Posted on 06/17/2004 2:39:49 PM PDT by PetroniusMaximus
Perhaps so, but knowledge and holiness are not static qualities. Obviously, in the context of the quotation I cited, his hang-up was on the extra-biblical notion of baptism removing original sin. With that unbiblical notion constantly nagging at his mind he felt compelled to live a legalist life based on the fact that he was putatively capable on his own power through baptism to live a life of perfection. Once that unbiblical notion through true knowledge of Scripture was taken away he is now able to live a life of freedom in Christ.
What nonsense. The last thing the Church teaches is that baptism enables you through your own power to live a life of perfection. Removing original sin has nothing to do with enabling someone to live to perfection. A stunning ignorance of basic teaching.
If a lack of original sin meant we could live perfectly, then Adam and Eve never would have fallen. It's elementary.
SD
Ahhhhh!? You want to reconsider that fallacious argument? Are you saying that Adam and Eve never had a chance to live a perfectly obedient life? Lack of original sin presents the opportunity to live a perfectly obedient life. Original sin means that opportunity is lost. Now, if the stain of original sin is removed at baptism do I not now have the opportunity to live a perfectly obedient life?
Your fallacious argument? Yes.
Are you saying that Adam and Eve never had a chance to live a perfectly obedient life? Lack of original sin presents the opportunity to live a perfectly obedient life. Original sin means that opportunity is lost
Exactly right.
Now, if the stain of original sin is removed at baptism do I not now have the opportunity to live a perfectly obedient life?
Yes, you do have the opportunity. But not, as you put it, and even highlighted it, he was putatively capable on his own power through baptism to live a life of perfection
Words mean things. Lacking original sin doesnt' mean that you can on your own power live a perfect life. If this ex-priest thought so, and if you think this is what Catholics teach, you are sorely mistaken.
If we believed that, why would we have the other sacraments, like Eucharist to give us strength, or Confession to heal us when we err? If we thought a life of perfection under your own power was capable with just baptism.
It's evidence of not understanding or not thinking through Catholic teaching.
SD
lockeliberty asks: "Are you saying that Adam and Eve never had a chance to live a perfectly obedient life?"
Sooooothing Dave responds: "Exactly right."
lockeliberty wonders if Soooothing Dave is a closet hyper-Calvinist?
Besides, the issue of baptism removing original sin as an unbiblical notion has yet to be addressed by the contenders against this admirable man. Now that the Sacrament and confession has been brought to the table- does that mean after each participation in these events it acts like baptism in that sins are now removed, the slate cleaned, the opportunity again exists for perfection? Is there some point in which we can rest in God? or is it always about the next Sacrament and confession?
That's funny. I abhor Calvinism, but recognize it as an attractive philosophy.
Now that the Sacrament and confession has been brought to the table- does that mean after each participation in these events it acts like baptism in that sins are now removed, the slate cleaned, the opportunity again exists for perfection?
Confession wipes away further sin. Eucharist gives us strength to resist future sin. Yes, the opportunity exists for perfection.
If you are not striving for perfection, what are you doing? Stagnating? Falling into sin?
Is there some point in which we can rest in God?
Um, Heaven. Eternal rest grant unto thee, etc.
or is it always about the next Sacrament and confession?
Is there some time we can stop eating, or is there always going to be a next meal? What a silly question.
Sacraments are not burdens that must be endured, they are gifts God gives us to empower us to live a life worthy of the name "Christian."
SD
After (all these) prophetic and evangelical and apostolic writings (which we have set forth above), on which the Catholic Church by the grace of God is founded, we have thought this (fact) also ought to be published, namely that, although the universal Catholic Church spread throughout the world has the one marriage of Christ, nevertheless the holy Roman Church has not been preferred to the other churches by reason of synodical decrees, but she has held the primacy by the evangelical voice of the Lord and Savior saying: Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it, and I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth, it shall be bound also in heaven, and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven. There is added also the association of the most blessed Paul the Apostle, the vessel of election, who not at a different time, as the heretics say, but at the one time, on one and the same day, while contending for the prize together with Peter was crowned with a glorious death under Caesar Nero in the City of Rome; and equally have they consecrated the above-mentioned Church of Rome to Christ the Lord and have raised it above all other cities in the whole world by their presence and their venerable triumph.Accordingly the see of PETER the Apostle of the Church of Rome is first, having neither spot, nor wrinkle, nor anything of this kind. But the second see at Alexandria was consecrated in the name of blessed PETER by Mark his disciple and evangelist ... but the third in honor is considered the see of the most blessed Apostle PETER at Antioch ... (St. Gelasius I, Dz 163) [495 AD]
No need to parse. :)
***There is only one Judge of motives. ***
Yes, and this same Judge has given us prior warning as to how he will judge us and on what basis he will accept or reject us.
He has done so with the intention that if we judge ourselves then we will not be judged...
"But if we judged ourselves, we would not come under judgment. When we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world." I Cor 11
***Because He has made me worthy. Not cause He pretends I am.***
I doubt you would claim to be worthy if you were in the presence of God Almighty.
"I wept and wept because no one was found who was worthy ...
Then one of the elders said to me, "Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed....
Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. In a loud voice they sang:
"Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain,
to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength
and honor and glory and praise!"
In the OT, when the sacrifical lamb was slaughtered, do you think God "pretended" that it was the lamb who committed the sin and then "pretended" the supplicant was, in reality, without guilt?
No, the Roman Church was the head, as documents from the period clearly show. As for the claim that the Catholic Church was established by Constantine, that demonstrates an appalling lack of knowledge about Church history.
I assume you realize that the rest of Christianity does not agree with the Roman interpretation of this verse.
They did until the schism.
For if, indeed as you assert, some sin has risen among them, a judicial investigation ought to have been made according to the ecclesiastical canon, and not in this manner. Everyone should have written to us, in order that thus what was just might be decided by all; for the bishops were the ones who suffered, and it was not the ordinary churches that were harassed, but which the apostles themselves governed in person. Yet why has nothing been written to us, especially regarding the Alexandrian church? Or do you not know that it is the custom to write to us first, and that here what is just is decided? Certainly if any suspicion of this nature did fall upon the bishop of that city, the fact should have been written to this church. (St. Julius I, Letter to the Antiochenes, DZ 57a) [341 AD]
No one doubts, but rather it has been known to all generations, that the holy and most blessed Peter, chief and head of the Apostles, the pillar of the faith, the foundation stone of the Catholic church, received the keys of the kingdom from our Lord Jesus Christ the Savior and Redeemer of the human race, and that the power of binding and loosing sins was given to him, who up to this moment and always lives in his successors, and judges. (Speech of Phillip, legate of Rome, at the Ecumenical Council of Ephesus, DZ 112) [431 AD]
For if where two or three are gathered together in his name, there he says he is in the midst of them, how great an intimacy will He show in regard to the five hundred and twenty priests, who have preferred to both native land and to labor the knowledge of confession for Him. Over these you ruled as a head over the members, among those holding office, displaying your good will. (Letter of the Council of Chalcedon to Pope St. Leo I, DZ 149) [451 AD]
[Our] first safety is to guard the rule of the right faith and to deviate in no wise from the ordinances of the Fathers; because we cannot pass over the statement of our Lord Jesus Christ who said: "Thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my church" ... These [words] which were spoken, are proved by the effects of the deeds, because in the Apostolic See the Catholic religion has always been preserved without stain. Desiring not to be separated from this hope and faith and following the ordinances of the Fathers, we anathematize all heresies, especially the heretic Nestorius, who at one time was bishop of the city of Constantinople, condemned in the Council of EPHESUS by the blessed CELESTINE, Pope of the City of Rome, and by the venerable man Cyril, high priest of the City of Alexandria. Similiarly anathematizing both Eutyches and Dioscorus of Alexandria condemned in the holy Synod of CHALCEDON which we follow and embrace, which following the sacred Council of NICEA proclaimed the apostolic faith, we detest both Timothy the parricide, surnamed the Cat, and likewise his disciple and follower in all things, Peter of Alexandria. We condemn, too, and anathematize Acacius, formerly bishop of Constantinople, who was condemned by the Apostolic See, their confederate and follower, or those who remained in the society of their communion, because Acacius justly merited a sentence in condemnation like theirs in whose communion he mingled. No less do we condemn Peter of Antioch with his followers, and the followers of all mentioned above.Moreover, we accept and approve all letters of blessed LEO the Pope, which he wrote regarding the Christian religion, just as we said before, following the Apostolic See in all things, and extolling all its ordinances. And, therefore, I hope that I may merit to be in the one communion with you, which the Apostolic See proclaims, in which there is the whole and true strength of the Christian religion, promising that in the future the names of those separated from the communion of the Catholic Church, that is, those not agreeing with the Apostolic See, shall not be read during the sacred mysteries. But if I shall attempt in any way to deviate from my profession, I confess that I am a confederate in my opinion with those whom I have condemned. However, I have with my own hand signed this profession of mine, and to you, HORMISDAS, the holy and venerable Pope of the City of Rome, I have directed it. (Formula of St. Hormisdas, subscribed to by all the Oriental bishops, by the Emperor Justinian, by Epiphanius, John and Menna, Patriarchs of Constantinople, and by all the Fathers of the Eighth Ecumenical Council, the fourth of Constantinople, DZ 171-172) [517 AD]
We are obliged to yield many things to the Papists—that with them is the word of God, which we received from them; otherwise we should have known nothing at all about it. (Martin Luther, Commentary on John)
As for the continued assertion that Rome was established in 1054, in fact the Orthodox Church was established in the years following when it rebelled against the supreme pastor of the flock, whose supremacy she had previously recognized as I have demonstrated above.
***Could it be that he is saying if we judge ourselves we may not come under judgment because we are not truly capable of knowing in all truth how to judge ourselves,***
??? I fail to see what you are saying. Are you saying we shouldn't judge our own motives? And why are you directing this topic of judgement to me? Is it because I am asking people to examine their lives and see if they are truly "reborn" people?
***So I will say again: There is only one Judge of motives, since motives originate and reside in the heart of man where only God can see, as He has clearly told us.***
"Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you--unless, of course, you fail the test?"
2 Corinthians 13
Hard to miss that point...
Oh Dave, I fail to find your words soothing. But here are some words that I do find soothing and restful.
"So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.
For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.
Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience....
Concerning him we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the oracles of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food....
But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way.
For God is not unjust so as to forget your work and the love which you have shown toward His name, in having ministered and in still ministering to the saints.
And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence so as to realize the full assurance of hope until the end,
so that you will not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises....
For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens; who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. For the Law appoints men as high priests who are weak, but the word of the oath, which came after the Law, appoints a Son, made perfect forever....
For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;
nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own.
Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,
so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him....
For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.
And the Holy Spirit also testifies to us; for after saying,
"THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM
AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD:
I WILL PUT MY LAWS UPON THEIR HEART,
AND ON THEIR MIND I WILL WRITE THEM,"
He then says,
"AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS
I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin.
By Faith Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, ... died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed they were strangers and exiles on earth. Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
For consider Him who has endured such hostility by sinners against Himself, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart....
Do not be carried away by varied and strange teachings; for it is good for the heart to be strengthened by grace, not by foods, through which those who were so occupied were not benefited....
Through Him then, let us continually offer up a sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of lips that give thanks to His name.
And do not neglect doing good and sharing, for with such sacrifices God is pleased....
Now the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great Shepherd of the sheep through the blood of the eternal covenant, even Jesus our Lord,
equip you in every good thing to do His will, working in us that which is pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be the glory forever and ever. Amen."
According to the anonymous writer of Laon, Waldo heard, one Sunday in May or April of the famine year (1176), a traveling minstrel singing on the street the last stanzas of the old poem of St. Alexis [who had given away his property and gone on a pilgrimage to the Holy Land, and thereby had won great peace]. He invited him into his house and on the following morning asked a theologian the shortest and best way to God. The answer was that of Christ to the rich young man. Waldo, giving a portion of his property to his wife, sold the remainder, bestowing the greater part of the proceeds on the poor; and later casting the balance upon the street, he begged alms, and soon afterward took a formal vow of poverty. In the following year he was joined by others at Lyons, and gradually the " poor men " began to castigate the sins of both themselves and others. In the spring of 1179 Waldo went to the Lateran Council at Rome, where Alexander III. confirmed his vow of poverty, but forbade him and his companions to preach, unless expressly invited by the priests. This was long observed by the Waldenses, but finally they disobeyed the mandate, only to be involved in ruin for their fault ... The anonymous writer of Laon, furnishing the most elaborate, immediate, and probable source, followed by Stephen, it may be concluded that the Waldenses originated according to the facts stated by the former; (The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge, Vol. XII, p. 241)
Simply put,
No one doubts, but rather it has been known to all generations, that the holy and most blessed Peter, chief and head of the Apostles, the pillar of the faith, the foundation stone of the Catholic church, received the keys of the kingdom from our Lord Jesus Christ the Savior and Redeemer of the human race, and that the power of binding and loosing sins was given to him, who up to this moment and always lives in his successors, and judges. (Speech of Phillip the Roman legate at the Council of Ephesus, DZ 112)
They are described as "heretics," but many of their beliefs, although denounced by Rome, are in fact Biblical, and they used Scripture to justify their beliefs.
You must be referring to these folks.
But here some one perhaps will ask, Since the canon of Scripture is complete, and sufficient of itself for everything, and more than sufficient, what need is there to join with it the authority of the Church's interpretation? For this reason,--because, owing to the depth of Holy Scripture, all do not accept it in one and the same sense, but one understands its words in one way, another in another; so that it seems to be capable of as many interpretations as there are interpreters. For Novatian expounds it one way, Sabellius another, Donatus another, Arius, Eunomius, Macedonius, another, Photinus, Apollinaris, Priscillian, another, Iovinian, Pelagius, Celestius, another, lastly, Nestorius another. Therefore, it is very necessary, on account of so great intricacies of such various error, that the rule for the right understanding of the prophets and apostles should be framed in accordance with the standard of Ecclesiastical and Catholic interpretation. (St. Vincent of Lerins, Commonitory, II)
It's fitting that you heretics have men like Arius, Sabellius, and Pelagius for your fathers in the faith.
As your own source noted, no ecumenical council recognized the supremacy of the Roman patriarch.
Nicea's canon 6, as St. Robert Bellarmine rightly explains:
Let the Bishop of Alexandria continue to govern these provinces, because this is also the Roman Pontiff's custom; that is, because the Roman Pontiff, prior to any synodical enactment, has repeatedly recognized the Alexandrian Bishop's authority over this tract of country. (de Romano Pontifice, II, 13)
The Eastern Orthodox churches accept the Nicene Creed as accepted by the ecumenical council; the Roman communion does not
Wrong. Rome fully accepts all the creeds pronounced by Ecumenical Councils of the Church, including those of Nicea and Constantinople. On the other hand, if you're referring to the doctrine of the filioque, it was held by the West even before the ecumenical acceptance of the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed.
The Spirit is also the Paraclete, who is by himself neither the Father, nor the Son, but proceeding from the Father and the Son. Therefore the Father is unbegotten, the Son is begotten, the Paraclete is not begotten, but proceeding from the Father and the Son. (Creed of the Council of Toledo, DZ 19) [447 AD]
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.