'German crew scuttled Bismarck'

scotsman ^ | 2/14/03

[Cloud William]

FWIW, I've heard the story about the Bismarck having its seacocks opened by the crew for years. Whether they did or not is really immaterial - the British were going to keep pounding it until it sank.

As far as comparing one battleship to another, I just tripped over a press release concerning a new, as yet unreleased computer game which may allow the player to actually put an Iowa-class ship up against the Bismarck. This might be worth watching for...

***************

Midway is a real-time 3D tactical/strategy game that adapts the naval battles of the Second World War. It introduces how the naval warfare changed during WW2 - from the dreadnaughts protecting the memory of Battle of Jutland to the forerunners of modern carriers. The player may control different vessels in real or hypothetical naval battles. The fleet consists of ships, captains, officers and crew of different abilities. In order to achieve victory, an effective team should be forged.

The episodes follow each other in a truly historical way. The player may choose the American, English, German or Japanese side to serve, which also determines his/her own, controllable character, the hero. During the campaign the player may climb up on the career ladder: from a captain up to the rank of an admiral.

Fact sheet

Midway - Naval Battles
Developer: Mithis Games
Genre: Tactical, RTS
Planned Gold master delivery date: 1 September, 2003

Revolutionary 3D engine with abilities never seen before 3D action and tactical battle on the surface, in the air and beneath water
Uniquely realistic spectacle: sea and weather effects, real movements of ships
Unmatched, detailed tactical gameplay
Weather effects that greatly influence the tactics
Fleet units, formations, group tactics
Simple- but realistic resource management
RPG-elements: unique abilities of the crew, officers and captains which are capable of developing during the adventure
Team management: the officers and captains of the fleet are managed by the player
Historical ships, equipments and battles
4 nations to serve with different career possibilities
More than 20 exciting naval battle
More than 40 different ships, submarines and planes
More than 100 types of weapons and equipments
Multiplayer options via LAN or Internet

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[Polybius]

Let me play Billy Mitchell here. ;-)

Okay! ;-)

The Prince of Wales, Bismarck and Yamoto (not to mention the Mushashi) all had several things in common: thier AAA was inadequate by US standards...and they all had NO air cover against unopposed air attack.

Drat! The old "the Ostfriesland wasn't defending itself" defense.

I'll counter with.....That's why the U.S. didn't need super-battleships. The enemy battleships were vulnerable to our airpower and super-battleships served no cost-effective purpose.

On the other hand, the BBs proved very useful for bombardment

Very true. "Bloody" Tarawa demostrated the consequences of skimping on bombardment. We are now hearing of policy battles in the Penatgon between the brass and Rumsfeld on how long the Iraqi bombardment should be with Rumsfeld urging a short bombardment. I hope the lessons of Tarawa have not been forgotten.

.....and protecting the carriers.

Unless Admiral Halsey takes his battleships "Where?...the world wonders." ;-)

Be that as it may, the CVE ("Combustible, Vulnerable, Expendable") escort carriers of Taffy 3 still managed to beat off Kurita's battleships.

[Gnarly]

".....and protecting the carriers.

"Unless Admiral Halsey takes his battleships "Where?...the world wonders." ;-) "

;-) AS I RECALL, HE TOOK THE BBs ALONG TO PROTECT THE "FLEET" CARRIERS GOING AFTER THE DECOYS, LEAVING THE CVEs AND THE BEACHHEAD UNCOVERED.

"Be that as it may, the CVE ("Combustible, Vulnerable, Expendable") escort carriers of Taffy 3 still managed to beat off Kurita's battleships."

YEP, THEY PROVED TO TRULY BE COMBUSTIBLE, VULNERABLE AND EXPENDABLE....BUT THEY AND THEIR PILOTS DID ONE HELL OF A JOB. THEIR AGGRESSIVE ACTION APPARENTLY CONVINCED KURITA THAT A LARGER FORCE WAS OVER THE HORIZON.

[BenR2]

I remember a British sailor jumped into the water to save a German sailor and he was courtmartialed for leaving the ship without leave.

That jives with my impression that the British enlisted had no desire to leave helpless men to drown in the high seas. In this case, the British skipper made the wrong decision.

(But I'm Monday-morning quarterbacking.)

[1rudeboy]

If the ship WERE scuttled, the captain would have to be a bloody-minded incompetent with no regard for his crew.

A web-search under Gunther Lutjens is fascinating. He was no incompetent.

[JohnBovenmyer]

The much maligned Swordfish ended up arguably the most important naval plane of the European theater. Not only did it stop the Bismark, but it had earlier sunk the whole Italian fleet in harbor to give the UK naval superiority throughout the Med. Sometimes it is better to be lucky than to be good. Too bad we overlooked the Brits raid on Italy in planning our defenses at Pearl.

BTW another oft forgotten bit of Bismark trivia is that the Rodney torpedoed her in the final melee. Rodney and Nelson had a couple 24 inch tubes to go along with their 16 inch guns. This was the only case in history in which one capital ship torpedoed another.

[Gnarly]

I couldn't disagree about the importance of the Swordfish during the first couple of years in WWII in the European theater. It's hard to believe that the "modern" AAA of the Bismarck could not effectively track the Swordfish...because they were "geared for MODERN aircraft. I can't imagine this happening to any of the fast American BBs. I have also read that the Naval Cdrs at Pearl Harbor were well aware of the threat...and in fact fleet manueuvers as far back as 1937 had considered just such a threat. Obviously, the Japanese learned from the Swordfish attacks against the Italian fleet...and modified torpedoes accordingly.

I don't recall the torpedo attacks by the Rodney. Interesting that both Nelson and Rodney were "unusual" modifications of original British super battleship plans because of Washington Treaty. An interesting book about all this is "Dreadnought" by Richard Hough. According to this source, the IOWAs, regardless of their tonnage comparison to the Jap super BBS, were the "best protected" BBs ever constructed.

Another factor some disregard about the "IOWAS" and to a lesser extent the other US fast BBs was the superior fire control, the superior armor,and the effectiveness of the 16" "super heavy" shell.