Justice for Anna Guo (Ventura Co. Calif. alleged police abuse)

yellowworld.org ^ | 11/5/2002

[monday]

"I agree with you. Why is THIS pigeon-holed as "racist?" "

In the world we live in, ordinary police mis-conduct is swept under the rug. If it has a racial angle it is not so easily covered up. Hard to say whos right or wrong in this case though.

[monday]

"By your logic, even if an officer doesn't necessarily want to kill a person they should shoot to kill anyway because they may accidentally kill a person by shooting them in the shoulder or leg (even assuming prompt medical attention won't save them)."

LOL...I wouldn't call that logic:)

[cavtrooper21]

Sound familiar, like our own fearless LPD.

[Kaiwen]

Come on, she was a 14 year old asian girl, which means she was at least 6'5" and 240 pounds. They would have needed at least 7 or 8 cops to take her down.

[hopespringseternal]

By your logic, even if an officer doesn't necessarily want to kill a person they should shoot to kill anyway because they may accidentally kill a person by shooting them in the shoulder or leg (even assuming prompt medical attention won't save them).

Actually, I believe the advice is to shoot to stop, which means maximum vital tissue damage. Police are trained to aim for center of mass because in life-or-death situations, careful aim is not even physiologically possible.

The reason why shooting to wound is a bad idea legally is that you are admitting that you used deadly force against someone you weren't prepared to kill. The reason why it is a bad idea tactically and morally is tied to the physiological impossibility of it: If you are calm and collected enough to take careful aim, you probably aren't afraid for your life and therefore shouldn't be shooting.

[spunkets]

"Do you know that knives will pass through kevlar vests, unless you also have the ones that are rated to stop knives as well? Those are not standard issue police vests."

This was a 14 y/o girl. If you can't handle a 14y/o girl with a big knife w/o blasting away, then you shouldn't be a cop. This officer's name was Kristen. She is incompetant and so are the morons that hired her and gave her a badge and a gun. The DA's worse than incompetent. The proper action in this case is psych care, not prosecution.

[stumpy]

Only in the movies. If your going to shoot somebody, shoot to kill them. Otherwise don't use a firearm.

[hopespringseternal]

This was a 14 y/o girl. If you can't handle a 14y/o girl with a big knife w/o blasting away, then you shouldn't be a cop. This officer's name was Kristen.

Even a 14 year old girl can kill with a knife. One stab to the aorta or carotid and you have one dead cop. The cops may have an advantage over a 14 year old girl, but the risk is there and it is significant.

This case has "suicide by cop" written all over it.

[hopespringseternal]

In a one on one situation, or an assailant with a gun, yes. But how the heck is a 14 year old girl armed with a steak knife going to overpower FIVE police officers? A shot to wound would have also been a sound to summon help from other officers if they weren't already within reach. And unless this was awfully large house, how far away could another officer have been? There was only one dangerous individual in the house, so you have to think at least 2-3 of the officers would have been sticking close to that individual -- if they weren't, they've ALL got a lot of explaining to do.

Before you go jumping 14 year olds with knives, you better have your life insurance paid up.

Can five cops subdue a 14 year old armed with a knife? Absolutely. Can she kill a cop in the process? Absolutely.

If she had a gun, would you suggest the cops jump her? Guns are only more dangerous than knives in that they are ranged. One slice of a knife can end your life just as certainly as a well placed bullet.

[spunkets]

"The cops may have an advantage over a 14 year old girl, but the risk is there and it is significant."

The risk is only there if the cop is not good at defense against knife attacks. The kid was mentally unbalanced, female and thus was incapable of bringing effective technique to her knife attack. What I am really getting at is that unless you are a good martial artist, you should not be given the authority and duty to regularly confront citizens that may be violent.

Most of these confrontations will be with folks that can't handle stress for whatever reason and don't deserve to be killed offhand. Some do, but not all. Those kinds of distraut folk don't have what it takes to pose a real threat to a skilled martial artist. Hiring officers that are without calm self confidence and skill at self defense is antithetical to the idea they are there to serve and protect. Anyone that backs away from a 14y/o suicidal girl with a blade doesn't have what it takes have such duty. The sooner she comes within reach, the sooner the situation is defused.

[GovernmentShrinker]

I sort of figure that with 5 trained police officers at the scene, while the girl is 15 feet away from one of them, moving toward that officer and threatening her with a knife, one or more of the other 5 ought to be able to knock the girl down from another direction.

[hopespringseternal]

Hiring officers that are without calm self confidence and skill at self defense is antithetical to the idea they are there to serve and protect.

Maybe you should spend less time watching Mel Gibson and read some real cases of what happens to your body when someone threatens your life. The reason for the massive amount of training done by the military is that "calm self confidence" in that kind of situation is extremely rare. Nor is there any time for a rational assessment of the situation even if your brain isn't fried by adrenaline.

There simply isn't enough time or money to train cops to that level; they have to be out on the street dealing with crime rather than training to face Bruce Lee.

The kind of trick shooting you people are wishing for and extreme martial arts expertise are extremely rare to begin with, existing primarily on movie sets.

Hiring officers that are without calm self confidence and skill at self defense is antithetical to the idea they are there to serve and protect. Anyone that backs away from a 14y/o suicidal girl with a blade doesn't have what it takes have such duty. The sooner she comes within reach, the sooner the situation is defused.

You don't have the slightest clue what you are talking about. Really, find a good book on the subject.

[hopespringseternal]

I sort of figure that with 5 trained police officers at the scene, while the girl is 15 feet away from one of them, moving toward that officer and threatening her with a knife, one or more of the other 5 ought to be able to knock the girl down from another direction.

And maybe she turns just in time for him to impale himself on the knife, or he falls on it while knocking her down.

[BiffSchneider]

"And maybe she turns just in time for him to impale himself on the knife, or he falls on it while knocking her down."

Yeah, lots of bad things could have happened.

However, many effective PDs have non-lethal weapons, such as might better have been used when responding to a potential suicide, especially when they knew the suicidal person was a 14 y.o. girl.

I like yellowworld.org ("what color is your world?") too. It's got a nice story there:

http://www.yellowworld.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=150&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0

which lead me to this:

http://www.nyspc.net/about.html

[spunkets]

"spend less time watching Mel Gibson and read some real cases of what happens to your body when someone threatens your life."

Been there in real life. Didn't raise a heartbeat over 50-55bpm in over a dozen real life blade attacks by full grown men. In no case did I receive any unnecessary perforations. Only in one case, when I rescued an 18y/o girl from a rape attempt by 8 laitn kings, at o'dark hundred after the bars closed, did I actually think I might be cut to pieces. Still didn't raise the bpm. I thought sht, well this is a friggin' pain in the butt. I know the Lord is with me, but I'm also the meanest SOB in the valley and I decided the girl goes home unmolested. So she did. A 10min unflinching blank stare is all it took, while the girl walked. You've heard of white people, right? Well you never saw any as white as that Hispanic girl and the old lady sitting at the bus stop.

See it's all in your attitude and prior practice. I said staying calm, cool and collected is the key. That mental condition is essential if you are to maintain control. Your condition not only allows you to think fast and respond appropriately, it emanates to the bad guys and scares the hell out of them. That is unless the bad guys are also skilled, but I'm not talking about that here. By staying cool and using your mouth for the first parry, or staying silent and using your eyes you will avoid having to go any further, because you have scared the bad guy and taken away his will to fight. He knows he ain't that good and doesn't want to be injured. It works, that's why even 8 blade weilding gang bangers will back off from a little frigger.

The crazy will attack, but since he is crazy, he has no skill. It doesn't take much training for a man with sufficient mental and physical capacity to defeat a crazy quickly. Especially if the crazy is a woman, let alone only 14y/o girl.

"massive amount of training...they have to be...trick shooting...extreme martial arts expertise...existing primarily on movie sets...You don't have the slightest clue what you are talking about...find a good book on the subject."

All nonsense. I taught ordinary people. If they have the desire and mental capacity they can handle simple situations like this w/o getting excited and severely injured. If I was the Sheriff, I'd allow no deputy on a call that couldn't handle a sit. like this w/o resorting to blasting. That includes most adult males with bats, hammers and other clunky objects when the perp is an otherwise peaceable citizen that lost his job, wife giving him a hard time, or other distressful happening. I also won't put up with any whining about how they risk their lives every day. If they have that attitude they can go be a plumber, doctor, salesman, or other profession where they are otherwise mostly left defenseless by the leftists.

[spunkets]

BTW, a person with no skill, such as this 14y/o girl, will telegraph their intended thrust giving plenty of time to parry, grapple and force the knife down, all in one motion.

[Skywalk]

This is VERY simple. In what I've learned thus far while studying for the police exam, just because someone has a knife, even if walking in your direction does not grant license to use deadly force. Other things must be considered before you pull the trigger.

The better-equipped departments all have TASERs for just this sort of thing, a mentally unstable person who posed little real threat to a trained officer(or martial artist) If the officer who fired had backup, she did not have justification.

I must stress, this is not a 6-1 overdeveloped Caucasian or black boy or girl. Asian girls at 14(many hit puberty later or develop more slowly) are invariably SMALL. Simple technique would have assured disarmament by all but the tiniest, weakest and most incompetent officers.

While a small, deranged person can do damage, there's no doubt that potentially fatal shots were not justified in this case(ASSUMING the facts are as presented, even from the police angle)

[hopespringseternal]

You are full of it. Ask any competent, experienced martial arts instructor what happens when you try to take on 8 people. You probably won't live over it, and if you do it is because they want you to.

Quit watching movies, get a good book on the subject or take some training. Then you won't sound like a 13-year old with Mel Gibson delustions.

[Vic3O3]

I suppose it would have been too much to ask them to peppergas the little kid! Then whack her a good one on the arm with a Maglight or nightstick!

[hopespringseternal]

BTW, a person with no skill, such as this 14y/o girl, will telegraph their intended thrust giving plenty of time to parry, grapple and force the knife down, all in one motion.

Before you spout any more nonsense, why don't you try doing some reading or taking some training? Anyone who lets someone with a knife get within 10 feet of them is a fool.

Eight Latin Kings? I bet this one 14 year old would have carved you up real well.