Fully armed Nazi bomber planes 'buried below East Berlin airport'

The Scotsman ^ | July 22, 2003 | Allan Hall

[Recourse]

Tue 22 Jul 2003

Fully armed Nazi bomber planes 'buried below East Berlin airport'

ALLAN HALL IN BERLIN

AN AIRPORT used by hundreds of thousands of tourists and business travellers each year could be sitting on top of thousands of live bombs.

Papers among thousands of files captured from the Stasi, the secret police of East Germany, claim tons of live Second World War munitions were buried in concrete bunkers beneath the runways of Schoenefeld airport in East Berlin. It is now the main destination for discount airlines, such as Ryanair, and numerous charter companies.

Not only did the commissars intern munitions beneath the runways, but also entire Nazi fighter planes, all fuelled and fully bombed-up, according to the Stasi.

The captured files of Interflug, the former East German government airline and the airport authority of the DDR, are now being examined to see if the Stasi claim is true.

Experts believe it entirely feasible that, in the aftermath of the Second World War, with Berlin littered with millions of tons of unexploded ordnance, the Soviets could well have pressured local officials to move to clear the airfield as swiftly as possible.

"They would have stuffed them anywhere they could - there was simply too much stuff to blow up all at once," said Karl-Heinz Eckhardt, a Berlin historian. "There was a warren of massive Nazi bunkers beneath the site of the present airport that would have suited their purposes."

City authorities claim the airport is perfectly safe, but a thorough check on the claims in the Stasi files - 140 km of them that will still take a number of years to decipher - is being undertaken.

Nearly two million passengers a year pass through Schoenefeld. According to the Stasi files, the ammunition was buried in bunkers between eight and nine metres deep.

A spokesman for the airport said: "We became aware of the bunkers in 1993, four years after the fall of the [Berlin] Wall. A check was undertaken then and everything was determined to be safe."

But he conceded that he was astounded at the claims that fully-fuelled and bombed-up aircraft lie beneath the runways and said new tests about the safety of the structures will be carried out.

He added: "We had no idea that so much ordnance is supposedly under there."

Frank Henkel, the Conservative interior ministry spokesman, said: "This must be investigated thoroughly and immediately and the runways strengthened if necessary."

Berlin, with its sandy, dry soil, was perfect for the bunker-building of the Third Reich. Hundreds of thousands of them were constructed during the 12-year lifespan of the Nazi government: for every one metre of building above ground in modern-day Berlin, there are three metres below ground.

Bunkers are being discovered every day and a group called Underground Berlin has turned several of them into tourist attractions.

This article:

  http://news.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=792292003

Secret War:

  http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=222

[DCBryan1]

Let me know if a Me262 or Focke wolfe is there, I'll buy it and restore it :)

[So Cal Rocket]

It took almost 60 years to find these... how long will it take to find Iraq's WMD

[Ford Fairlane]

I'm holding out for a Me1000 (i think thats the number - the one we & the russians copied to make the F86 & the Mig 15)

[RoughDobermann]

You don't happen to read Clive Cussler novels, do you?

[Ford Fairlane]

If it's that bunker, make sure you wear a gas mask when you go in ;-)

[Paul Atreides]

According to some on the left, Iraq's WMDs should have been found two hours after the troops set foot in Iraq.

[RoughDobermann]

I'm holding out for a Me1000 (i think thats the number - the one we & the russians copied to make the F86 & the Mig 15)

Nope ME-262 'Swallow'

Not really copied, but the inherent design elements were borrowed for both the MiG and the Sabre.

[RoughDobermann]

If it's that bunker, make sure you wear a gas mask when you go in ;-)

Ah, yes! Which book was it? I haven't read any Cussler in a LONG time!

[BradyLS]

Geraldo will get to the bottom of this. Or he'll eat... something.

[Plutarch]

Hmmm, where is that dang shovel....?

[RoughDobermann]

how long will it take to find Iraq's WMD

Iraq didn't have a WMD program... Jeez, where you been?! It's all lies from W so that he could have vengeance on Saddam!

[bicycle thug]

This dig could make for an epic "Antique Roadshow, Germany." Man, I want an ME 109, and want one bad. (But they could keep the bombs.)

[RoughDobermann]

Is that the stretched 190?

[lafroste]

It is now the main destination for discount airlines

Well, It IS a discount airline. Waddya expect? Caviar?

[Burkeman1]

It would be great if a few Stuka fighter planes could be found intact as none exist. But if there is massive ordinance under the airport I would wager it is excess Soviet ordinance as the Germans in the final assualt on Berlin were running low on all ammunition save panserfausts and had to "ration" artillery shells and tank shells to their units even though they had few tanks or artillery pieces at that point.

[Paul Atreides]

Geraldo will get to the bottom of this.

The only thing Geraldo ever got to the bottom to was a twentysomething girl.

[Husker24]

This would be awsome, but unfortunately the German government would probably chop them up and sell them as scrap metal. It would be something if there was some of those jet fighters down there.

[Husker24]

That is a neat looking aircraft, youve got to hand it to the Nazis, as evil as they were, they did have style.

[wolficatZ]

Only one prototype and we snagged it. 

 

The Me P.1101 V1 was about 80% complete when the Oberammergau complex was discovered

by American troops on April 29, 1945, a few days before the war's end.  ,

[Ford Fairlane]

Actually, this is what I was thinking of - the Messerschmitt P1101 (I think we got one & the Russians got one & thats all they found)

Sorry I couldnt find a better pic, I have some at home in my paper files but I'm not there now

[Ford Fairlane]

I cant remember - I think that brain cell is long gone

Came out in paperback around 97?? (before Treasure)

[jimtorr]

Nothing new here. There are bunkers virtually everywhere under berlin. A number of them have not been entered since 1945, when the Nazi's booby-trapped them with very large amounts of explosives during the Russian invasion of the city.

This, according to a friend who was in the army unit responsible for border and bunker security in the early '70's. He talked a lot, without ever getting too specific.

He also mentioned underground hangers under a number of airports in and around Berlin.

[Ford Fairlane]

Yea, thats it - I have a detailed engineering review of it somewhere, the way my files are it could be anywhere

[Consort]

Hoheitszeichen am Kraftwagen für Generale der Luftwaffe

[Live free or die]

I don't think some people understand just how far ahead they were. This is the Ho IX. A jet-propelled flying wing, stealthy to radar and could fly up to 500 mph. This machine actually flew during the war and the original is in the Smithsonian.

I'd love to see one of these.

[Burkeman1]

Germany was the most scientifically advanced country in the world by WWI. It just goes to show that even "advanced" countries can descend into barbarism.

[Live free or die]

Here's one of their Berlin to New York and back bombers that never made it off the drawing board, but still...it'd be cool to see it.

[Pan_Yans Wife]

Ping

[Southack]

"Germany was the most scientifically advanced country in the world by WWI. It just goes to show that even "advanced" countries can descend into barbarism."

Nonsense. They didn't invent the airplane, the telephone, the radio, radar, or even the machine gun.

They were certainly behind in mass production, computers, cryptography, and atomic weapons, too.

Even German rocketry was stolen from the American scientist Dr. Robert Goddard, including his liquid-fueled propulsion and gyroscopic stabilization.

[Consort]

               German Fighter Aces

Name	Kills
Erich Hartmann	352
Gerhard Barkhorn	301
Günther Rall	275
Otto Kittel	267
Walter Nowotny	258
Wilhlem Batz	237
Erich Rudorffer	224
Heinz Bär	221
Hermann Graf	212
Heinrich Ehrler	208
Theodor Weissenberger	208
Hans Philipp	206
Walter Schuck	206
Anton Hafner	204
Helmut Lipfert	203
Walter Krupinski	197
Anton Hackl	192
Joachim Brendel	189
Max Stotz	189
Joachim Kirschner	188
Kurt Brändle	180
Günther Josten	178
Johannes Steinhoff	178
Ernst-Wilhelm Reinert	174
Günther Schack	174
Emil Lang	173
Heinz Schmidt	173
Horst Ademeit	166
Wolf-Dietrich Wilcke	162
Hans-Joachim Marseille	158
Heinrich Sturm	158
Gerhard Thyben	157
Hans Beisswenger	152
Peter Düttmann	152
Gordon Gollob	150
Fritz Tegtmeier	146
Albin Wolf	144
Kurt Tanzer	143
Friedrich-Karl Müller	140
Karl Gratz	138
Heinrich Setz	138
Rudolf Trenkel	138
Walter Wolfrum	137
Horst-Günther von Fassong	136
Otto Fönnekold	136
Karl-Heinz Weber	136
Joachim Muencheberg	135
Hans Waldmann	134
Alfred Grislawski	133
Franz Schall	133
Johannes Wiese	133
Adolf Borchers	132
Adolf Dickfeld	132
Erwin Clausen	132
Wilhelm Lemke	131
Gerhard Hoffmann	130
Franz Eisenach	129
Walther Dahl	129
Heinrich Sterr	129
Franz Dörr	128
Rudolf Rademacher	126
Josef Zwernemann	126
Dietrich Hrabak	125
Wolf Ettel	124
Herbert Ihlefeld	123
Wolfgang Tonne	122
Heinz Marquardt	121
Heinz-Wolfgang Schnaufer	121
Robert Weiss	121
Erich Leie	121
Friedrich Obleser	120
Franz-Josef Beerenbrock	117
Hans-Joachim Birkner	117
Jakob Norz	117
Walter Oesau	117
Heinz Wernicke	117
August Lambert	116
Wilhelm Crinius	114
Werner Schroer	114
Hans Dammers	113
Berthold Korts	113
Helmut Lent	113
Kurt Bühligen	112
Kurt Ubben	110
Franz Woidich	110
Reinhard Seiler	109
Emil Bitsch	108
Hans Hahn	108
Bernhard Vechtel	108
Viktor Bauer	106
Werner Lucas	106
Günther Lützow	105
Eberhard von Boremski	104
Heinz Sachsenberg	104
Adolf Galland	103
Hartmann Grasser	103
Siegfried Freytag	102
Friedrich Geisshardt	102
Egon Mayer	102
Max-Hellmuth Ostermann	102
Josef Wurmheller	102
Rudolf Miethig	101
Werner Mölders	101
Josef Priller	101
Ulrich Wernitz	101

[Burkeman1]

We disagree on that. But even Woodrow Wilson said as much at the time.

[BradyLS]

ANTIQUES ROADSHOW: WRIGHT-PATTERSON AIRBASE

"Hmm! What do we have here???"

"Uh... A genuine Me-262 "Swallow." My mom died and dad was in the war and, well, you know, we were kinda digging aorund in the basement when Billy turned it over..." *sniff*

"Fascinating! Can you tell me anything else? You say your father was in the war? How'd he get it back to the States?"

"*ah-hm!* Well, dad was in the Combat Engineers and he was interested in airplane stuff. He sez he found it in a bunker near a stretch of highway somewhere in Germany. Some town... Dunkeldorf... Winkelworf... Gugenheim... Something like that. Anyways, he and some buddies took it apart and shipped it back in K-ration boxes marked 'spoiled' to some warerhouse in town. He and a few friends came home after the war and... well.. spent weekends for about 20 years-- off 'n' on-- puttin' it back together. We weren't allowed downstairs for a long time. Mom just took beers downstairs on Saturdays and muttered 'That man o' mine!' Ha!"

"Yes! Your father was quite a man to disassemble and reassemble such a craft unnoticed!"

"Heh! Daddy was always very clever!"

"Yes... well.. You are essentially correct. What you have here is a fully-functional relic of Hitler's Third Reich. An Me-262 "Swallow," as you said. What makes this a real find are the live munitions that your father lovingly restored to the bomb racks and ammuntion bays of this jet fighter..."

"Oh, my!"

"Yes! And the flight suit and instruction manuals for operating and servicing this old warbird are still in the cockpit, waiting for some valiant superman of Hitler's Thousand Year Reich to take the controls and...!"

"You say such nice things! Daddy would be so proud!"

"*Ah-hmm! Well! I get ahead of myself. I didn't mean to wax poetic! *Ah-hm!* Well! I mean, it's not everyday you get a chance to look over a piece of air history like this, in this conditon, unmolested and gathering dust in a veteran's basement for 20 years!"

"He-hee!"

"Do you have any idea of its worth?"

*Shrug* "Tee-hee! No! No, not really!"

*Sigh* "Well, my dear, I'm afraid I have some disappointing news for you. Authorities in Germany have found BUNKERS! FULL! of Me-262 Swallows."

"Oh dear..."

"Yes, I'm afraid the arms market is currently glutted with more "Swallows" than the market can buy. In fact, there are more surplus Me-262's than surplus De Loreans."

*sniff!* "Oh."

"But don't lose hope, dear. Dealers like myself expect many graspy, new owners to crack up many of these in accidents, or just sell them off to states in Central Asia and Africa to shake the stigma of owning' Nazi stuff.' It may take 10 years for a rebound in the Me-262 market, but your bird should be worth $100,000 by then."

"That's wonderful Thank you!"

"Yes! And thank YOU very much for bringing it by!"

*BLING!* Surplus Operational Nazi Me-262 'Swallow' $20-$100,000

[Consort]

Messerschmitt Me 262A-1a

Type	Fighter
Engine	2 x Jumo 004B turbojet
Performance Max speed Service ceiling Range	870 km/h 11.450 m 1.050 km
Weight Empty Max	3.800 kg 6.400 kg
Armament	4 x 30 mm MK 108 cannon
Dimensions Span Length Height	12,48 m 10,60 m 3,84 m
Operators	Germany

[Southack]

"We disagree on that. But even Woodrow Wilson said as much at the time."

What did they ever invent on their own?

[Ford Fairlane]

The Ho IX was awesome

The pilots position was prone, facing forward to try to get past the problems of G forces

[Live free or die]

Yeah that's right, it's a real pity its in that shack collecting dust instead of on public display! I'd pay whatever they want to see it restored and flyable!

[pierrem15]

Looks a lot like a B52, doesn't it, with the over wing and underwing mounted engines? Maybe they were copying heavy bomber design from shot-down US aircraft.

[Starrgaizr]

Bombs under the runway... that would give me even more incentive to grease in my landings.

[fish hawk]

You get the ME 109 and I'll get a P 51 mustang and I'll meet you at 10,000 ft. Good luck.

[UnBlinkingEye]

It took almost 60 years to find these... how long will it take to find Iraq's WMD

LOL

I guess Bush is off the hook, courtesy of the Stasi.

[Southack]

USAF Museum

Northrop XP-79B "Flying Ram" Length : 4.27m Wing Span : 11.58m Height : 2.13m Wing Area : 25.83 Square Meter All-Up Weight : 3,932Kg Engine : Westinghouse 19-B X 2 Max Speed : 880Km/h Cruis Speed : 772Km/h Range : 1,598Km Service Ceiling : 12,192m Crew : 1 Armament : 12.7mm Machine Gun X 4 First Flight: Nov 1944

[elbucko]

When one adds up all the "kills" the Germans claim, not just the ones listed, the total exceeds the number of the loss totals for all allied aircraft. I think the Krauts were counting their ammunition as "kills". In the end, it doesn't matter anyway. The German's lost.

[Excuse_My_Bellicosity]

Pretty weird, thanks for the ping!

[Consort]

[Live free or die]

Looks a lot like a B52, doesn't it, with the over wing and underwing mounted engines? Maybe they were copying heavy bomber design from shot-down US aircraft.

I woulda said a mix of B-36 and B-47 what with the forward section and the engines arrayed as they are. I'm not sure what you're looking at with the 'underwing engines'. I think you're looking at the HS-293 air-to-air missiles (another German innovation) mounted on the wings.

[Burkeman1]

Go do a google search on it. It is commonly accepted that Germany was the leading scientific country of the age in the early 20th century. But if you want a more down to home example- Quentin Roosevelt (Son of Teddy) was killed in WWI flying an already out of date French plane against the far more sophisticated German planes of the era because American Industry, after spending a billion dollars, had failed to produce even one combat plane.

Americans were far more ingenious in new inventions but once invented- the Germans exploited them far better than us.

[Experiment 6-2-6]

but a thorough check on the claims in the Stasi files - 140 km of them that will still take a number of years to decipher

Not to gets off topic, or nuthin', but what exactly is this 140 km of them?

Is that, like, if put end to end, they would be 140 kilometers high?

Somebody clue me in here...

[elbucko]

I'd rather have a Spitfire MkV. However the Spit MKXIV was more than a match for any German prop aircraft and was the first to "kill" an Me-262.

[Southack]

LOCKHEED F-80C "SHOOTING STAR"

The Shooting Star was the first USAF aircraft to exceed 500 mph in level flight, the first American jet airplane to be manufactured in large quantities and the first USAF jet to be used in combat. Designed in 1943, the XP-80 made its maiden flight on Jan. 8, 1944. Several early P-80s were sent to Europe for demonstration, but WW II ended before the aircraft could be employed in combat. (The aircraft was redesignated in 1948 when "P" for "Pursuit" was changed to "F" for "Fighter.") Of 1,731 F-80s built, 798 were F-80Cs.

On Nov. 8, 1950, an F-80C flown by Lt. Russell J. Brown, flying with the 16th Fighter-Interceptor Squadron, shot down a Russian-built MiG-15 in the world's first all-jet fighter air battle.

SPECIFICATIONS
Span: 38 ft. 10 1/2 in.
Length: 34 ft. 6 in.
Height: 11 ft. 4 in.
Weight: 16,856 lbs. max.
Armament: Six .50-cal. machine guns and eight 5 in. rockets or 2,000 lbs. bombs
Engine: Allison J33 of 5,400 lbs. thrust (with water-alcohol injection)
Cost: $93,456
Serial number: 49-696
C/N: 080-2444

PERFORMANCE
Maximum speed: 580 mph (928 kmh).
Cruising speed: 437 mph (700 kmh).
Range: 1,090 miles
Service Ceiling: 46,800 ft.