

[Salvation]

**He was a living testimony to the Person of Christ and carrying one's cross.**

Yes, absolutely. And especially to the handicapped and those who suffer openly. He with his Parkinson's and the bullet wounds after the attempted assassination.

Truly a gift as an example of how to die. May I be half as gracious and Christ centered in my dying hours.

[Salvation]

Last Moments Of John Paul II Described

[ConservativeLawyer]

Bump

[Gerard.P]

We are witnessing the hijacking of the Catholic Church Organization by the secular world. One step closer to the One World Religion pretending to be Catholic.

John Paul II has done incalculable damage to the Church and the World.

"He transcended his Catholic background"--Colin Powell

"He espoused a humanism that he didn't let the dogmas of his Church get in the way of." --Charles Krauthammer (paraphrase)

[murphE]

From the article:

"He and Chester Gillis, theology chairman at Georgetown University, agree that both liberals and conservatives have, in Gillis' words, "galvanized around the person, not necessarily the teaching or the discipline of the church that he maintained."

Interesting.

[Salvation]

**"He transcended his Catholic background"--Colin Powell **

I'd like to see the full context of this statement. I watched a little while this morning while Colin Powell was being interviewed on Fox News Channel and I heard nothing of the sort.

He was totally complimentary to to Pope.

[Salvation]

**"He espoused a humanism that he didn't let the dogmas of his Church get in the way of." --Charles Krauthammer (paraphrase)**

You say you are paraphrasing here. I can't imagine Krauhammer saying that the Pope didn't let dogma get in the way of???

Get in the way of what?

What is the full statement of Krauhammer?

It seems you are trying to diss the Pope.

[Gerard.P]

It was on Fox News yesterday or Friday. There was no more context to the statement they were final thoughts asked by Brit Hume.

I'm paraphrasing because I don't remember the exact order of the wording.

Krauthammer said, that JPII didn't let the dogmas of the Catholic Church get in the way of his humanism.

I think Krauthammer was right. But whereas he thinks this is great, I think it's a tragedy.

I'm not dissing the Pope. I simply think he was not good at being the Pope and has evoked enormous amounts of erroneous thinking about the Church, it's mission, the papacy, the nature of the papacy and the relationship of God to Man and the claims of the Catholic Church as the one true religion outside of which no one can be saved.

[Gerard.P]

By the way, Krauthammer mentioned JPII's humanism more than once in the whole show. So, I definitely know what his point was.

Krauthammer also thought "the Passion of the Christ"

[Salvation]

I didn't hear Krauthammer so I can't make a judgment on him. But I definitely disagree with you about John Paul II. I think history will prove you mistaken.

[Gerard.P]

oops.. didn't finish. Krauthammer thought "the Passion.." was anti-semitic. Rubbish of course.

[sinkspur]

I'm not dissing the Pope.

Coulda fooled me.

[Gerard.P]

It is history that makes me believe that JPII was not a good Pope.

All of the accolades he is being given are primarily secular. They have nothing to do with the Glory and the mission of the Papacy. Read the papal coronation oath and you'll see what the purpose of the papacy is.

As a priest said today, "His suffering over the last three days was his glory. Let us Pray that Mary came to him and obtained mercy for him before his judgement."

I find this instant canonization non-Catholic.

And I also think the title of "the Great" should be delayed at least. Since it is also being erroneously reported that only two Popes Leo and Gregory, were titled "the Great", When Nicholas the Great was also given that title.

Saint Pius X certainly would merit the title "the Great" before John Paul II. Read "Our Apostolic Mandate" and you'll be surprised at what a clear thinking and uncompromising Pope teaches.

[fortunecookie]

It seems he wanted to share it with us, to remind us it's a passing to new life. I'd always wanted to visit the Vatican and see him but have missed that opportunity. It was profoundly moving, the Holy Father's passing on the eve of Divine Mercy Sunday, a feast he was pleased to institute and devotion he worked to spread, during the Year of the Eucharist as proclaimed by him last fall while the crowds outide had just finished the rosary and sang and inside, Mass had just ended. And he chose to leave us with words of joy, he was peaceful and full of joy himself. We will miss him.

[Siobhan]

John Paul the Great, Apostle of the Gospel of Life, pray for us.

[Gerard.P]

We wish to draw your attention, Venerable Brethren, to this distortion of the Gospel and to the sacred character of Our Lord Jesus Christ, God and man, prevailing within the Sillon and elsewhere. As soon as the social question is being approached, it is the fashion in some quarters to first put aside the divinity of Jesus Christ, and then to mention only His unlimited clemency, His compassion for all human miseries, and His pressing exhortations to the love of our neighbor and to the brotherhood of men. True, Jesus has loved us with an immense, infinite love, and He came on earth to suffer and die so that, gathered around Him in justice and love, motivated by the same sentiments of mutual charity, all men might live in peace and happiness. BUT FOR THE REALIZATION OF THIS TEMPORAL AND ETERNAL HAPPINESS, HE HAS LAID DOWN WITH SUPREME AUTHORITY THE CONDITION THAT WE MUST BELONG TO HIS FLOCK, THAT WE MUST ACCEPT HIS DOCTRINE, THAT WE MUST PRACTICE VIRTUE, AND THAT WE MUST ACCEPT THE TEACHING AND GUIDANCE OF PETER AND HIS SUCCESSORS. Further, whilst Jesus was kind to sinners and to those who went astray, HE DID NOT RESPECT THEIR FALSE IDEAS, HOWEVER SINCERE THEY MIGHT HAVE APPEARED. He loved them all, but He instructed them in order to convert them and save them. Whilst He called to Himself in order to comfort them, those who toiled and suffered, IT WAS NOT TO PREACH TO THEM THE JEALOUSY OF A CHIMERICAL EQUALITY. Whilst He lifted up the lowly, IT WAS NOT TO INSTILL IN THEM THE SENTIMENT OF A DIGNITY INDEPENDENT FROM, AND REBELLIOUS AGAINST, THE DUTY OF OBEDIENCE. Whilst His heart overflowed with gentleness for the souls of good-will, He could also arm Himself with holy indignation against the profaners of the House of God, against the wretched men who scandalized the little ones, against the authorities who crush the people with the weight of heavy burdens without putting out a hand to lift them. He was as strong as he was gentle. HE REPROVED, THREATENED, CHASTISED, KNOWING, AND TEACHING US THAT FEAR IS THE BEGINNING OF WISDOM, AND THAT IT IS SOMETIMES PROPER FOR A MAN TO CUT OFF AN OFFENDING LIMB TO SAVE HIS BODY. Finally, HE DID NOT ANNOUNCE FOR FUTURE SOCIETY THE REIGN OF AN IDEAL HAPPINESS FROM WHICH SUFFERING WOULD BE BANISHED; BUT, BY HIS LESSONS AND BY HIS EXAMPLE, HE TRACED THE PATH OF THE HAPPINESS WHICH IS POSSIBLE ON EARTH AND OF THE PERFECT HAPPINESS IN HEAVEN: THE ROYAL WAY OF THE CROSS. These are teachings that it would be wrong to apply only to one's personal life in order to win eternal salvation; these are eminently social teachings, and they show in Our Lord Jesus Christ SOMETHING QUITE DIFFERENT FROM AN INCONSISTENT AND IMPOTENT HUMANITARIANISM. --Pope St. Pius X The Great.

[Gerard.P]

And now, overwhelmed with the deepest sadness, We ask Ourselves, Venerable Brethren, what has become of the Catholicism of the Sillon? Alas! this organization which formerly afforded such promising expectations, this limpid and impetuous stream, has been harnessed in its course by the modern enemies of the Church, and is now no more than a miserable affluent of the great movement of apostasy being organized in every country for THE ESTABLISHMENT OF A ONE-WORLD CHURCH which shall have neither dogmas, nor hierarchy, neither discipline for the mind, nor curb for the passions, and which, UNDER THE PRETEXT OF FREEDOM AND HUMAN DIGNITY, would bring back to the world (if such a Church could overcome) the reign of legalized cunning and force, and the oppression of the weak, and of all those who toil and suffer. --Pope St. Pius X The Great

[Siobhan]

Capitalisations of that sort are generally regarded as 'shouting' and are usually a tactic of extreme anti-Catholic calvinists on FR.

A pity that you should format such words of grace and power in such a way.

[murphE]

Pope St. Pius X, pray for the soul of your successor, Pope John Paul II.

[Gerard.P]

Capitalisations of that sort are generally regarded as 'shouting' and are usually a tactic of extreme anti-Catholic calvinists on FR.

It was unintentional. I didn't know the traditions of using upper case letters. Now that I know, I'll accept it rather than try to buck the tradition for the sake of change. I don't think Calvinists quote St. Pius X, possibly the greatest Pope in the History of the Church.

Did you know that he forbade people from publicly applauding him? Now that is papal humility.

[Gerard.P]

Amen to that. Bishop Wuerl of Pittsburgh has forbidden Requiem Masses from being said for JPII. Many Indult priests have been denied the right to say Requiems for the Holy Father according to the Old Rite. It's a shame. It's like they (those Bishops) want to deny him God's mercy.

[Siobhan]

I recall something about the applause but had thought it regarded another -- but it does sound like him - the greatest humility mixed with courage like steel.

[Gerard.P]

“These most crafty enemies have filled and inebriated with gall and bitterness the Church, the spouse of the immaculate Lamb, and have laid impious hands on her most sacred possessions. In the Holy Place itself, where the See of Holy Peter and the Chair of Truth has been set up as the light of the world, they have raised the throne of their abominable impiety, with the iniquitous design that when the Pastor has been struck, the sheep may be. --Pope Leo XIII

[St.Chuck]

I don't think Calvinists quote St. Pius X...

You are right. They prefer to quote scripture, but the intent and misrepresentation is identical.

Did you know that he forbade people from publicly applauding him? Now that is papal humility.

Do you really think the repression of public affection is genuine humility?

[St.Chuck]

I don't think Calvinists quote St. Pius X...

You are right. They prefer to quote scripture, but the intent and misrepresentation is identical.

Did you know that he forbade people from publicly applauding him? Now that is papal humility.

Do you really think the repression of public affection is genuine humility?

[Siobhan]

Bishop Wuerl of Pittsburgh has forbidden Requiem Masses from being said for JPII.

That is the work of the devil himself.

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

Bishop Wuerl of Pittsburgh has forbidden Requiem Masses from being said for JPII

Yet those bishops and cardinals are all over the media pretending to be good Catholics. Something about "they pay me lip service but their hearts are far from me" comes to mind.

[murphE]

I went to a requiem TLM Saturday for the Holy Father. It was the first time I saw black vestments, all very solemn and somber. The priest assured us that even though His Holiness' body was not present, he would still receive all of the graces.

[murphE]

Did you see, Cardinal Egan flap his jowls on Fox this morning? What a phony.

[St.Chuck]

Did you see, Cardinal Egan flap his jowls on Fox this morning? What a phony.

I didn't. What's phony?

[Desdemona]

Yet those bishops and cardinals are all over the media pretending to be good Catholics.

It IS rather annoying.

[Desdemona]

Did you see, Cardinal Egan flap his jowls on Fox this morning? What a phony.

No, but agreed.

[skr]

I don't much about the tradition of capitalizing a whole word, etc., as shouting, but it's harder to read for some reason than is the use of italics or boldface for emphasis. I appreciate your discussion of other popes' approaches, as I'm a Protestant who doesn't know much about the men who have occupied the Papacy. I remember a little of when he was made Pope.

[Salvation]

This is very difficult to read. And why all the caps? You are aware that on the internet caps basically mean you are yelling, aren't you?

[Salvation]

all the churches in our diocese, according to our priest, will be having a Mass for the Dead Tuesday evening for John Paul II.

I think it will probably happen all over since the Feast of the Annunciation falling on Good Friday has been transferred to April 4th. Tuesday is the first day/night they can do it.

[Salvation]

I saw Egan on Fox during the consecration in the Mass he was saying. It was amazing that they included the entire consecration of both the bread and wine.

All I could think -- as my jaw dropped -- was "Wow! The public is getting a dose of Catholicism today!"

[Salvation]

From Spirit Daily:

Medjugorje seer claims Pope appeared to him

www.spiritdaily.com

A friend of ours close to Medjugorje seer Ivan Dragicevic of Bosnia-Hercegovina writes, "At Ivan's apparition tonight (4/2) Ivan was recommending  intentions to Our Lady when the Pope appeared on her left. He was smiling, young and very happy. All in white with a long gold cape.  Our Lady said to Ivan:  'this is my son; he is with me.'  Personally, I have never seen Ivan so happy."

[Salvation]

Krauthammer: The Power of Faith

Sounds very positive about the Pope, don't you think? And I don't see your paraphrased quote.

[Wessex]

"All of the accolades he is being given are primarily secular."


Indeed. He possessed all the elements needed for this media driven age. A mass of condradiction, a tendency to experiment and shock, much vulgar posteuring and play-acting, an obvious desire to be all things to all men and an administrative failure. Quite a career for an impoverished Pole but the Church deserved better. This week we are going to hear so much rubbish, gratuitous emotionalism, political opportunism and gross dishonesty.

[Cronos]

well, you're entitled to your opinion. And I'm entitled to mine -- I disagree completely with you.

[murphE]

The paraphrased comment was from Fox news, with the Fox all stars, on televison, not an article.

[Gerard.P]

see post #25. If it's interpreted as yelling, Let's interpret it as the kind of yelling Bishop Sheen did. For emphasis only.

[St.Chuck]

What a phony.

I guess you have nothing to say to back up this calumny against a prince of the Church. Odd hobby some of you have to claim membership in an organization and spend your lives tearing it down. Talk about uyour phonies.

[murphE]

I could not begin to catalog the abominations of Cardinal Egan, the prince of the Church who chose to close down a self supporting landmark Church in Manhattan, in which was one of the 2 or 3 privileged altars in the whole country. The same Cardinal Egan who chose to put this privileged altar in storage somewhere in Staten Island. Look up some old threads (if any still exist many were pulled) or do a google search on him. He was no loyal friend or supporter of the Pope's, and is no loyal Prince of the Church that he pretends to be now.

Odd hobby some of you have to claim membership in an organization and spend your lives tearing it down.

Your error in logic is believing that criticizing churchmen is criticizing the Church, that recognizing enemies within for who they are is tearing down the Church.

[kstewskis]

It was amazing that they included the entire consecration of both the bread and wine.

All I could think -- as my jaw dropped -- was "Wow! The public is getting a dose of Catholicism today!"

Wasn't that amazing? I thought that was great.