Posted on 11/15/2004 9:09:07 AM PST by Dems_R_Losers
OK, I have had it with the ECUSA. It was the church that brought me to Christ, but now I believe it has abandoned Christ. I have moved away from my original parish anyway.
I do not wish to be a Catholic or Orthodox Christian. I need to find a church that allows the involvement of women in the priesthood and deaconate, but not practicing homosexuals. One that frowns on divorce and supports the pro-life movement. I like to dance and drink, so Southern Baptist is out. I'm not a pacifist so I cannot be a Quaker. Your advice is appreciated!
Check out the Reformed Episcopal Church ... if you can tolerate the older prayer book language.
I'm a Catholic, but for my money, you just can't go wrong with The Snake Handlers.
" WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
DIVERSITY IS STRENGTH"
Let me add my vote to yours. If I were to change denominations, I would definitely check to make sure that rattlesnakes were involved. I like to get a good bang for my buck.
Why do you need to find a church, if you already have your convictions?
Good Luck and blessings to you on your quest....
I don't think you will find any church that will fit your views. Your "theology" is a ill fitting jigsaw puzzle.
Don't discount Southern Baptists so quickly. It's drinking to excess (drunkenness) that is frowned upon, and our youth group has dances, as well as performs choreographed events in church services. I think your information may be a little outdated.
They do not permit priestesses.
Foursquare or Assembly of God. They are both fairly conservative bible wise except they allow women ministers. The AOG is pentecostal, but very from congregation to congregation in wierdness. The Foursquare are much less pentecostal, but still belive in "sign" gifts.
Ahem,
Homosexual "marriage" and abortion are not the problem, rather they are the fruits of an apostasy that were planted long ago. When scripture was declared flawed, when sections were dismissed outright, the downward spiral began.
IMHO it is far more important to search out a Church that clings to worshiping God and sees his word as inspired and inerrant rather than shopping from a doctrine of social works.
As far as women elders and ministers/pastors goes, isn't it interesting that every denomination which allows women to serve in those roles is being ripped apart by the homosexual and abortion issue. Just something to think about.
Evangelical Presbyterian might work for you. Check them out. http://www.epc.org/ If you shop carefully, you might even be able to find a PCUSA congregation where you feel comfortable, but you will have the same issues at the denominational level that you see in the Episcopal Church. Same with United Methodist. Christian Reformed just started ordaining women, and they haven't gotten to gay ordination yet, so they would be another possibility.
I had forgotten that the REC won't ordain women. The Charismatic Episcopal Church might, but I'm not certain of that. My own denomination -- The United Methodist Church -- ordained women (we have since the 1950s, and ordained our first woman Bishop in 1980). Contrary to some regrettable instances, the UMC doesn't allow the ordination of Self-Avowed Practicing Homosexuals, so you won't have to worry about an out-Bishop. When an Elder or Deacon comes out of the closet, and the Church courts work properly (as is the case 95% of the time ... you just don't hear about those cases because they don't make news), they are defrocked.
As for abortion, the UMC has been moving more and more toward a more conservative position; back in 1980 we affirmed that we were a pro-choice church, but since the late 1990s (and certainly since 2000) we have asserted that we totally reject partial birth abortion, and have also asserted that we oppose any abortion for birth control, gender selection, or economic convenience. Sadly, we are still, officially, pro-choice, but it's far more limited now, and I look for it to continue to be more and more limited in the future. Perhaps I'm optimistic, but I pray that within the next two General Conferences (either in 2008 or in 2012) we finally cut the last vestiges of financial support for pro-abortion organizations and will, without question, fully affirm a pro-life position.
The UMC has appreciation for the Sacramental life that is part of the Episcopalian tradition (not surprising, since we share the same roots), and -- depending upon the congregation -- you'll find liturgical forms of worship, as well as the more popular (current and trendy) Praise and Worship forms. There's a great amount of diversity when it comes to worship styles in the UMC, and one congregation can differ from another by a rather significant degree. This is true in terms of theological and social positions as well; the church which I pastor is a very conservative UMC, both socially and in terms of theology, while also being traditional and somewhat liturgical in worship forms -- we celebrate the Eucharist every Sunday in at least one worship service (in the morning on 1st and 3rd Sundays, and in the Evening on 2nd and 4th Sundays). I was appointed here because I'm known as a theological "traditionalist" (i.e., Wesleyan-Arminian Anglo-Catholic-Protestant)
I applaud DRL for seeking a new church, because a Christian's walk thru life is not meant to be a solo flight. We are meant for community; God created us to be in fellowship with other believers.
And seriously, DRL—if you're looking for a good, Christ-centered fellowship in the Anglican tradition, there are definitely some good ones out there...
Anglican Communion NetworkFor even more info, check with sionnsar; he now runs the Anglican ping list and has a website with additional conservative Anglican resources.
Reformed Episcopal Church
Anglican Church in America
United Episcopal Church
Anglican Catholic Church
American Anglican Council
May God bless you and guide you in your search, my FRiend!
"As far as women elders and ministers/pastors goes, isn't it interesting that every denomination which allows women to serve in those roles is being ripped apart by the homosexual and abortion issue. Just something to think about."
Feel compelled to chime in on this one...especially since I am both an erstwhile feminist female and former ECUSA. It is my considered opinion that ordination of female priests opened the door to the wholesale takeover of ECUSA by radical homosexuals, New Agers, & just plain old heretics bent on destroying the church. You know, history tends to repeat itself. The first and most ardent warriors for Black civil rights were the Suffragists and, later, the Women's Libbers - and not for purely atruistic reasons. These women actually believed that women's rights would ride on the coattails of the abolishonist and civil rights movements. Their error was in believing that if they supported the rights of Black people, Black people would, in turn, support them & their demands. That, of course, didn't happen & feminists felt betrayed. It's a history lesson that is oft repeated in feminist circles with the implication that "when we get ours, we won't forget the people who helped us get it." When these feminists "got theirs" in the form of women's ordination, it was the homosexual male priests, bishops, & closeted homos in the laity who made it happen. It's payback time. Now it is these same feminist priests (and homo clergy) who've orchestrated the greatest & most widespread heresy ever to infest the Christian faith.
I, also, urge Dems_R_Losers to re-consider his/her "litmus test" for finding a new church home. Traditional (aka "continuing")Anglican churches, of which there are many, encourage women's involvement in the church everywhere EXCEPT ordination to the priesthood or episcopate. If women's ordination is a dealbreaking issue for Dems_R_Losers, I can only conclude that he/she is not now (and probably never was) an Anglican. In that case, a nice Baptist church would do fine. Better to be a good Baptist than a half-baked Anglican.
Try the American Baptists. They allow for the ordination of women, but oppose homosexuality.
Try Presbyterian PCA. However, seeking a church that allows the involvement of women in the priesthood is merely jumping from one Bible rejecting church to another.
OK
I could have written this post! Thanks and I am reading the responses.
What a splendid idea!
Excellent observation. By their fruits you know them.
***I need to find a church that allows the involvement of women in the priesthood ***
If you choose a denomination like that, give yourself a decade and you'll be right back in the same position your in now.
a Church is not a building or an organization that pushes forward an agenda to build a Kingdom based upon Leadership and Laity. The Church will always be the bride of Christ and those who have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ the Son of God , belong to him. If your looking for fellowship and don't want all of the religious crap, ask God to bring people into your life , that want to get real and personal with you. People, who will go to bat for you and not condemn you but only build you up in the body. Stay away from religiousness because it teaches a mixed message. A message that says, if I do good then I will be saved. You ever wonder why Jesus said that sinners would be welcomed into the Kingdom before those who are self righteous? Sinners know that they need a savior, but the self righteous are their own. Trust the Holy Spirit to guide you and spend time in God's word. Remember in Christ there is no sin,so cling to Him alone.Claim the blood on your life.</p>
So, one that abandons the clear teaching of the Word of God in one unpopular respect, but holds to it in another?
Why not just stay where you are? They'll let you pick and choose which of God's words you like,a nd which you don't.
Dan
Biblical Christianity web site
Biblical Christianity message board
You need a good hands-raisin', tongues-speakin' evangelical church. Trust me. Best thing I ever did was begin attending evangelical churches. A personal relationship with Christ is emphasized.....and these churches are ALIVE, my friend.
Fellowship is nice, and organizationally, is good for the country.
Consider that Christ set up the Church as his Bride; He is the Bridegroom. An all male priesthood is not anything to do with the culture, nor with feminism. Reprogram yourself into a more spiritual way of thinking. Learn to lean on the male priesthood for worship; take your ministry talents to the Body of Christ as beloved Brothers and Sisters.
Seriously, this is not about careers and glass ceilings, and the male vs female war that diablos has set up. Come to the Anglican Catholic Church. It is lovely.
Boy, it's like a buffet line, isn't it? You should really examine what you want out of a religion.
Dear God,
I want everything to work according to my will, not yours.
Thanks,
Dems_R_Losers
I really do not think that you want a church, so forget it.
Well on that, I agree. But don't you believe it's important to belong to a community that welcomes you, affirms your faith, and helps you grow spiritually?
I can definitely sympathize with DRW; having been in "church" communities that are not spirit-filled, I can attest that it's frustrating. And no less frustrating is a "Christian" organization like the ECUSA whose leadership embraces false ideas and rejects Biblical truth.
All I'm saying is that finding a good church where you can flourish as a Christian is very important.
Uh, sorry that's DRL! Sorry—careless fingers :-Þ
The minute a woman is ordained as a pastor in the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod, it will split wide open. Jesus chose twelve men to lead His church. The Scriptures say that women should not be in a position of authority over men in the church and should not preach. If women are allowed into the pulpit, it tells you that the church is no longer following the Bible, and then it doesn't matter if you belong to it or not. On Judgement Day, Jesus will be hearing multitudes of these cafeteria "Christians" saying, "Lord! Lord!" but He will say, "I never knew you." Only those who follow the Word of God faithfully, without all the modern encroachments of a sinful society, are Jesus's disciples. (John 8:31)
I will try to do everything in my power to resist the slide off the deep end, and train my children to do the same, but I think it is coming nevertheless. We'll have to cross that bridge when we come to it. "Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof"
" It is my considered opinion that ordination of female priests opened the door to the wholesale takeover of ECUSA by radical homosexuals, New Agers, & just plain old heretics bent on destroying the church."
Bingo, bango, on target with high-order detonation.
"We used to joke good naturedly that you could get excommunicated for doing fisties or double bounces."
What in the world are "fisties" and "double bounces?"
With all respect I would suggest that we are called upon to conform ourselves to the Church, not the other way around. In the Orthodox Church where I worship, women are very, very active and important to the life of the Church. I find that in many areas of life well defined rules give us our greatest freedom. Paradoxical perhaps, but most great truths are.
http://www.ncccusa.org/members/index.html
My husband and I left the ELCA in which I had belonged all my life. We are now Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. What a relief!!! The difference is like night and day.
This thread is of special interest to me because I'm in the same position as Dems-R-Losers -- a disgusted Episcopalian looking for a new church. Anyway, I recall reading a comment made by a pro-gay advocate that "the same arguments used against ordaining homosexuals were used against ordaining women." Exactly.
Be encouraged, there is life after ECUSA...
agreed
IMHO it is far more important to search out a Church that clings to worshiping God and sees his word as inspired and inerrant rather than shopping from a doctrine of social works.
As far as women elders and ministers/pastors goes, isn't it interesting that every denomination which allows women to serve in those roles is being ripped apart by the homosexual and abortion issue. Just something to think about.
I'd disagree here GC - Free Methodism ordains women - yet has no problems with the issue of abortion or homosexuality
In fact were very conservative in this regard - moreso than other Protestant denominations (please correct me if Im wrong xzins)
A/331.2 Abortion.
The intentional destruction of human life is murder when any degree of malice or selfishness accompanies the decision and act. Therefore, induced abortion is morally unjustifiable except when the act has been decided upon by responsible and competent persons, including Christian and professional counsel, for the purpose of saving the life of a pregnant woman.
Abortion, when it serves the ends of population or birth control, personal preference of convenience, and social or economic security, must be considered as selfish and malicious. Therefore, the intentional abortion of nascent life from conception on, except when extreme circumstances requires termination of a pregnancy to save the life of the pregnant woman, must be judged to be a violation of God's command, "You shall not commit murder."
We recommend that Free Methodists offer compassionate alternatives and long-term care to women considering abortion. We recommend similar long-term care for all persons impacted by previous abortions. We also urge continuing support for those involved in parenting and in the adoption and fostering of children. While firmly opposed to abortion, we recognize that those whose views contrary to ours should be treated with respect and dignity and that God's forgiveness is offered to all.
19. HOMOSEXUAL BEHAVIOR
A/342. Homosexual behavior, as all sexual deviation, is a perversion of God's created order (Genesis 1-3). The sanctity of marriage and the family is to be preserved against all manner of immoral conduct (Exodus 22:16-17; Deuteronomy 22:23-28; Leviticus 20:10-16), thus the Free Methodist Church does not recognize the legitimacy or participation in the practice of same-sex marriage.
Homosexual behavior is contrary to the will of God as clearly stated in Scripture (Leviticus 18:22; 20:13; Romans 1:26-27; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10; 1 Timothy 1:8-10).
Persons with homosexual inclinations are accountable to God for their behavior (Romans 14:12).
The forgiving and delivering grace of God in Christ is all-sufficient for the homosexual (1 John 1:9; Hebrews 7:25; Luke 4:18; 1 Corinthians 6:9-11). The church has a personal and corporate responsibility to be God's instrument of healing, restoring love to the homosexual seeking recovery of Christian conduct and life-style (2 Corinthians 2:7-8).
The church opposes legislation which makes homosexual conduct or life-style legitimate.
The only bummer youll find disagreable is alcohol and dancing
10. MISUSE OF DRUGS
A/335.1. 1. Christians find that life is full, abundant, and free in Jesus Christ (John 8:36; 10:10). Therefore, our people abstain from whatever damages, destroys, or distorts His life in them. Illicit drugs are prime offenders. Marijuana, cocaine, and heroin, widely used in our time, cause untold damage to people and relationships. Such drugs restrict personal development, damage the body,and reinforce an unrealistic view of life.
2. Our people abstain from the use of alcoholic beverages (Mark 12:30-31) because Christ admonishes us to love God with all our being and our neighbor as ourselves. Alcohol, a legalized drug, is damaging to individuals, families, and society. It is unpredictably addictive and its destructive effects cannot be fully measured. Where it is used, it leaves a trail of broken marriages, family violence, crime, industrial loss, ill health, injury, and death. As concerned Christians, our people practice abstinence for the sake of health, family, and neighbors. Moreover, we see the adverse social consequences as so pervasive that we seek by abstaining to make a united social witness to the freedom Christ gives.
3. Our people refrain from the use of tobacco because Christians are to treat their bodies as sacred trusts. It is a major cause of a variety of cancers and other diseases, as well as an expensive and offensive addiction. Free Methodists take seriously the words of Paul, the apostle, "Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body" (1 Corinthians 6:19-20).
4. We caution our people against indiscriminate use of prescription and over-the-counter drugs because drug dependency of any kind inhibits fullness of life in Christ. Though the therapeutic value of such substances may be great, their potency, proliferation, and easy accessibility require that Christians be vigilant against their misuse.
5. We counsel our congregations to be understanding and supportive toward those who come to Christ with problems of addiction. We believe in Christ's power to deliver (Romans 6:13; Galatians 6:2). But we urge our people to recognize fully the addictive power of alcohol, tobacco, and other drugs, and to give whatever helps and support are needed while new Christians seek full deliverance.
6. As a further evidence of an awakened conscience, our people refrain from the cultivation, manufacture, or sale of any of these harmful substances.
2. Dancing.
In the Psalms, we are encouraged to praise God with songs, clapping, shouting, instruments, and dance. Christians throughout the ages have glorified God with bodily motions.
However, many modern forms of dance contribute to the life of the flesh rather than the life of the Spirit. The music is frequently designed to arouse sexual excitement, the atmosphere is conducive to drug and alcohol use, and dance steps and postures may be sexually provocative. We hold that such activities and their environments do not honor Christ and are contrary to the admonition of God's Word to avoid every kind of evil.
Now - that said - a taste of wine or a cigar at your childs birth - or a beer with some steamed clams or a dance at your kids wedding will certainly not damn you for eternity - moderation being the key.
True, but then again, I wasn't looking.
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