Posted on 11/10/2004 9:43:40 PM PST by Southern Sounder
If my life does not match up with what God's Word says about my life, the problem is not God's Word. The problem is me.
For generations now the church has been systematically molding and shaping scripture to fit the experiences of man. We no longer look to God's Word as our absolute source of truth, but rather we look to our life experiences and put our faith in these, and then make God's Word fit these experiences.
Let me give you an example. All through scripture we read of God as a healer of the physically infirmed. He is called Jehovah Rapha (the God who Heals) in the Old Testament. In Psalm 103 he is the God who "forgives all your sins and heals all your diseases". In Isaiah 53 we have the foretelling of exactly what the Messiah will accomplish on the cross. It tells us "He was wounded for our transgressions, bruised for our iniquities. The punishment that brought us peace was upon Him, and by his wounds we are healed." Not only do our sins get forgiven, but our peace is purchased and our healing is provided. All through the New Testament we find Jesus telling sick people that "your faith has healed you". In Acts, we see the disciples do the same thing, following in the footsteps of Jesus.
I have pages of scripture that testify to God's promise to heal us. Yet, many Christians would deny that it is God's will that His children be healed. This next point is very crucial: their belief is rooted, not in scriptural fact, but in life experiences that testify to something contrary to God's Word. Perhaps Uncle Jim died of cancer after much prayer on his behalf. Maybe a friend was stricken with a rare disease and never recovered. Because of these experiences people begin to elevate their experiences above God's Word and place their faith in these experiences as being more true than God's Word. The line goes something like this: "well it must have been God's will for them to die. Surely God will teach us a great lesson from this." Friends, how much more of a great lesson could be taught to the world if that person got off of their deathbed and lived in complete health? How many would be brought to Christ through such a miraculous event!
We must decide whom we will believe. Either we will believe God or our experiences. There is no middle ground. And if we believe our experiences, we have to rationalize away all of the scripture that speaks to God's promises to heal. If we choose to believe God, we must only read His Word and discover His requirement for that promise to come to pass. In every instance of healing, Jesus only required a person to "Believe". Many will say, "I believed and did not receive healing." Again we must ask, "Who do you believe?" If you believe your experience then you will say that since you believed and it didn't work, then it must be God's will for you to remain sick. If you believe God's Word you will say, "I did not believe, otherwise I would be healed."
This is no doubt coming as a shocking statement to many of you. Our Western Christianity has long forgotten how to rely utterly and completely upon the promises of God. What passes as belief to us, would have no doubt been mocked and scorned by the disciples. Today's Christianity cost us nothing. And because of this we pay the price of missing God's best. I know of Christian men in third world countries who travel to the US and visit churches from time to time. They are astonished that we don't have sick people healed in every church service and in every Christian home. You see, in third world countries, their very existence day to day depends on God's promises. They learn to believe early and are not indoctrinated with denominational dogma that would diminish the Word and make it more "palatable" for today's "refined" American Christian.
Healing is but one issue on which the church has failed to believe God. The principle, however is the same in each instance. We must believe the Word over our experiences. So, I would like to challenge you to allow God's Word to be you final arbiter on truth. Do not allow your experiences to pull you away from God's truth. Believe His Word! If God says it, that settles it. Once you believe this, all that is left is to discover where you have fallen short of God's best. We must take responsibility as Christians for our shortcomings. God has not changed. It is we who stray from Him. In the Words of the great minister Smith Wigglesworth, our life's pursuit in regard to God's promises should be "Only Believe".
Sounder, thx, later
The writer of the third gospel was a physician.
Many physicians and medical missionaries are called by God to help heal people physically with medicines and treatments and surgeries available in their particular era of time.
God is not at odds with medicine.
However, I will agree on one point.
When many people started to live a long time due to sanitation and medical practices of modern nations, they began to feel they didn't need God, as young people often feel immortal and live in denial that there will be an ultimate death and judgment.
Like the tower of Babel, medicine, science and engineering cannot replace the need for God and salvation through Jesus Christ.
So well put patriciaruth. Just lovely.
Well said patriciaruth. I have no issue with medicine either. God has given us the ability to discover new ways to treat the sick. But when all the medicines have failed, there is still a hope. Our hope is in the completed work of Jesus Christ on the Cross.
Deut. 8:17, 18 MSG:17. If you start thinking to yourselves, "I did all this. And all by myself. I'm rich. It's all mine!"-
18. well, think again. Remember that GOD, your God, gave you the strength to produce all this wealth so as to confirm the covenant that he promised to your ancestors--as it is today.
Oh, you are soooo right!
My grandfather was an Assemblies of God minister for many decades, very old-style Pentecostalism.
Recently he had a stroke, and he sits around in his wheelchair now wondering why he didn't have enough faith to stay well. Grandma is going deaf, but she won't wear a hearing aid because she thinks it would show a lack of faith.
These are very evil teachings indeed.
Good morning! Both arguments are very good. Let me start with the suffering argument. I absolutely agree that as Christians we will suffer. Scripture is clear on this. However, if we are to believe God's Word to be truth and infallible, which I do, then all of His Word must work together in harmony. That means we can't throw out hundreds of scriptures on God's will to heal because of those that talk about suffering. Again, we must deal with God's Word. Yes there will be suffering and yes be can be healed. As for Job, it you read the entire story you will see that God not only healed him after his suffering, but restored to him the things he lost (some of which, 10 fold). As for Jesus suffering on the cross, it is precisely because of this suffering that we can ask and expect God to heal us. Again, read Isaiah 53.
Lastly, I would ask you again to make your arguments based on God's Word. I've never come across a scripture that says, "And Jesus did not heal him, for it was the Father's will that he should perish." If that scripture exists, or any like it, I will take my post down and change my belief. I am simply basing what I believe soley on the Word of God and not experiences.
Listen, I know sickness. My Mom was sick, very sick, for ten years before we began to understand the principle of healing. I am so thankful that she is now healed of what doctors considered incurable.
If all we had ever seen was God's healing work in practice, as it ocurred in Biblical times, and as it occurs all over the third world (and in America as well) today, we would never question this. Did you know there is more scripture that talks about healing than salvation? It's true.
I certainly didn't mean for this to be a referendum on healing. But, if you look at the arguments made against what I've said, except for the Job and Jesus references, they are all rooted in experience, not the Word.
I'm not advicating that you throw your hearing aids away or not seek treatment. God can use anything to set us free. All I'm saying is ask God to show you in His Word his will on all of his promises. If you look at the Word he will guide you. I used to argue against this teaching until I asked the Holy Spirit to show me what the Word said, without me making my mind up prior. After examining scripture, there can be no question on his will concerning healing.
Have a great day all!
Good morning! Both arguments are very good. Let me start with the suffering argument. I absolutely agree that as Christians we will suffer. Scripture is clear on this. However, if we are to believe God's Word to be truth and infallible, which I do, then all of His Word must work together in harmony. That means we can't throw out hundreds of scriptures on God's will to heal because of those that talk about suffering. Again, we must deal with God's Word. Yes there will be suffering and yes be can be healed. As for Job, it you read the entire story you will see that God not only healed him after his suffering, but restored to him the things he lost (some of which, 10 fold). As for Jesus suffering on the cross, it is precisely because of this suffering that we can ask and expect God to heal us. Again, read Isaiah 53.
Lastly, I would ask you again to make your arguments based on God's Word. I've never come across a scripture that says, "And Jesus did not heal him, for it was the Father's will that he should perish." If that scripture exists, or any like it, I will take my post down and change my belief. I am simply basing what I believe soley on the Word of God and not experiences.
Listen, I know sickness. My Mom was sick, very sick, for ten years before we began to understand the principle of healing. I am so thankful that she is now healed of what doctors considered incurable.
If all we had ever seen was God's healing work in practice, as it ocurred in Biblical times, and as it occurs all over the third world (and in America as well) today, we would never question this. Did you know there is more scripture that talks about healing than salvation? It's true.
I certainly didn't mean for this to be a referendum on healing. But, if you look at the arguments made against what I've said, except for the Job and Jesus references, they are all rooted in experience, not the Word.
I'm not advicating that you throw your hearing aids away or not seek treatment. God can use anything to set us free. All I'm saying is ask God to show you in His Word his will on all of his promises. If you look at the Word he will guide you. I used to argue against this teaching until I asked the Holy Spirit to show me what the Word said, without me making my mind up prior. After examining scripture, there can be no question on his will concerning healing.
Have a great day all!
Could you explain this a bit more...especially the first sentence, "sanctified by the curcifixtion"??
Becky
Paradoxically, the scriptures that support your arguments have already been the object of that "molding and shaping".
I'm not quite sure I understand....there are not too many ways to interpret, "Go, said Jesus, your faith has healed you". There are not too many ways to "shape and mold" "By his wounds we are healed". These scriptures (and all healing scriptures that I know) are taken quite literally and that, too me, is really the only way they can be read.
First of all, I'm glad your Mom was healed.
I believe that God can and will heal people if He SO CHOOSES. St. Paul asked to be healed of his "thorn in the flesh", but was NOT. God's answer? "My Grace is sufficient for you". Most of Jesus deciples were put to death in horrible ways, St. Peter was crucified upside down. Doesn't sound like a "health and wealth" or a "name it and claim it" Gospel was in effect back then, was it? Many Christians in Africa are sick, dying and engaged in warfare against satanic fascists, do they lack faith? Hardly, some of the greatest Christians I know are African.
Next, read my post closely. My grandparents are going into their sunset years believing they are being REJECTED BY GOD because they are declining in health. they will probably die thinking the same. They were taught these lies by Kenneth Hagin and other false new age spiritist Pentecostals. Therefore, I brook no compromise with false teaching.
There are lots of scriptures in the Old Testament that fall under the Mosaic Law that are directed toward the seed of Abraham. Some may pertain to Christians, many do not. Context is important. We must have a proper outlook on what we have been promised. Jesus said "in this world you will have tribulation."
God allows evil and sickness. To what purpose I don't know.
The process of "shaping and molding" was going on generations before the translation and version you're reading, and it is itself a product of that.
I'm certainly not an advocate of "name it, claim it". I am an advocate of believing only what the Word says. As for Paul's thorn, he tells us what that thorn was. He said "a demon, a messenger of Satan was sent to torment me". That doesn't qualify as a disease. At the very least it can be said there is a possiblility the thorn was something other than sickness.
As for God choosing to heal, the Word says, "I am God, I do not change". If Jesus truly bore our sin and sickness on the cross, then healing is for all who beleive. Sickness was part of the curse of sin, therefore, by definition, it must be dealt with on the cross for Jesus' sacrifice to be complete.
Why is it that we have no problem with the fact that God requires us to "believe" to receive eternal life (John 3:16). We don't call the teaching that we must believe for our salvation "cruel" or "evil". Why, then, do we do this with healing? Again, because we base our belief on our experiences. Salvation is something not seen. With healing, it is tangible.
As for Mosaic promises......the cross does not fall under this category.
Again, I'm getting arguments based on experience and not God's Word.
What are we to do with all of the healing scriuptures? Don't you think if God didn't ALWAYS want us well, He would have given many examples of Christians who believed, yet were not healed? Why did He only give us examples of Jesus healing? Jesus never turned away ANYONE who came to Him for healing. If Jesus is truly "the same yesterday, today, and forever" then why would He now be acting contrary to what we see in scripture? The only answer is that we have not believed His Word. Jesus said any man who doubts "should not expect to recieve anything from God".
I'm enjoying these thought provoking conversations. You guys are great!
Let me make a correction. It was not Jesus who said "anyone who doubts should not expect to recieve anything from God". This one one of the New Testament writers who said this. My fault on the quote.
Physical death was also one of the results of the curse of sin. Obviously people still die. That is tangible, no?
you are correct sir. But Jesus never promised that we would not die a physical death. He DID promise to heal us. That is a great point though.
My problem is that "health and wealth" Gospel devotees have wreaked all sorts of harm with these teachings. God is not a magic genie wanting you to have a cadillac and promising to take away every sickness and trouble in this world. Eventually He will deal with them.
If Jesus said that each and every problem in the world would be solved for Christians right away, then His disciples got a bum deal. So did Christians under Nero, Diocletian, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Etc. (It matters little whether Christians suffer under oppressive evil or oppressive disease, the result is the same.)
So experience is a valid means of judging your particular interpretation of God's Word. I don't disbelieve God, I disbelieve YOU based on evidence to the contrary.
You see when you have a theory you claim always is true, only one counterexample is needed to disprove it. Since a great host of very saintly Christians died from sickness in the past, and continue to do so today, I am forced to conclude either they were faithless, or you are wrong.
I choose the latter.
I do not believe in the "health and wealth" gospel as I understand it from your average televangelist. God is certainly not a magic genie. But, He is also not a liar. And if He makes a promise He will keep it.
I would disagree with you that experience can be a barometer when it doesn't agree with the Word.
I agree that all problems wil no go away. Suffering will occur. But if God has made a promise on a specific type of suffering, in this case healing, then we can believe that He will keep it.
Think about this. We all believe that 2+2=4. If someone comes along and says "No! it's 5!", we must make a decision. We must go back to what we beleive is true. If our standard is the Word, it can't also be our experience. It is one or the other.
Is it not just possible, that God wasn't joking when he said we must believe and not doubt? Why can't we just accept that instead of looking for ways around it.
As for saintly people who died of disease, where is that in scripture? I think you are referring to people throughout the ages who've died, not anyone in the Word. Again, my faith is not in these people or there experiences. It is in God's Word.
I believe God's Word is ultimate truth. Therefore, when I see something contrary to it, I go back to the Word. Do I always understand it? Of course not! But I do know what the Word says.
Again, we are talking experiences. Experiences are fine but I will not put my faith in them over God's Word.
I certainly don't expect to change your mind on this. This is a touchy subject.
Could you give me the scripture you use to back this belief up with?
No doubt Christ suffered on the cross. But the suffering was not the point. His death was the point. His death is what makes us holy, not His suffering.
The sacraifices the Jews did as an offering for their sins is a picture of what is important about the crucifixtion. It was the death of these sacrifices that pardoned sins of Jews for a year. Those sacrifices did not take sins away, Christ's "death" did, forever, not His suffering. His death scantifies those who beleive that His death was for their sins.
Read Hebrews 10.
Becky
thank you for such an inspirational post.
In reading the responses, especially regarding suffering
I wonder if that is why Christian Conservatives keep quiet on so many issues. It's been all gloom and doom and they search for it's meaning in Revelations instead of actively fighting it.
This presidential election shows what we can do when we stand together against evil. Because so many came out and voted there is hope for our children and grandchildren.
Thanks for the positive response Recall. I'm glad it made some sense to you. While I do believe some types of suffering is going to occur in a Christian's life, you are so right in your statement. Christians all too often just give up and chalk up all events that occur in life to "God's will". We do tend to just "wait on Jesus to return" instead of actively engaging our enemy who seeks up like a Lion to destroy us. We are in a battle, and it is not just for our health, but for the lives and minds of our children and our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ.
I also agree with you concerning the election. What an awesome display of the power of prayer and putting feet to our faith.
God Bless!
Yes..and in your post you have
We must take responsibility as Christians for our shortcomings
We did when we went to the polls, this is an example of showing our Faith and walking in it. Faith without works is dead..
Perhaps I was not as clear as I should have been. The crucifixion (Jesus' death upon the cross) sanctified suffering.
Death is the ultimate suffering, isn't it? Isn't Hell called death? Did not God tell Eve she would suffer "the death?"
John 12:24 - unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone and bears no fruit.
Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
2 Corinthians 1:5
For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also aboundeth by Christ.
1:6
And whether we be afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effectual F1 in the enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer: or whether we be comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation.
1:7
And our hope of you is stedfast, knowing, that as ye are partakers of the sufferings, so shall ye be also of the consolation.
"I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live." --Deuteronomy 30:19
This is an exquisite exchange. I also believe the argument of God's Word vs. our experiences to be of primary importance if we ever expect to grow in our Christian walk. In Christianity, there must be a presence of absolutes.
The problem with experiences is that everyone has a different one. Everyones viewpoint can be relative to their experiences... or their feelings. In the pursuit of understanding God's Word, and therefore His will, we must take the position of giving Him the first place in our lives. Giving Him first place by definition means that we give His Word first place. In John 1, the Word is given equal standing with God.
We must believe His Word over our feelings, over our experiences, and yes, even over our current circumstances. All those things are influenced by external things. His Word, like Him, never change. They stand forever.
On the issue of suffering, I think another point should be tabled. The sufferings of Christ speak of persecutions, trials, and tribulations. Christ did not suffer at the hands of sickness. He was despised and rejected. Beaten and ridiculed. He was not afflicted with leprosy. He was tempted, even as we experience today, but these temptations only resulted in victory - not defeat. The sufferings of Christ may result in martyrdom. Many of the apostles experienced this. But, we can't draw equalities from death by the hands of men, to sickness and disease that come upon us.
Paul spoke of the sufferings of Christ. He certainly shared in them. Stoned and left for dead, shipwrecked 3 times, beaten with rods, 5 times he got 39 lashes, imprisoned, and various other dangers. Very important what you don't see in any of his lists, and that is sickness. Paul never counted this as a part of sharing in the sufferings of Christ.
How could we include things in "sufferings of Christ", that Christ himself never suffered? Even His death on the cross, as grueling and cruel as it was, was not the result of anything related to a physical infirmity. But, it is this glorious death on the cross that has set us free from so many things. It is a great honor to suffer for Christ. It always will be. His sufferings are a great refining fire for us. They will draw us toward Him, and drive out the things that keep us from becoming like Him. It will only be His Spirit that produces holiness in our lives - that holiness that fulfills His righteous requirement - but without His sufferings, His church will not know the wonderful greatness and exceeding joy of serving Him.
Apologies to all - this got really long. But, thanks to all for a great opportunity to sharpen our understanding of God's Word.
Thanks for the great response Hunkinator. You said it better than I could.
Amen - eternally ours!
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