Priest leads other Episcopalians to join Orthodox Church

Wichita Eagle ^ | 3 January 2004 | SUZANNE PEREZ TOBIAS

[ahadams2]

Priest leads other Episcopalians to join Orthodox Church

BY SUZANNE PEREZ TOBIAS, The Wichita Eagle

About 40 members of an Episcopal church in east Wichita have established a new congregation within the Orthodox Church, citing their disapproval of the "decidedly liberal drift" of the Episcopal Church in recent years.

The Rev. John Flora, 57, retired rector of St. Stephen's Episcopal Church, will lead the new congregation, which will begin worshipping at St. George's Orthodox Christian Cathedral in Wichita at 10 a.m. on Sunday.

Flora said he and the group of former St. Stephen's parishioners have grown frustrated with the Episcopal Church, including its approval of its first openly gay bishop in August.

"When I found the Episcopal Church in college, I really believed I had found something that was connected to the ancient church and was going to remain steadfast," Flora said.

"But my experience in the past 31 years as a priest is, there's been a slippery slide into theological relativism, and that's not where I'm at."

Officials with the Episcopal Diocese of Kansas, including Bishop Dean Wolfe, were out of town for the holidays and could not be reached for comment.

Melodie Woerman, spokeswoman for the diocese, said that news of Flora's new church mission was "a surprise," and that church officials would be unlikely to make a comment until they learned more about the situation.

The new church, St. Michael the Archangel Antiochian Orthodox Christian Church, will be the first Western Rite Orthodox parish in Kansas. It will join a growing number of Orthodox congregations that use a Western form for their liturgy, rather than the more characteristic Byzantine Rite.

The liturgy of the new church will be similar to that of the traditional Anglican Book of Common Prayer, Flora said, with some additions to make it conform to Orthodox theology.

Becoming an Orthodox priest, which he plans to do on Easter, will complete a personal and theological evolution for Flora.

During seminary, he participated in a dialogue group between Anglican and Orthodox churches, and he has been interested in Palestinian issues and Orthodoxy ever since.

For now, the new St. Michael parish will hold worship services in the chapel at St. George's Cathedral, 7515 E. 13th St. But Flora hopes the congregation will grow and eventually have its own facility.

Leaving the 2.4 million-member Episcopal Church was "a real hard decision," Flora said, "but one I felt I had to make."

Other parishioners planning to join Flora agreed.

"This has nothing to do with St. Stephen's itself. It has everything to do with the Episcopal Church USA," said Bill Anderson, head of the St. Michael parish council.

"My belief is that we have not left the Episcopal Church; it has left us," he said. "This is not a decision we took lightly, nor is it something that just happened."

[ahadams2]

Ping.

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[FormerLib]

An Orthodox ping.

[CARepubGal]

Palestinian issues?

[lambo]

Palestinian issues?

Yup. Grrrrr.

[CARepubGal]

Precisely. :sigh:

[ahadams2]

That one wasn't further defined...my guess is it's the result of something the good father said which went right over the reporter's head.

[peter the great]

Actually I can tell you all you need to know about this. The Antiochian Orthodox Church has its origins in Antioch, Syria and to this day has Parishes all through out the Middle East. The Antiochian Orthodox Church membership is made up primarily to a large extent of Middle Eastern Christians who immigrated to this country. This Church is open to all people not just Arab as is any other Orthodox Church the only thing separating this Church from a Russian,Greek. Romanian or Serbian Church is sometimes the language that is spoken, and jurisdiction although amongst the younger Orthodox Christians it does not matter. One thing that the article failed to mentioned the Archdiocese for the Southwestern Region is located in Wichita and this was probably the decisive factor in choosing this particular jurisdiction.

[ahadams2]

If you have some links to related sites, why not post them on this thread?

[CARepubGal]

I wonder if the reporter sort of edited a comment or two. The wording was a bit odd. And the bias of the writer tends to sort of seep through articles......

[msdrby]

ping

[MarMema]

Welcome ping to new brethren in Wichita. Many Years!

[MarMema]

Thank you for this post.

[CARepubGal]

Antiochian Western Rite? I am guessing.

[MarMema]

Definitely Antiochian which I am not all that familiar with....it sounds like western rite, which I have not even heard before, I confess. But good news for them, imho. :-)
I like being Orthodox very very much.

[CARepubGal]

LOL! Nice to see these folks on a MUCH better path! I need to get to a Russian Orthodox service one of these days. The Antiochian Priest had cool robes but no beard. That seemed sort of unnatural for some reason.... ;-) Happy Orthodox Christmas! (You guys celebrate Tuesday, right?)

[torqemada]

A cause for celebration! It is not easy to be "the called out ones," and I can tell them (from experience) that there will be times to come when they will have doubts that they did the right thing. I don't know anything about the Orthodox Church they are affiliating with, but I hope and pray that they are not simply exchanging one oppressive yoke for another. These "new" missions and parishes must maintain control of their temporal affairs in future affiliations. Money is power. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. If Episcopalians had not been so incredibly STUPID as to give everything right down to the pew pencils to their Bishops, none of us would be where we are right now. That's why our new church, Trinity, affiliated with the Anglican Province of America. If APA Bishops decide to follow a "new gospel" in the future, they can be the ones to go...taking nothing with them...and may the door hit them in the ass!

[TheCookMan]

Nope. Christmas is the same.

Easter is different, but every few years it is the same. The last time was 2001, and it will be in 2004 as well.

[Destro]

Sense of timelessness

Greek Orthodox faith's traditions date to first century

By Jenny Atchley, For the Camera

January 3, 2004

Father Nicholas Dotson speaks to his church congregation last month about the importance of giving at Sts. Peter & Paul Greek Orthodox Church in Gunbarrel.

Twenty-five years ago, Rev. Nicholas Dotson was a Las Vegas businessman and a practicing Episcopalian until he made a life-changing decision to leave the church in which he had been raised.

"Things had changed in the Episcopal church to the point that it was time for me to look somewhere else," Dotson, 51, says. "Myself and my wife went on a spiritual journey searching."

Their search led them toward Roman Catholicism because it was a "liturgical church that was familiar" to Dotson and his wife. After meeting a young seminarian from the Greek Orthodox Church, however, the Dotsons knew they had found their destination.

"I knew this is what would sustain me," Dotson says. "It's sort of as if I didn't find the church, but more like the church came and found me and pulled me into it."

The faith pulled him in so much that in 1989 Dotson entered the St. Tikhon's Orthodox Theological Seminary in South Canaan, Pa. Two months ago, he came to Boulder's Sts. Peter and Paul Greek Orthodox Church from Calhan, Colo., where he'd presided at St. Mary's Holy Dormition Orthodox Church since 1993.

"I know for Father Nicholas this isn't just his job," says Nick Kallan, a parishioner of Sts. Peter and Paul for seven years. "He's very giving of his time and love, and he really espouses what it means to be an Orthodox priest. He's not just a 9 to 5 priest, as it were."

The Orthodox Church, made up of self-governing churches, is the second largest group of Christians in the world, with about 250 million followers, according to the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America. About 5 million people in the United States are Orthodox. Of those, about 1.5 million are members of the Greek Orthodox Church.

The Greek Orthodox Church's "changelessness in the face of change" is one of the faith's main attractions, Dotson says. Church tradition and theology is believed not to have changed since Pentecost in 33 A.D., the year of Christ's death, he adds.

But that's not to say modernity doesn't have its place. In his office, Dotson motions toward his new desktop computer.

"We have brand new computers, but it still doesn't mean I'm not going to go in there (the sanctuary) and use third-century Byzantine chant," he says. "There's a timelessness. There's no need (for the church) to reinvent itself."

1054 is often cited as the year the Roman and Orthodox churches separated. The Greek Orthodox Church's theology is neither Roman Catholic nor Protestant, Dotson says, although it is still a Christian faith.

Most Orthodox churches in America follow the revised Julian calendar, which is 13 days behind the Gregorian calendar followed by non-Orthodox Christians, Dotson says. The Greek Orthodox Church celebrates Christ's birth on Dec. 25, but its Easter celebration—the Feast of Pascha — usually does not occur on the same day as that of other Christian faiths.

Greek Orthodoxy's Eucharist service, called the Divine Liturgy, celebrates the "coming together of two realities," Dotson says. Unlike Catholicism, which celebrates transubstantiation, the Greek Orthodox Church believes that bread and wine retain their worldly elements while the holy spirit transforms them into Christ's body and blood.

The Divine Liturgy, which lasts about 90 minutes and occurs on weekends and sometimes during the week, is a experience of the senses as well as the spririt, combining prayer, incense, Scripture readings and Byzantine hymns sung a capella. At Sts. Peter and Paul, a congregation of about 200, prayers and hymns are recited in both English and Greek, and the Lord's Prayer is also said in Arabic, Romanian and Slavic.

A visual part of Greek Orthodoxy is its colorful iconography, which serves as an interface between saints and people by providing "windows to heaven," Dotson says.

"An icon is a realistic depiction of a reality that's directly in front of us at that moment," he explains. "Icons for us are constant reminders of what we can be, and what we strive to be."

Fasting on Wednesdays and Fridays, as well as during holy seasons throughout the year, is an important practice in the Greek Orthodox faith.

"It's not just a diet — it's connected with praying and charity," says Dana Gall, a Sts. Peter and Paul parishioner who moved to Boulder from Romania in 1989. "You're cleansing your body so you are ready to get closer to God."

Getting closer to God is a daily activity for those who follow the faith, says Olympia Bakalis, a Greek who has been a parishioner at Sts. Peter and Paul for three years.

"It's really a way of life," Bakalis says. "It's reassuring to have a safe place and to know that here, things don't change."

[sfRummygirl]

You may have already answered most of my question, but what makes a church 'orthodox'? Not raised in this tradition, and not catholic either, I never fully understood.

[MegaSilver]

what makes a church 'orthodox'?

It depends; if you mean "orthodox" with a lowercase "o," then you mean something which is conventional or true to tradition and original intent. If, however, you mean "Orthodox" with a capital "O," you are refering to the Christian Churches in Romania, Russia, the Slavic lands, and what was once the Byzantine Empire. Officially, these churches refer to themselves collectively as the "Orthodox Catholic Church." Orthodox follow the Byzantine Rite, adhere to the sacraments and docrtines as laid out by the first seven ecumenical councils of the Christian Church, and except for the Oriental Orthodox Churches (such as the ones in Iraq and Syria), all of the Orthodox churches are in full communion with the Patriarch of Constantinople, though there is hope of reunion. The Patriarch is not like the pope; rather, he is first among equals. (His role could be said to parallel that of the Archbishop of Canterbury in the Anglican Church.)

[sfRummygirl]

Oh, thank you! This helps me very much.

[getgoing]

Happy New Year wishes sent to you and all Orthodox friends. I'll try to vist the church in Wichita next time we visit family in Kansas.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

Palestinian issues? 5 posted on 01/04/2004 2:37:38 PM PST by CARepubGal

I would suspect that "peter the great" probably has the right angle on the subject. The Antiochian Orthodox Church is descended from a lot of Syriac and Arab Christians and they do have a record of expressing disapproval towards policies (in Israel... and Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, etc., for that matter) which might tend to disparage Syriac and Arab Christians as "second-class citizens".

But this is an understandable concern and should not be presumed to translate into sniper attacks and suicide bombings -- which actions are, shall we say, not exactly as typical of Antiochian Orthodox so much as perhaps another-Middle-Eastern-"Religion-of-Peace"-which-shall-remain-nameless.

JMHO. best, op

[FormerLib]

More likely than not, the "Palestinian issues" refers to some of the concerns that Arab Christians are currently encountering in Israel.

I wish they had mentioned them in a little more detail here so that we could have been certain.

[FormerLib]

Happy Orthodox Christmas! (You guys celebrate Tuesday, right?)

For those of us Orthodox who are on the "Old" or Julian Calendar, we celebrate Christmas on January 7th. Many folks assume that we celebrate Epiphany or "Little Christmas" but that just isn't so.

My mother-in-law has given me many lectures about our celebrating the Nativity of Our Lord on the "wrong day!" LOL

[FormerLib]

Here's more information on the Western Rite Orthodox Church.

[MarMema]

Greek Orthodoxy's Eucharist service, called the Divine Liturgy, celebrates the "coming together of two realities," Dotson says. Unlike Catholicism, which celebrates transubstantiation, the Greek Orthodox Church believes that bread and wine retain their worldly elements while the holy spirit transforms them into Christ's body and blood.

LOL, from the post above....

[MarMema]

More info for browsing is here.

[msdrby]

Thanks for the post. My husband is Episcopal, and I am Lutheran. We are attentively watching politics unravel both churches. I find it vey interesting that some of the Episcopal parishes have decided to join the Orthodox church.

[sfRummygirl]

Bookmarked! Thank you.

[Destro]

Maybe it is a shared history? Before William the Bastard aka the Conqueror England was part of the Orthodox world:

Read: THE FALL OF ORTHODOX ENGLAND

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

That sounds remarkably similar to some of your own posts....

[rwfromkansas]

Hey, that's a lot better than the Catholic doctrine.

I might have to visit an Orthodox church someday to see what it is like. But, I will not step foot inside a Catholic church unless I have to do so.

[ArrogantBustard]

Wow ... that reads like a definition of 'transubstantiation' ...

The Catholics believe that 3*2=6, whilst the Orthodox believe that when three (symbolizing the three Persons in One God) is multiplied by two (symbolizing the two Natures in Christ) the product is equal to half the square root of one gross.

;'}

[CARepubGal]

Dumb question: Which Patriarchate is this under? I am guessing Antiochian due to the plethora of beard impaired priests (the beards and tall hats are cool!). Thanks for the link. :-) And Happy Epiphany Day.

[CARepubGal]

LOL! The folks I know are more "old rite" so that is probably where the idea came from. :-) Thanks for the info.

[Truth'sBabyGirl]

As it has been explained to me, Catholics believe that the substance ceases being bread and wine and becomes the body and blood. Orthodox believe that what is in the chalice is at once bread and wine AND the body and blood. The Orthodox church is a mystical church, and many of our beliefs defy earthly physics. Take, for example, the belief in the dual nature of Jesus Christ. Orthodox Christians believe he was at once fully divine and fully human.

(if any other Orthodox know differently, please correct me!)

[FormerLib]

Which Patriarchate is this under? I am guessing Antiochian...

And you would be correct.

You may also find that many OCA churches do not have a discernably ethnic nature, particularly those that have been established within the past few decades.

[FormerLib]

The only modification I'd make to your definition would be to always mention that the Orthodox hold that the change is a mystical one and that it is beyond our comprehension.

This is important because some Protestants will fix on the idea that a physical change is expected and may suggest a chemical test as a means to prove or disprove the real presence of Christ. I know that sounds ridiculous but I've seen some folks on FR actually suggest that as a method of determining the truth. A little sad, really.

[ArrogantBustard]

Catholics make a distinction between the "substance" of a thing (what it really is) and the "accidents" of a thing (what it looks like). Using this distinction, Catholics hold that after the consecration, the "substance" of the Eucharist is "the Body and Blood, Sould and Divinity of Our Lord", while the "accidents" of the Eucharist remain "bread and wine". I'm given to understand that most Orthodox don't much care for applying Aristotelian philosophy to the Sacraments/Mysteries. I'm also given to understand that most Orthodox don't much care for the Catholic use of a single word for "that which happens to the bread and wine in the Liturgy", they (you?) think that we think we actually understand what happens. Fact is, we don't, we know we don't, and we don't pretend otherwise. The Eucharist is a miracle, in which God does something totally beyond our understanding. And I've never seen an Eastern Orthodox description (definition, whatever) of the Eucharist that I didn't think was orthodox, hence my little arithmetic joke. The belief in two natures, one person in Jesus Christ is a similar case. Good golly, after all the time and trouble we've spent combatting Arians, Nestorians etc. ad nauseaum, it's sort of distressing that you aren't sure what we believe on that topic.

[FormerLib]

I'm also given to understand that most Orthodox don't much care for the Catholic use of a single word for "that which happens to the bread and wine in the Liturgy"...

Yes, and that would be because of the fact that we've heard from some who claim to have a full understanding of precisely what does happen and that they've used additional terms to describe what occurs that puts it outside of our understanding. One such example would be applying the terms "physical substance" to include what you have termed "accidents." Of course, we've also heard from some Roman Catholic posters who have said exactly the same as you. Quite frankly, the fact that the term "transubstantiation" has had differing definitions applied to it, I would think you'd understand why we are uncomfortable with its use (by us, anyway).

[ArrogantBustard]

we've heard from some who claim to have a full understanding of precisely what does happen
Really???? I've never heard such ... any who do so claim are not teaching what the Catholic Church teaches.

"Substance" and "accidents" isn't my terminology. It's St. Thomas Aquinas', and Aristotles.

Quite frankly, the fact that the term "transubstantiation" has had differing definitions applied to it,
It's the difference between those who know what they're talking about, and those who don't...

Article 3: The Sacrament of the Eucharist

[FormerLib]

It's the difference between those who know what they're talking about, and those who don't...

Oh, I understand completely. But that's another part of the problem with the term as we never know which group someone belongs to when we're talking to them.

[FormerLib]

By the way, I didn't mean to hijack the thread for a discussion on transubstantiation so I'm going to be quiet now.

[peter the great]

You have to excuse me and I am very sorry about taking so long to get back to you with this. I am also having problems with my computer but there are many web sites that contain information about Orthodoxy. First, there is www.antiochian.org, this is the official web site of the Church in question. Then there is www.oca.org which is the Orthodox Church in America any question or anything that you want to know about the faith you will find on this web site and last there is www.orthodoxnews.com. I hope this helps you out.

[peter the great]

Anyway the two Freepers who responded to your post definitely answered your question, as well or better, than I ever could have. . Should there be any other question do not hesitate to ask.

[Truth'sBabyGirl]

"Then there is www.oca.org which is the Orthodox Church in America any question or anything that you want to know about the faith you will find on this web site"

I grew up in the Antiochian church, but also attended various OCA churches (during college, for example). Despite my love for the Antiochians and the OCA, I have to say that the Greek Archdiocese website is really the best. Check it out at www.goarch.org . You'll understand why I favor it when you visit it. The theology is, of course, the same. But the Greek website includes a fantastic calendar, daily readings, and is just prettier. Plus, I know the guys who run it (Incidentally, they are Antiochian ... )
God Bless!
TBG