Split Decision: Supreme court upholds grad policy, strikes Undergrad

MSNBC Live | 06-23-03

[Brian S]

Supreme Court rules in favor of U. of Michigan Admissions Policy

[CollegeRepublican]

So there is a chance that the undergrad case will fall the other direction and the admission policy will be found unconstitutional?

[Captain Kirk]

Well....that is something. I wonder how strongly it was struck down, however.

[goodnesswins]

OK....wonder how they kept one, but not the other?

[Mo1]

I know ...

[Howlin]

The undergraduate policy was the really bad one..........this is stunning.

The law school had a more narrowly drawn policy, so sez Major Garrett.

[firewalk]

Thanks for the ping

[XJarhead]

O'Connor is a notorious waffler and hair-splitter. Queen of the "balancing test". At this point, I'd be surprised if the undergrad decision comes out the same way. Drawing a distinction between the law school policy and the undergrad policy is precisely the type of thing she does as a matter of course.

I'm putting my money on a "split decision".

[Mamzelle]

Good grief, takes with one hand and gives with the other. This is so absurd--a ruling to confuse and increase litigation. I'd be happier if it had gone all the way to undergrad--at least there'd be more than smoke to fight...

[AntiGuv]

Excellent! Had the undergrad points system been upheld, that would've been a true travesty. I can somewhat accept the law school decision - although I would've chosen a different outcome..

[ewing]

What does this mean? Its okay for grad school but not okay for undergrads?

[Howlin]

It just did.

[CollegeRepublican]

bingo!

[dogbyte12]

Rush was right Bush wimped out on this one too.

Todd take it somewhere else. Bush did not order Sandra Day to vote how she apparently did. Your pathological hatred for the Commander in Chief is getting a bit dull. I suppose you are going to blame him for global warming next.

[CMClay]

"Undergrad program Admission Policy struke down."

You didn't get in either I'm guessing.

[Howlin]

They didn't have the same policy; the undergraduate program was the program that had the 20 points for being black.

Race can BE a factor but not THE factor.

[Numbers Guy]

So there is a chance that the undergrad case will fall the other direction and the admission policy will be found unconstitutional?

Damn, I nailed this one. Too bad I'm not this good on NCAA tournament pools.

As an alum of Michigan and having read the school's propaganda, I knew that the undergrad policy was far more arbitrary than the law school policy.

[tomahawk]

We now have a racial spoils system society.

Institutionalized racism.

[goldstategop]

I take it was because it used race as an exclusive criterion for admissions? The U of Michigan can use still use race in deciding who gets in but they have to weigh other factors and must use race sparingly. As I said a few moments ago, lots of ligitation is in store in the future. The lawyers are going to duke it out over to when and how far race can be considered and what sparingly means. The SCOTUS has given the country a masterpiece in legal legerdemain here.

[XJarhead]

Heh. Put down my prediction of a split decision just as it popped up here. O'Connor makes me want to retch. I'd have more respect for someone who was more liberal but at least applied some consistent principles. She's just a legislator sitting on the bench.

[sweetliberty]

What I want to know is when are they going to go after the descendants of the black slavetraders in Africa for reparations and how are they going to prevent those blacks whose ethnic roots are in Jamaica or Haiti or other non-African countries from benefitting by affirmative action since they were not slaves and when can we resurrect the offer to send these malcontents back to their utopian Africa? That offer was made once after the war and they declined. Maybe things were not so good there after all, hmmm?

[hchutch]

One out of two.

We've got to get the Senate more solidly our way, and thereby get votes for cloture.

[cinFLA]

Rush was right Bush wimped out on this one too.

You wimped out on Bush. Or are you just one of those anti-Bush libertarians that sour this forum.

[justshe]

Points system in undergrad is unconstitutional. Law school is that race CAN be a factor of consideration....there were NO points attached to the law school 'consideration'.

This makes sense to me, actually.

[xrp]

Question: Do you love someone who points a gun at your face and steals your money?

[MississippiMan]

This is why we MUST fight for all of Bush's judges.

It would help if he fought himself.

MM

[AntiGuv]

The law school took account of race as one factor amongst many - toward 'promoting' diversity; the undergrad admissions awarded a predetermined number of points to every minority applicant.

[So Cal Rocket]

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

[ewing]

Good, this sounds like a victory..

[dogbyte12]

Anybody know the differences between the two policies? The 20 points for being a minority from what I have just heard was only part of the undergrad program. Are there any other differences between the two policies that would suggest the split vote?

[StatesEnemy]

Rush was right Bush wimped out on this one too.

He didn't wimp out... he did EXACTLY what he wanted to do.

The Elite in this country (of either major political stripe) have an agenda that includes importing cheap labor, expanding the power of government, and squashing ANY attempt by the American People to take back their country.

Bush is just Gore-lite

[Howlin]

I'm getting the impression for the talking heads that the law school one was the lesser of the two.

Bob Woodson is on Fox and saying he is pleased with this decision!

[hchutch]

The undergrad program was so blatant it was going tobe tossed. That was a given. I think the law school program was a longer shot, but we got one of `em, and so things have moved a bit to the right on this.

Not perfect, but it could have been a lot worse.

[Howlin]

EXACTLY!!!!!!

[StriperSniper]

Institutionalized racism.

Yup, It's official, I'm a second class citizen. : (

[justshe]

You didn't get in either I'm guessing.

---

Never applied. What a strange comment.

[YaYa123]

"This shows how important the judicial branch really is. This is why we MUST fight for all of Bush's judges"

You are right, but we are ineffectual in fighting for judges. Winning some Senate seats will make make President Bush's judicial confirmations a piece of cake. We simply must throw out some democrat senators.

And whoever urged caution before reacting to the first decision was very wise. We always need to wait a bit before we go off the deep end, especially with seat of the pants Supreme Court interpretations.

[goldstategop]

Yup. The undergrad admissions policy was a blatant quota. That's why it was struck down. You have to subtle in awarding a minority.

[Mo1]

What does this mean? Its okay for grad school but not okay for undergrads?

FNC is saying that race can be a factor but not the only factor and that it is not fair to give more points due to one's race

[doug from upland]

The battle for the Supreme Court is playing out right now in the Senate. It is almost the second Civil War and just as important. The court must turn further right or this nation is screwed.

[sweetliberty]

"So much for the blindfold on Lady Justice."

Maybe we should just go ahead and paint her black, and while we're at it, might as well paint the statue of liberty too and change the last phrase of the pledge of allegiance to "liberty and justice for blacks."

[Snerfling]

Jeez, the first 60 points are all gloom & doom. I actually had to watch Peter Jennings to get a straight story. In essence, race can be a factor, along with legacies, sports, etc. What can't be used is the point system, quotas, preferential treatment, etc.

They'll probably end up using a system like CA where UM will have to focus on income, not race. Since they correlate pretty highly, most people don't get too upset about minority district high school outreach programs.

[CollegeRepublican]

This makes sense to me, actually.

Makes some sense to me also, but it would make more sense if your place on the social ladder were taken into account. I went to school with some really rich black kids and very few poor ones.

[Brian S]

A few more details...

Race-based admissions upheld

White students' rights not violated by Michigan law school

By Gregory Robb, CBS Marketwatch.com

Last Update: 10:22 AM ET June 23, 2003

WASHINGTON (CBS.MW) - The Supreme Court has upheld university admissions policies aimed at promoting racial diversity.

In a slim 5 to 4 vote, the court said that the University of Michigan's race-conscious admissions policies were constitutional.

In a majority opinion, written by Supreme Court Justice Sandra Day O'Connor, the court found that the law school's race-conscious admissions program was narrowly tailored and did not violate white students' constitutional rights to equal treatment.

The court found that the equal protection clause under the Constitution does not prohibit the law school's "narrowly tailored use of race in admission decisions to fulfill a compelling interest in obtaining the educational benefits that flow from a diverse student body."

This is the first Supreme Court ruling on race preference in college admissions since 1978. Legal experts have said the ruling could have ramifications far beyond college admission procedures.

Many large corporations filed friend of the court briefs defending their own diversity programs.

There were two cases, but only one was decided. One challenged the university's law school admission program, which gives African American and other minority students special consideration in order to ensure that there are some minorities in each law school class.

The court did not rule on a second case, which challenged Michigan's undergraduate school policy to give minorities an automatic 20-point bonus on the school's 150-point rating system.

[TLBSHOW]

BUMP

[Howlin]

Maybe you should read the entire decision before you jump off the cliff.

The people on TV don't seem as upset as you do.

[YaYa123]

CNN's Franken, FOX's Major Garrett, and MSNBC's Pete Williams should refuse to make these instant analyses...they can't possibly know get it right, or explain it comprehensively to viewers, without at least a minimum amout of time, to read the decision.

Noise....it's just noise.

[XJarhead]

Law school is that race CAN be a factor of consideration....there were NO points attached to the law school 'consideration'. This makes sense to me, actually.

All that means is that they can give an equal or even greater preference as long as they don't do it overtly. Or perhaps its better to say that subjective racial preferences are fine (law school), but objective racial preferences (points) are not.

As soon as I saw O'Connor as the author of the first opinion, the result was obvious. So to that extent, it does "make sense". She's wonderful at writing opinions that raise more questions than they answer.

[Lysander]

Thomas Jefferson is rolling over in his grave.

Has been for some time now. Sad, very sad.

[B Knotts]

Doesn't make any sense to me...or, apparently, the four dissenting justices.

The O'Connor crowd (yes, I'm guessing here) has just created precedence for "diversity" as a compelling state interest.

This awful decision will haunt us for decades.

[Howlin]

5 to 4 in the undergraduate case and 5 to 4 in the law school case.