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'Hitler's Pope' tried to help Jews, say documents
The Sunday Telegraph ^ | February 16, 2003 | Michael Burleigh

Posted on 02/15/2003 5:47:40 PM PST by MadIvan

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To: NativeNewYorker
Men aren't angels, and it would be foolish to pretend they are. That some clerics were beastly while others were noble shouldn't be a surprise.


I have no argument with that statement. But it is easy to believe lies about people who are "the other." And it is easy to attack the dead. Spend some time looking at other opinions and sources. Hitler's Pope is a malicious lie.
61 posted on 02/16/2003 10:41:35 AM PST by mlmr
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To: Heidi Doody
The sources for the 800,000 figure are Jewish, not Catholic. It is true Mussolini in the late thirties bowed to German pressure in denying rights to Jews in Italy, but Italians refused to obey the law on this. At the height of the holocaust all of Europe's Jewry flocked to Italy. I got my comment on Schindler, by the way, from the Wall Street Journal. I'll try to do a google search to track all this down. You are badly informed, however, about Catholic efforts on behalf of Jews.
62 posted on 02/16/2003 11:16:40 AM PST by ultima ratio
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To: mlmr
thanks for the links.

very helpful
63 posted on 02/16/2003 11:19:50 AM PST by edwin hubble
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To: mlmr
I was referring to a different book all throughout my posts, NOT "Hitler's Pope".
64 posted on 02/16/2003 11:20:01 AM PST by NativeNewYorker (Freepin' Jew Boy)
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To: mlmr; Land of the Irish; Heidi Doody; Alberta's Child; pabianice; MarMema; nickcarraway; ...
Thank you. Let me return the favor. Hitler and: the occult, social Darwinism, and Nietzsche (who is probably fairly popular with some in FR).

Helpful when confronting people who claim Hitler was a "Christian." Hardly. Of course the Bible is the clearest refutation of that absurdity.

Hitler and the occult:
http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/resources/books/annual3/chap09.html
http://www.dropbears.com/b/broughsbooks/military/occult_nazism.htm
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/7069/hitler.html
http://logosresourcepages.org/hitler.html

Hitler and Social Darwinism (socialism combined with eugenics and racism):
http://www.toolan.com/hitler/fuhrer.html
http://www.straight-talk.net/evolution/hit.htm
http://husky1.stmarys.ca/~wmills/course203/8Racism.html
http://www.gennet.org/metro15.htm
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Rampart/4871/Darwin.html

Hitler and Nietzsche:
http://www.j-bradford-delong.net/TCEH/Nietzsche.html
http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~brians/hum_303/nietzsche.html
http://www.rjgeib.com/thoughts/nietzsche/nietzsche.html
http://www.worldagesarchive.com/Reference_Links/Reinventing_Nietzsche.htm
http://www.needham.k12.ma.us/high_school/cur/Baker_00/baker_1800_soc/baker_jw_gg_p3/friedrich.htm

Finally, I suggest this book/documentary, about how such evils grow in cultures....
http://www.rationalpi.com/theshelter/live.html
http://www.freemedia.org/videos/howshouldwe.html
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0891072926/ref=ase_rationalpi/002-0567108-0640019
65 posted on 02/16/2003 11:29:02 AM PST by unspun (Well after the beginning, God created people who started calling themselves enlightened....)
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To: MadIvan
#65, with due respect for poster of article!
66 posted on 02/16/2003 11:30:16 AM PST by unspun (Well after the beginning, God created people who started calling themselves enlightened....)
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To: Heidi Doody
Anyone who has listened to the anti-Semitic rantings of Radio Maria in Poland recently no nothing has changed in Poland. Reading many of the comments on this thread I realise that the same is true elsewhere.

"Croatia's prime minister has angrily condemned the use of Nazi slogans and salutes at a reception in the capital, Zagreb, for the national handball team.

Prime Minister Ivica Racan warned such behaviour "could not be tolerated in Croatia". Fascist salutes are unacceptable... and shame us in the eyes of Europe

Dozens of people in the crowd gave the salute - allegedly after nationalist folk singer Marko Perkovic Thompson shouted a slogan used by Croatian Nazis in World War II.

Last month, Croatian skier Ivica Kostelic had to apologise for remarks interpreted by some as pro-Nazi."

BBC

67 posted on 02/16/2003 11:33:14 AM PST by MarMema
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To: mlmr
Here's one Jewish source for my numbers: Rabbi Lapide in Three Popes and the Jews.

“The final number of Jewish lives in whose rescue the Catholic Church had been the instrument is thus at least 700,000 souls, but in all probability it is much closer to… 860,000.” [19]

This was a greater rescue effort than the combination of all Jewish relief organizations in Europe put together. It dwarfed the Red Cross and all other aid societies as well.

So stash your nonsense about the inauthenticity of these figures. Why do you suppose the rabbi of Rome praised Pius XII so extravagantly after the war--as well as Einstein and Golda Meir, among other prominent Jews? It was only after a bit of Soviet disinformation came out in the fifties--a revisionist play called The Deputy--that the rumors began about Pius XII. The play was anti-Catholic propaganda--but the popular culture embraced its lies--and the rest is history.
68 posted on 02/16/2003 11:35:46 AM PST by ultima ratio
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To: mlmr; NativeNewYorker
Don't believe everything you read.

Amen. I have also read Cornwell's "book". When you add to the fact that it is full of lies and distortions (and the very first one is the cover photo on the book, which was taken of then-Cardinal Pacelli in Germany, but well before Hitler came to power) the fact that Cornwell himself is a failed seminarian who has written a number of books viciously attacking the Church, then you see where the hatred is coming from.

I too have friends who swallow the anti-Catholic propaganda hook, line, and sinker. They at least have an excuse of sorts, because they are children of Holocaust survivors. I can see how looking around for people to blame would be their natural reaction, but in this case they're blaming a man who did all he could with the limited power of the Church ("How many divisions does the pope have?") to save as many as he could. In his position, he had to work quietly behind the scenes, because public pronouncements simply attracted the attention of the Nazis. When the Dutch bishops condemned the Nazis, they were brutally silenced, and the Nazis stepped up their extermination of Dutch Jews.

69 posted on 02/16/2003 11:41:25 AM PST by AnAmericanMother (. . . 20/20 hindsight is easy, especially since Hitler is safely dead these 50 years. . . .)
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To: Heidi Doody
Your statement that Pope Pius XII was a Nazi collaborator is disputed not only by Zolli and Lapide, but by other prominent Jews in post-War era such as Golda Meir and Albert Einstein.

Abandoning his people during the greatest danger he had hidden in the Vatican like the coward and traitor that he was.

Now that's just delightful. On one hand you criticize the Catholic Church for being Nazi collaborators, but in cases where Catholics actually did something and offered refuge to Jews, you have the nerve to call those Jews "cowards and traitors." Your bigotry is transparent.

As for Edith Stein, why do you imagine anyone in the Jewish community actually cares? Do you think she was the first Jew to have converted?

The Catholic Church doesn't seek the advice of Jews, Muslims, Hindus, or anyone else, during the canonization process. The fact that Edith Stein was a convert played a prominent role in her canonization -- the fact that she was originally Jewish did not. Her recognition is for her life of dedication and devotion as a Carmelite sister.

You might want to do some research and see what kind of confusion existed even among Jews in the years leading up to the Holocaust. American Jews who petitioned Roosevelt to help the Jews in Germany in the 1930s were chastised by prominent German Jews who could not imagine that the Third Reich was anything more than a short-lived pipe dream.

70 posted on 02/16/2003 11:51:35 AM PST by Alberta's Child (I lost my Right mind a long time ago . . . LOL.)
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To: mlmr; Heidi Doody
Sorry, my last post was intended for Heidi Doody, not you. I apologize.
71 posted on 02/16/2003 11:52:46 AM PST by ultima ratio
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To: mlmr
thanks for the links.

very helpful
72 posted on 02/16/2003 11:53:37 AM PST by edwin hubble
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To: Heidi Doody
December 10, 2001

Nationalists attack NGO activists over Croatian Nazi monument
DATELINE: Zagreb

Around 200 nationalists Monday confronted representatives of non-governmental organisations in the central town of Slunj who wanted to protest against a monument erected to a Croatian World War Two Nazi commander, HINA news agency reported.

Activists of the NGOs tried to protest against the monument to Jure Francetic, commander of the Ustashe, the forces of the Nazi puppet state that ruled Croatia during the war, but the nationalists prevented them from doing so by organising a counter-protest.

The NGO activists, who came from the capital Zagreb, wanted the monument to be removed. President Stipe Mesic last year condemned local authorities for erecting such a monument.

Special police units had to intervene and protect NGO activists, otherwise they would have been beaten by angry nationalists, the report said.

Francetic, killed in 1943, was commander of the so-called "Black Legion" Ustashe battalion, responsible for numerous war crimes against Croatian Jews, Serbs and Roma during the war.

73 posted on 02/16/2003 11:53:59 AM PST by MarMema
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To: AnAmericanMother
I too have friends who swallow the anti-Catholic propaganda hook, line, and sinker. They at least have an excuse of sorts, because they are children of Holocaust survivors. I can see how looking around for people to blame would be their natural reaction . . .

I once met a fascinating Jewish man who had fled from the Soviet Union during the Cold War (in fact, he was a friend of a prominent Soviet chess grandmaster who had fled at the same time). He told me that Russian Jews used the term "Great Catastrophe" instead of "Holocaust" to describe the events of the 1930s and 1940s in Eastern Europe.

What was most interesting was the reason why this was the case -- I won't go into details, but if anyone but a Jew had said this he would be roundly condemned as an anti-Semite.

74 posted on 02/16/2003 11:57:14 AM PST by Alberta's Child
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To: Heidi Doody; FormerLib; George W. Bush
U.S. News & World Report
November 15, 1999
SECTION: WORLD REPORT; Vol. 127 , No. 19; Pg. 44
HEADLINE: Did a wartime pope anticipate a Nazi victory?
BYLINE: By Richard Z. Chesnoff

Few states guard the secrecy of their archives more closely than the Vatican. But as the United States and other nations continue declassifying their World War II documents, more and more details of the behavior and attitude of the Vatican's wartime leader, Pope Pius XII, have come to light.

Now it appears that during some of the most crucial moments of the war, the Vatican believed that Nazi Germany would probably defeat the Allies. In a recently rediscovered coded cable sent to the State Department on June 29, 1942, Harold Tittmann, the U.S. envoy to the Holy See, reports that "a highly placed Vatican official has intimated to me for the first time . . . that he did not (repeat not) believe that the Allies were in a position to win the war in Europe." Tittmann goes on to say that he is especially concerned because the official in question "is in close touch constantly with the pope himself and has always professed to me his enthusiasm for the Allied cause." Tittmann and other Allied envoys feared that given this view, Pope Pius XII would push for a compromise Allied peace "settlement" and "that the pope's peacemaking ambitions might be exploited for their own ends by the Axis powers." Washington, Tittmann wrote, "should make every effort to disabuse him of any notion he might have that the Allies might agree to anything short of complete defeat of Hitler."

This latest insight into the Vatican view of Nazi power--combined with Pope Pius's obsessive fear of Soviet communism--lends new understanding to the wartime pope's refusal to unequivocally condemn the Nazi slaughter of the Jews. It also adds a new dimension to the controversy over the extent of the Vatican's participation in the postwar "rat-line," the odious underground railroad that smuggled "anti-Communist" Nazi war criminals and sympathizers from Europe to Latin America--together with major parts of loot plundered from Jews and other victims of Nazism.

A soon-to-be-released Argentine government report confirms the Holy See's hand in seeking Latin American visas for fleeing Nazis. According to newly declassified Argentine government archives, many such asylum requests were made directly to the Argentine ambassador by the Vatican Secretariat of State's Giovanni Montini. The report also says that Cardinal Eugene Tisserant appealed to Buenos Aires for visas for Vichy regime collaborators fleeing liberated France.

Booty. The Vatican especially interceded on behalf of Croatia's Ustasha Nazis, including Anton Pavelic, the Ustasha "fuhrer" who played a major role in the extermination of tens of thousands of Serbs, Jews, and Gypsies. The new Argentine government report, the result of three years of intense research, confirms that senior Vatican "personalities" pressed for the postwar "escape to Argentina of Pavelic, together with a relatively important retinue of followers and looted assets." Included in those assets: almost $ 50 million in jewelry as well as gold coins and ingots, much of it plundered from Yugoslav Jews, and part of as much as $ 250 million in Ustasha booty believed stashed for "safekeeping" in the Vatican treasury at the end of the war.

75 posted on 02/16/2003 12:00:45 PM PST by MarMema
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To: Heidi Doody
Institute for Jewish Policy Research and American Jewish Committee

"According to the Zagreb Jewish community (report dated March 1998), two Catholic churches (in Zagreb and Split) continue to be used to propagate Pavelic's ideology and his Ustasa movement. 'It has become common practice to hold services for Pavelic when followers of his political ideas get together.'

The government of President Tudjman continues to support the rehabilitation of the war-time pro-Nazi Independent State of Croatia and its leadership. Thus, for example, anti-fascist monuments around the country are being demolished and the names of the fascist murderers wiped clean. At the end of 1997 the Croatian parliament changed its name to 'Parliament of the Croatian State', a name that was used only during the existence of the Independent State of Croatia.

On 4 October 1998, during a visit to Croatia, the Pope beatified Zagreb's Second World War archbishop, Alojzije Stepinac. Archbishop Stepinac is revered by Croatians as an anti-Communist martyr but reviled by others as a fascist collaborator. The beatification took place despite protests from the Serbian government and a demand by the Simon Wiesenthal Center that it be postponed 'until after the completion of an exhaustive study of Stepinac's war-time record'. Croatian Jewish groups dissociated themselves from the protest.

In May 1997 newspapers carried reports stating that in Karlovac, a town near Zagreb, unknown perpetrators had desecrated Jewish graveyards and defaced gravestones with Ustasa and Nazi symbols.

In the autumn of 1997 daubings of swastikas were found on a plate commemorating the Zagreb synagogue which was destroyed in 1942.

The most controversial issue in Croatia in 1997 was the publication of a Croatian translation of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. The publication was particularly damaging in so far as the preface contained no warning about the book's historical inaccuracy and antisemitic contents. Owing to considerable publicity in the media, according to the Zagreb Jewish community, the book remained on the bestseller lists for several months

In 1997 the newspaper Narod, edited by the Catholic priest Ante Bakovic, published a number of articles depicting Jews as conspirators who control international industry, media and banking."

76 posted on 02/16/2003 12:16:37 PM PST by MarMema
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To: MarMema
I was acquainted with the details of the aid given by the Vatican via that monastery (Franciscan?) in the hills above Rome as a temporary refuge to fleeing SS war criminals with Jewish loot. They stayed hidden there until the Vatican could get them smuggled out of Europe to escape justice.

But this is the first reporting I've seen on their efforts to do the same with Vichy collaborators and the Ustashi. And all of it paid for by the wealth of those murdered by those same "refugees".

The remarks about whether Pius thought the Allies would lose the war don't really apply to what the Vatican was doing to profit from genocidal killers escaping justice.

This pope has managed to apologize for a lot of things. Why doesn't he apologize for what was done by living members of his hierarchy and his own flock? And for helping the worst killers of the twentieth century to escape the consequences of their crimes? And return to the descendents of the victims the blood money they extorted to help these genocidal killers escape justice?

This doesn't settle the matter of whether Pius actually abetted the killing of Jews and others. But it makes a strong case for his willingness to profit from their deaths. And that's not a significant degree of moral difference.

This all ties in with the Vatican's use of Nazi financial staff in its own management until it was exposed and they had to get rid of them. That was about 15 years ago, I think.
77 posted on 02/16/2003 12:22:35 PM PST by George W. Bush
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To: MarMema
In 1997 the newspaper Narod, edited by the Catholic priest Ante Bakovic, published a number of articles depicting Jews as conspirators who control international industry, media and banking."

How long will we have to wait until the usual Croatian Holocaust deniers will show up in here and try to tell the gullible that the Vatican knows nothing of such terrible things and can't control its local representatives? One might accept that the current pope may be too senile to know of it or that this information is kept from him but that does not excuse the Vatican and the Roman church from its responsibilities for such murderous hatemongering from within their own ranks.

I don't see why there is not a widespread demand among the RC for the removal and repudiation of such priests. It's just like the tolerance of the pedophile priests. They just keep trying to ignore it.
78 posted on 02/16/2003 12:35:49 PM PST by George W. Bush
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To: MarMema
I guess it is only a matter of time before they beatify Pavelich.
79 posted on 02/16/2003 12:56:47 PM PST by FormerLib
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To: George W. Bush; All
What makes this whole discussion laughable is that when Pope John Paul II publicly condemns abortion as an abhorrent violation of human dignity, liberal Jewish Americans are among his most vocal critics -- pointing out that the Pope has no business imposing his morality on the U.S., claiming that such statements violate "the separation of church and state," etc.

I guess it really depends on whose ox is being gored.

80 posted on 02/16/2003 1:06:23 PM PST by Alberta's Child
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