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LIE-WITNESS LEADS COPS ASTRAY
New York Post ^ | 10/18/02 | NILES LATHEM and MARSHA KRANES

Posted on 10/18/2002 12:50:00 AM PDT by kattracks

Edited on 05/26/2004 5:09:36 PM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

October 18, 2002 -- A lying witness misled investigators in the Beltway sniper case, casting doubt on just what is known about the shadowy shooter or shooters, cops said yesterday.

A witness who claimed he saw the psycho who gunned down the last victim and then watched him flee in a cream-colored van may be charged with perjury or filing a false statement, authorities said.


(Excerpt) Read more at nypost.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Extended News; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: creamvan; dcsniper; dcsnipers; falsetestimony; falsewitness; homedepot; sniper; snipers; terrorism; van; witness

1 posted on 10/18/2002 12:50:00 AM PDT by kattracks
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To: kattracks
When are they going to tell us what the other witnesses saw?

2 posted on 10/18/2002 1:05:10 AM PDT by 4Freedom
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To: 4Freedom
When are they going to tell us what the other witnesses saw?

Maybe they're right not to. Stuff like this seems to flush out crackpots and people who are hallucinating.

If the cops ever get a clear picture of the perp(s), then yes. But based on this incident, they're probably wise to hold their cards to close their vests.

3 posted on 10/18/2002 1:15:06 AM PDT by The Other Harry
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To: 4Freedom
They aren't.

some think they already got the perps... sent them to guantanimo and we will never hear from them again. never.

if they were al qaida... we might not want to admit they were even here or that we got them... so that their buddies and partners would not know it... until it is too late...

here's hoping.

how long's it been since the last... murder?
two days, three?

We shall see...
alberta's child was the first one I heard assert that possibility here on free republic.
4 posted on 10/18/2002 1:16:36 AM PDT by Robert_Paulson2
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To: kattracks
If this "witness" is the same guy that Fox News dragged on its program, than I wouldn't believe a word he had to say. He was some Middle Eastern type, in a leather jacket, who thoroughly enjoy the exposure, but had nothing to say - I sense that even Fox News was embarrased to have him on the show.
5 posted on 10/18/2002 2:06:16 AM PDT by Dante3
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To: Dante3
That was Raymond Massis (on Greta's show last Wednesday), and no, he is NOT the discredited witness.

Massis was in the lot, heard the shot. He saw the fallen victim and peoples reactions after the shooting.

He saw neither the shooter nor his vehicle nor any weapon.


6 posted on 10/18/2002 2:18:26 AM PDT by SarahW
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To: SarahW
Might be interesting to find out what "type" the false witness is.

Could he have been a plant to purposely give our LEOs some false leads?

Also,there's a possibility he's just another OBL admirer that saw a chance to monkeywrench any decent leads on the spur of the moment to help out any terrorists trying to avoid capture.

7 posted on 10/18/2002 2:40:23 AM PDT by Free Trapper
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To: The Other Harry
My gut feeling is information that could lead to the capture of these snipers or that might prevent another death should be released to the public.

None of the talking heads involved in this investigation has struck me as being overly wise. They don't inspire a great deal of confidence, either.

This more smacks of typical CYA-SOP. The less they tell us, the less they have to explain about who these snipers might be and how they came to be here in the first place.

8 posted on 10/18/2002 3:36:48 AM PDT by 4Freedom
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To: 4Freedom
Shouldn't the authorities be urging everyone who has a right to carry a gun in the D.C. area, to be armed at all times? Here's why:

There are perhaps 100,000 "white vans" in the D.C. metropolian area. However, if an armed citizen saw the get-away vehicle and managed to put a couple of bullet holes in the back of it, then there would be exactly one "white van with bullet holes in the back of it." THAT is something that even the Keystone Kops could find.

I'm not talking about the armed citizen being a good enough shot in an emergency to kill or wound the sniper. Nor even to disable the white van with a shot through the engine block, or through the tires. I'm only talking about good enough to put a bullet into the van, and to report immediately to the searching police where on that van the bullet hole is.

It is the low-tech equivalent of what the Air Force and ground Artillary do in the military. It's called "marking" or "painting" the target. This is an obvious suggestion which might work, and would also drive the gun control nuts crazy. The very idea of using a citizen's gun to stop a criminal is anathema to them.

Congressman Billybob

This column is based on the fine work by FReepers in a thread on FR. Click for "Ballistics and Bullsh*t"

Click for "Til Death Do Us Part."

Click for "to Restore Trust in America"

9 posted on 10/18/2002 3:54:04 AM PDT by Congressman Billybob
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To: Robert_Paulson2
"If they were al-Qaida...we might not want to admit they were here or that we got them...so that their buddies and partners would not know it...until it is too late..."

That scenario sounds a little too Soviet Union/X-Files to me. I suppose it's possible our government could take the 'we have everything under control, but sorry we aren't at liberty to give the general public any of the details, they're classified' approach. But, that doesn't seem like it will fly for very long.

With 9 dead and 2 wounded, the families of the victims and the general public will start to demand answers.

If this is who we think it is (al-Qaida), it stands to reason that their entire operation is as sophisticated as their method for choosing locations, human targets and escape routes.

It seems highly likely that they would have established an operational security procedure (rigidly scheduled contacts, passwords, codewords, conversational tells, etc.) which would ensure the survival of the rest of their team.

Conversely, it isn't likely a team like this is going to make a whole lot of rookie mistakes.

I doubt they'd give a second thought to anyone that didn't follow those procedures. We already know that anyone and everyone's expendable to them.

If some of the snipers have been caught, I'm more of a mind to believe that their identities would be hidden to prevent the public from assigning blame for their being here in the first place. Especially with an election right around the corner.

10 posted on 10/18/2002 4:24:57 AM PDT by 4Freedom
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To: Congressman Billybob
"Shouldn't the authorities be urging that everyone that has a right to carry a gun in the D.C. area, to be armed at all times?"

Yes. I'm not sure what the requirements are in D.C. for someone to have that "right" (unfortunately, political connections come immediately to mind), but if some already have that "right", we should be using them.

11 posted on 10/18/2002 4:47:24 AM PDT by 4Freedom
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To: kattracks
"...may be charged with perjury or filing a false statement, authorities said."

What do they mean "maybe"? It's about time that twisted POS's like this do some serious jailtime to atone for the damage to society they cause. Maybe that'll deter other pieces of attention-craving-garbage from pulling another goose chase like this. If these losers really need attention, maybe a public flogging would do the trick.

12 posted on 10/18/2002 5:39:33 AM PDT by guitfiddlist
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To: kattracks
LIE-WITNESS LEADS COPS ASTRAY

By telling them what has already been reported, both by the cops and others.
13 posted on 10/18/2002 5:44:00 AM PDT by aruanan
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To: Congressman Billybob
Like you I am afraid that police will not stop the killers using typical law enforcement tactics. It will take thinking outside the box and using citizens to defend our own communities. I believe the entire nation needs to prepare for this type of sniper attack since it has been so successful and the authorities have been foiled.

I think the best way to confront this attack is to prevent the killers from escaping the scene and that will take using instant communication with all drivers in an area. I think we should reactivate the cold war era civil defense horn alarm systems that can be instantly sounded and drivers are alerted to tune to a civil defense radio frequency and listen for instructions. I believe these horns were sounded from fire stations throughout the city and could be heard everywhere. Drivers could be told to stop in place (like the air stop on 9-11). Police on motorcycles could then go after those who continue moving or investigate stopped vehicles.

14 posted on 10/18/2002 5:46:39 AM PDT by politeia
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To: kattracks
Why is the identity of this liar being kept secret?
15 posted on 10/18/2002 5:47:57 AM PDT by per loin
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To: 4Freedom
The less they tell us, the less they have to explain about who these snipers might be and how they came to be here in the first place.

Tenet (CIA Director) in open session yesterday: "AQ is coming after us".

Tenet in closed session (I suspect): "They are here and they are shooting at gas stations and shopping areas now. Coming next we can expect...."

Every investigation has stupid "witnesses" who say nonsense. They are almost never publicized. The fact that this clown is given publicity is a strong sign that a disinformation campaign is in progress.

I know it is supposed to be "for our own good" but as Hugh Sprunt used to ask, and as the movie "Enemy of the State" also asked:

Who Watches The Watchers?

The answer is:

We (Freepers) Do.
16 posted on 10/18/2002 5:51:25 AM PDT by cgbg
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To: cgbg
"I know it is supposed to be 'for our own good'..."

I believe they do things or withhold information now for the global good. The benefit or detriment to the American people is a small part of the 'big picture' our leaders think they see.

17 posted on 10/18/2002 6:31:38 AM PDT by 4Freedom
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To: per loin
Ummm... maybe he lied about his name and address too?
18 posted on 10/18/2002 6:38:59 AM PDT by porte des morts
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To: porte des morts
Apparently his identity is known by at least some of the press. Chung reported that he goes by the name of "Slim" and has a criminal record.
19 posted on 10/18/2002 6:49:03 AM PDT by per loin
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To: per loin
Which is it then? The cops aren't releaseing his identity; or they just gave it to Connie Chung, or she knows him personally?

What more than likely happened is the cops ran the name given to them, got a hit as a guy with a record, went to his address , and its either not the same guy, or the address was phoney.

Which still begs the question; one guy, on the eleventh shooting, turns out to be a liar. So all witnesses prior to this are now discounted?

Something smells big time, on how this whole investigation is being handled.IMHO.

20 posted on 10/18/2002 7:10:15 AM PDT by porte des morts
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To: porte des morts
A nickname such as "Slim" falls a bit short of identity. Nor do I find it likely that the police do not know the liar's identity, as they grilled him long enough to get him to admit he was lying, and are making noises about possibly prosecuting him.

But I agree about the big time smell emanating from this whole investigation. The liar's story about the shooter being a white male in a blue sweater was widely reported, but the revelation that his story was false carries no mention of which racial identity was a lie, although other details of his lie are given. (color and tail light of van, AK 74, location of shooter).

21 posted on 10/18/2002 7:26:06 AM PDT by per loin
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To: kattracks
But what happened to the "witness" whose name is Robert Young, I believe, who said he saw a van pull into his lane in the parking lot, with an agitated-looking driver and that he "got a good look at him." What's happened with this witness? I've not heard one word of him being discredited. Did I miss something?
22 posted on 10/18/2002 7:34:54 AM PDT by Mean Maryjean
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To: Mean Maryjean
No you have not missed anything. From the start there has been enough intentional mis-direction going on to qualify for a magic act.(someone wants Mr.Young to fade from your memory)
23 posted on 10/18/2002 7:52:57 AM PDT by porte des morts
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To: 4Freedom; Alberta's Child
They are in guantanimo or another even MORE restrictive location being "interrogated"... I would bet on it if there was a way to verify it.

no public trial, no public hearing, no notification, no protesting towel heads threatening the public at courthouses, no "inspiration" or "triggering" for other cells to react to. tribunal trial, summary execution, NO bodies. a virtual "black hole" anomally.

we tried the public arrest and trial scenario, with the last two cells we picked up... and the delays and public "arousal" factors are too high.

If the shootings of this unique nature dry up in the area... it's because they have been whisked away by the pros... and it is over. NOT even cheif Moosetaffa would be told at first. Maybe a token arrest or two to cover the action, but the perps, I suspect are gone.
24 posted on 10/18/2002 11:22:08 AM PDT by Robert_Paulson2
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To: 4Freedom
yeah, the last group of terrorists they arrested were members of the party of terrorists... the democrats.

They don't like to hear that said... but it is true. The terrorists all have multiple ids, ssn's and such... and arresting one islamikazi, stops four or more democrats from voting... because they vote more than once.

"every time you vote for a democrat... another terrorist sniper shoots an innocent american..."
25 posted on 10/18/2002 11:27:11 AM PDT by Robert_Paulson2
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To: Robert_Paulson2
Thanks for the info -- and thanks for acknowledging my early observations!

I want everyone to understand that I have absolutely no access to inside information here -- If what I've said turns out to be true, then it was simply a matter of deducing it on my own. I'd also add that if this turns out the way I think it did, then the U.S. government probably closed this up as well as anyone could have imagined.

26 posted on 10/18/2002 11:28:58 AM PDT by Alberta's Child
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To: kattracks
This makes the report of the bloodhounds tracking a scent for four miles a little more interesting.
27 posted on 10/18/2002 11:50:23 AM PDT by ItisaReligionofPeace
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To: Robert_Paulson2
This approach wouldn't go over too well with the people who are living in fear. Plus, there are too many leaks to make this plausible.
28 posted on 10/18/2002 11:51:20 AM PDT by ItisaReligionofPeace
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To: Robert_Paulson2
LOL! You've got it all figured out bucko.
29 posted on 10/18/2002 11:54:07 AM PDT by ItisaReligionofPeace
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To: Robert_Paulson2
I've been thinking the same thing for quite some time, posted it here: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/770682/posts


"Unless there are more shootings, my guess is, they caught 2 al Qaeda terrorists and are now torturing them for more info (good). But because of PC BS!!!!!! they will never tell us and all of this will go away just like anthrax. (bad)"
30 posted on 10/18/2002 12:04:50 PM PDT by thedugal
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To: Robert_Paulson2
"If the shootings of this unique nature dry up in the area...it is because they have been whisked away by the pros...and it is over.

If these shootings have stopped, it's more likely these snipers have whisked themselves over the border into Mexico and are relaxing by the beach in Acapulco, while they plan their next attack on disarmed America.

They've made our authorities look like inept, incompetent, helpless fools. They've demonstrated their ability to kill any one us anywhere and LE's inability to stop them.

We're lambs waiting to be slaughtered.

Our borders are wide open, the State Dept. grants visas to anyone, port security is a joke and the Coast Guard is being overwhelmed.

If believing in the existance of "pros" capable of stopping these shooters helps you cope, that's fine with me.

The reality of it probably is these guys just stopped and may be standing behind us in line at Starbuck's or McDonald's today. They may be bringing you your order or giving you your change.

The way things are in America today, we may never know.

31 posted on 10/18/2002 12:22:15 PM PDT by 4Freedom
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To: Alberta's Child
I'll give you an A for imagination.

I'll also give you an A+++ for wishful thinking.

Sorry, but IMHO that's all your scenario is.

These guys stopped themselves.

They'll start up again once the heat is off and the government can't justify spending millions of dollars a day for Predator Drones and thousands of extra law enforcment officers and emergency resources.

They'll attack the Beltway or move on to another part of the country. Their choice entirely.

They're laughing at us. They're mocking our efforts to catch them. They can enter and leave our country at will.

32 posted on 10/18/2002 2:44:03 PM PDT by 4Freedom
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To: 4Freedom
These guys stopped themselves. They'll start up again once the heat is off and the government can't justify spending millions of dollars a day for Predator Drones and thousands of extra law enforcment officers and emergency resources.

Like the ones who were mailing those anthrax letters, right?

As I've said before, there's no way in hell they would have made that information about the military aircraft public unless they knew the perps were out of commission.

33 posted on 10/18/2002 3:04:29 PM PDT by Alberta's Child
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To: Alberta's Child
I missed your discussion of the Pentagon's mentioning the Predator Drones and your deduction that that announcement was some kind of coded message that the snipers had been caught.

I can understand that it would be hard for people to deal with the stress of the knowledge that the snipers are still out there and that they're anywhere in the country or the world they want to be.

It's also hard for people to deal with the price we're all going to pay for our leaders callous disregard for our borders, sovereignty and national security.

These snipers might be the same people that mailed the anthrax. Maybe they just ran out or they didn't like working with it, too dangerous. Maybe their plan is to implement each attack mentioned on that al-Qaida training video for only a short period of time in order to avoid capture.

Unless you have a good reason to believe the snipers have been captured, I'll just have to chalk your conjecture up to your having a very healthy self-defense mechanism.

There's nothing wrong with that as long as you don't let your guard down.

34 posted on 10/18/2002 3:46:45 PM PDT by 4Freedom
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To: 4Freedom
Unless you have a good reason to believe the snipers have been captured, I'll just have to chalk your conjecture up to your having a very healthy self-defense mechanism.

The issue isn't whether I've got a good reason or not -- it's that my thinking was rational. I stated as early as yesterday that I was quite certain the perps would not be heard from again (at least in terms of sniper attacks), and every day that passes without an incident reaffirms this. It is also important to note that I did not post any such statements after the 3rd sniper attack, the 5th, or the 10th. I posted them after the 11th, and for the reasons that I cited.

There's nothing wrong with that as long as you don't let your guard down.

I have no intention of letting my guard down, whatever that might mean. But I also will not allow myself to be consumed by anxiety as I go through my daily life. I have no intention of being the poor bastard who never smoked or drank, ate only "healthy" foods, and kept himself in top physical shape, only to get run over by a car while out jogging on his 40th birthday.

A good way to test my theory would be to see what is happening at the homes of various FBI, ATF, and other police brass. If their families are acting as if there is no imminent danger, then I think it is safe to say that things are pretty much back to normal.

35 posted on 10/18/2002 4:05:50 PM PDT by Alberta's Child
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To: Alberta's Child
"A good way to test my theory would be to see what is happening at the homes of the various FBI, ATF and other Police Brass."

Or, we could ask the magic 8-ball that question. You know, the one that you flip over to reveal the answer?

I recommend you continue to walk in zig-zag patterns out in shopping center parking lots until these guys are caught. Just remember serpentine, serpentine, serpentine and duck and weave, duck and weave, duck and weave.

These guys will be back.

36 posted on 10/18/2002 5:39:08 PM PDT by 4Freedom
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