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Top bishop's vision - a world without gays
New Zealand Herald ^ | 6 June 2004 | Catherine Masters

Posted on 06/07/2004 9:18:49 PM PDT by ahadams2

Top bishop's vision - a world without gays

05.06.2004

By CATHERINE MASTERS

The new head of the Anglican Church has a vision of a world without homosexuality.

Bishop Whakahuihui Vercoe, 75, is a controversial replacement for Archbishop John Paterson, who has headed New Zealand's largest church for seven years.

Bishop Vercoe is a staunch supporter of the Treaty of Waitangi and has been outspoken over the years on homosexuality, immigration and the place of women in the church.

In his first big interview since his appointment, he told the Weekend Herald he believed that homosexuality was unnatural and not morally right.

"And that's not quoting scripture either ... I'm just basing it on my human - I'spose I should be basing it on scripture also, but I'm basing it on human accepted norms."

His words come as the country prepares to debate the Civil Union Bill, which would give gay couples the same legal rights as married couples.

The Anglican Church welcomes homosexuals in its congregation but is divided worldwide over same-sex marriage and ordaining gays.

In New Zealand there are a number of gay priests, but it is up to individual bishops whom they ordain.

Bishop Vercoe says he does not condemn homosexuals as individuals, rather he loves them as people, but he says ordination is like saying it is all right to have same-sex marriages and same-sex parents.

One day society would find homosexuality unacceptable, he said.

"It may not come in our time but it will come. There will be a strong reaction, well, for later generations, we [will] suddenly discover a morality, a new morality."

Bishop Vercoe's appointment is particularly significant as the country debates race relations.

He has supported separate structures for Maori and said recently that Maori were here before Pakeha and had nowhere else to go.

The Rev. Dr Janet Crawford, from the Auckland School of Theology, credits him with shaking up the church after a speech at Waitangi in 1990 before the Queen where he said Maori had been marginalised and the treaty had not been honoured.

"He is a remarkable man really. I think when he spoke at Waitangi that was a courageous thing to do and it certainly had a huge impact on the church over time. I think it was a real wake-up call and people took what he said seriously. In combination with other things, that has influenced the direction of the church."

In 1992 the church rewrote its constitution and split into three tikanga (cultural) sections - Pakeha, Maori and Polynesian. Each is run according to its own traditions and cultures.

Bishop Vercoe headed the Maori church and is the first Maori to be made archbishop since the change.

Richard Randerson, Dean of the Holy Trinity Cathedral in Parnell, said the Pakeha synod had felt it was time the leadership passed to tikanga Maori.

Bishop Vercoe's views on homosexuality and women in the church arose out of a cultural context, he said.

"There are areas within Maoridom today where leadership by women is not accepted as well as it is in other parts of Maoridom.

"Likewise with issues of homosexuality, I think probably most Maori would find that culturally very difficult."

A leadership with a more Maori dimension would be good for the church - and good for the nation.

"From what I've heard, there's a lot of people within Maoridom generally, outside the church, who have seen this as a very far-sighted appointment.

"They're saying that this is a real signal to the nation that we are not just one culture."

Glynn Cardy, vicar-elect of the liberal St Matthew-in-the-city in Auckland, said he hoped that in time the Anglican Church in New Zealand would unequivocally welcome gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender people and would not withhold any sacrament from them because of their sexuality.

But he also said that the appointment of Bishop Vercoe did notsend a negative signal.

"He is a man of many gifts and much mana. I have especially valued in the past his alignment internationally with minority indigenous groups seeking justice."

Oliver Hall, editor of the gay newspaper Express, said the views on homosexuality came as no surprise.

"It's weird, though, that it's the Anglican Church who elsewhere have been making leaps and bounds towards trying to include homosexuals recently, so it's kind of sad, but it's not really unexpected."


TOPICS: Activism; Apologetics; Current Events; Mainline Protestant; Ministry/Outreach; Moral Issues; Religion & Culture; Theology
KEYWORDS: anglican; apostasy; communion; conservative; heresy; homosexual; nzealand; response

1 posted on 06/07/2004 9:18:49 PM PDT by ahadams2
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To: ahadams2; sionnsar; Grampa Dave; AnAmericanMother; N. Theknow; Ray'sBeth; hellinahandcart; ...

New Zealand's New Anglican Archbishop is a conservative Christian Maori - white heretics horrified ping.


2 posted on 06/07/2004 9:20:24 PM PDT by ahadams2 (http://trad-anglican.faithweb.com - new url for Anglican Freeper Resource Page)
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To: ahadams2

BTTT


3 posted on 06/07/2004 9:24:12 PM PDT by TruthNtegrity (We must all work hard to insure Pres. Bush's re-election by a landslide!)
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To: ahadams2
Bishop Whakahuihui Vercoe

I wonder how you pronounce that?

4 posted on 06/08/2004 4:21:02 AM PDT by Tax-chick (The old woman who lives in the 15-passenger van.)
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To: Tax-chick; ahadams2; shaggy eel

As a member of a Chinese-language Anglican church in Auckland, I wouldn't hold my breath thinking that the new bishop is thoroughly conservative. He will probably get every political point wrong apart from moral issues perhaps (i.e. socially and morally conservative, Bilically orthodox on faith, but politically liberal). The Pakeha liberal "Christians" won't dare to push him off for his moral stance because he is Maori and by definition is a sacred people due to the Treaty of Waitangi.

And about his name, his last name is probably pronounced in the usual way in English (like "VER-coe" I think) but his first name will be pronounced as Wha-ka-hu-i-hu-i. Like most non-English languages written in Roman scripts, the vowels sounds are distinct from the English pronunication. It is similar to the sound of vowels in German ("a" as in "aa", "i" as in "ee", "u" as in "oo").

Shaggy, a ping to you for commentary on Bishop Vercoe's political views and also about his faith.


5 posted on 06/08/2004 6:00:43 AM PDT by NZerFromHK
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To: ahadams2

I can envision a world without gays, adulterers, thieves, murderers, drunkards, etc., etc., but it's not gonna happen before Christ returns! When God fashions a new heaven and new earth, all that stuff will be gone, finally, but never before.


6 posted on 06/08/2004 10:43:40 AM PDT by gal522
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To: NZerFromHK; 2sheep
,,, thanx for this mate! It's difficult for me to understand how any Christian denomination could have an empathy for homosexuality, given what's said in the Bible, so he's on safe ground here.

As for the Treaty of Waitangi, I've noticed on the Maori news each morning [National Radio] that there's an attempt to place the weight of Church leaders, the endorsement of academics and others at the forefront of the community into the Maori cause. This is a strategy that will bring division, without doubt.

7 posted on 06/08/2004 2:11:13 PM PDT by shaggy eel
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To: shaggy eel

I agree. If "Christian" leaders can't accept the Bible authority as God's Word and sins are sins, why should they be in Christian denominations in the first place?

Yes, I'm starting to feel that the Treaty of Waitangi is being interpreted as something beyond recognition by its original drafters and signatories. The fault of what Americans call activist judges. and our own leftists have opened a can of worms that extreme ethnic minority (Maori) activists believe a lot of things that look disgusting to their socially leftist beliefs. One day, they will have to decide whether to stand for one set of beliefs or another. But oh well, it is a matter to be discussed on the "news" part of the forum. ;-)


8 posted on 06/08/2004 3:06:10 PM PDT by NZerFromHK
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To: shaggy eel; NZerFromHK

Hmm, as is probably obvious to the two of you, most of us up here in the states are clueless concerning your politics, and up until now the only thing we've heard from the NZ Anglicans has been stuff from your former wacko archbishop who sounds just like one of our wackos. Indeed most of us have only ever seen your country via watching The Lord of the Rings movies (though most folks also understand that there are really far fewer orcs, trolls, wizards, hobbits, and so forth, than the movies would lead one to expect).

In any case, do you have some web pointers for places to learn about conservative folks from your country? I think we'd all appreciate the education...or at least most of us would.


9 posted on 06/08/2004 7:47:27 PM PDT by ahadams2 (http://trad-anglican.faithweb.com - new url for Anglican Freeper Resource Page)
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To: ahadams2
,,, thanx for your interest. For starters, scroll down the list of links on this and select a few. If any clarification is needed, don't hesitate to get back to me.
10 posted on 06/08/2004 7:53:19 PM PDT by shaggy eel (http://www.act.org.nz)
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To: ahadams2

To add to shaggy's points, I recommend going over threads about NZ on the "news" section of this board. a lot of resident Kiwi freepers do comment on these threads. Another good place to explore politically conservative NZ opinions is to visit this weblog site:

http://www.npundit.com

(Unfortunately this blog has three authors. One is an atheist, another is a gay Catholic, and third one is not sure so if you want to look at Christian issues i don't think they will have that many)

New Zealand is perhaps one of the most thoroughly secular liberal countries in the Western world (I would say even Oregon looks like the Bible Belt by comparison). We have around 26% of people who have officially no religion, and another 10% who are Buddhists, Muslisms, etc and even many of those who are officially "Christian" are those who will go to church for three things: baptism, wedding, and funeral. From my personal experience most of the Europeans/Pakeha (whites in American usage) of my age (around 20s) right up to 30s aren't Christians. Their knowledge of Jesus and faith is so scacre to the point that Dr Charles Stanley noted "They don't even know who Jesus is" on a trip two years ago. They could be politically leftist or rightist - not all (or even a majority of them) are Labour/Green supporters. And most European NZers from 40s to 65 are like the CINOs (Christian in Name Only) you see in the States. For example, Dr Don Brash, the currently very popular conservative NZ National Party leader in parliament (and could be our next Prime Minister), is an agnostic - he admires John Spong and he says he is still a "Christian" because it is institutionally a traditional NZ moral fabric but he does not believe in the gospel or Jesus as his Saviour. Pacific Island migrants are heavily conservative Christians, but politically they vote the centre-left Labour (just like many Hispanic or Asian Christians in the US vote Democrat). About the original Maori people (not that indigenous - they arrived at NZ around AD 1000 but before that the country was uninhabited), the rural are conservative Christians (Anglicans) or Catholics, but for urban Maoris, anything goes. I believe 1/2 of them are conservative Christians and the rest New Age spiritualists.

In general, just like America, the Left among European NZers in NZ is almostly universally anti-Christian, but unlike the US, the Right in NZ have many who aren't Christians but their attitudes towards us is more like "live and let live, as you Christians won't pose dangers to NZ as radical Islam does".


11 posted on 06/08/2004 10:07:23 PM PDT by NZerFromHK
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To: ahadams2

Sorry, I meant the site http://www.nzpundit.com

And speaking of John Paterson, I saw him in person around a few years back. To me he appeared quite insincere and be honest, his attitudes and manners are far more like of an administration bureaucrat than a Christian.


12 posted on 06/09/2004 1:56:39 AM PDT by NZerFromHK
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