Irish Travellers: Media coverage racist, unresearched

South Bend Tribune ^ | October 7, 2002 | Sheila Flynn

[dasboot]

"Blackstone's Commentaries" Vol IV Pg. 165, "Public Wrongs": 4-Outlandish persons calling themselves Egyptians or Gypsies, are another object of the severity of some of our unrepealed statutes. These are a strange kind of commonwealth among themselves of wandering imposters and jugglers, wo made their first appearance in Germany about the beginning of the sixteenth century, and have since spread themselves all over Europe. Munster, it is true, who is followed and relied upon by Spelman, fixes the time of their first appearance to the year 1417; but, as he owns, that the first whom he ever saw were in 1524, it is probably an error of the press for 1517: especially as other historians inform us, that when the sultan Selim conquered Egypt, in the year 1517, several of the natives refused to submit to the Turkish yoke; but, being at length subdued and banished, they agreed to disperse in small parties al over the world, where their supposed skill in the black art gave them an universal reception, in that age of superstition and credulity. In the compass of a very few years they gained such a number of idle proselytes (who imitated their language and complexion, and betook themselves to the same arts of chiromancy, begging, and pilfering) that they became troublesome and even formidable to most of the states of Europe. Hence they were expelled from France in the year 1560, and from Spain in 1591. And the government in England took the alarm much earlier: for in 1530, they are described by the statute 22 Hen. VIII c. 10 as "outlandish people, calling themselves Egyptians, using no craft or feat of merchandize, who have come into this realm and gone from shire to shire and place to place in great company, and used great, subtil, and crafty means to deceive the people; bearing them in hand, that they by palmistry could tell men's and women's fortunes; and so many times by craft and subtilty have deceived the people from their money, and also have committed many heinous felonies and robberies." Wherefor they are directed to avoid the realm, and not return under pain of imprisonment, and forfeiture of their goods and chattels; and upon their trials for any felony which they may have committed, they shall not be entitled to a trial by jury de medietate linguae. ........

As you can read, race has nothing to do with it.

[GovernmentShrinker]

Reports of home repair scams are sensationalized, Otway says, adding that as in any culture, only a small minority of Irish Travellers are con artists.

What a crock! The only reason these people keep "travelling" is that they are scammers and wouldn't get any repeat business if they stayed in one place. Legitimate home repair professionals have no trouble making a living in one area -- in fact they are in such short supply that it's hard to get them to do any work for you unless you offer to pay through nose and/or have a huge job for them. I've been begging my favorite carpenter, who's VERY Irish, to come and do $3-4000 worth of work on my home for months, and he's just too busy with other bigger jobs.

[Bohemund]

Racism my foot. Irish Travelers are not "gypsies" in the originally-from-India sense. They are as Irish as Paddy's pig.

[dasboot]

Goodrich makes repeated reference to 'the Gypsys race'.

But, as y'all can see from Blackstone, other races took up the culture by exposure to it.

It's the culture I can't get with.

[FITZ]

You have to be like Bill Clinton and have Irish ancestors who were on the road so much they never got baptised.

I can see how being compared with Bill Clinton could get them upset ---but I wonder if he and the Kennedys are descended from this culture.

[Hitlerys uterus]

Culturist is much more apropriate to what we are seeing in this case. Yes the nazis were a pox on humanity. But not all germans were nazis or even sympathetic. Certainly the irish and the brits have been known to lift a few in toasting the queens good health. But not all. Clearly the travellers have within their group a rather seedy element. But to tar the entire group, any group, for the actions of some of their members is beneith americans in general and FReepers in particular. Excepting of course the french.

[Jeff Chandler]

You seem to have some knowledge of this group, so I thought I'd give you a bump.

[FITZ]

Clearly the travellers have within their group a rather seedy element. But to tar the entire group, any group, for the actions of some of their members

What happens if an Irish Traveller gets a decent job, settles down, learns proper English, and doesn't live that lifestyle? Wouldn't they just then be regular Irish ethnicity and no longer would be Irish Travelers? Aren't the Irish Travelers a group of ethnic Irish who travel around scamming people and getting their wealth in illegal or at least shady ways? It seems like a criminal culture to me.

[fqued]

Notably your quoted account leaves out the way Western Europe treated the Roma:

"...countries enacted appalling laws against the Roma. In England, a law enacted during the reign of Elizabeth I and not repealed until 1783, made it illegal merely to be Romani--a Rom could be put to death for having been born of Romani parents. In the Germanies, from about 1500, Roma could be killed with impunity. the Emperor Karl VI, in 1721, proclaimed death to any Rom and mutilation for any Romani woman. In Switzerland, among other places, Romani persons were legally hunted as game, and captured Roma were released for this purpose." etc. etc. etc.
The Particular Problems of (the) Roma. --Fred Bertram (footnotes citing references were left out in this quote)

There are two sides, and Western Europe has treated the Roma appallingly for five centuries. I stand by my statement: The Roma are the most persecuted people by Western Europe, and that includes persecution of the Jews.

[Hitlerys uterus]

"Aren't the Irish Travelers a group of ethnic Irish who travel around scamming people and getting their wealth in illegal or at least shady ways?"

Every last one of them? I doubt it. The point I'm trying to raise is that some, in fact many of the things being said here about travellers have been used throughout history to demonize whatever group was currently slated for persecution and prejudice. There is a very ugly tenor to alot of the commentary floating around this case here at FR. It's more than a little disheartening. I like to think I'm as conservative as the next guy here, But the media generated hysteria over this case seems IMO to be getting the better of some folks here who aught to know better. I can't help but wonder what kind of laughs the DU crowd is having making jokes about those bloodthirsty republicans over at FR.

[FITZ]

If there are some Irish Travellers who are honest, hard-working and skilled then there would be people besides themselves coming out and saying that I would think but you only hear of the scams they pull. They compare themselves with the Amish which seems very far-fetched but I think an Amish who quits living that lifestyle becomes someone of German descent but isn't really Amish anymore. Culture is all just a choice ultimately ---the Irish Travellers live that way because they choose to, it's not race so they should leave their racism accusations out of it.

[The_Media_never_lie]

"If you arrest a Traveller and hold him for trial, his family has real hardship,"

That's right, he cannot fleece anyone while he's in jail, therefore his family will suffer.

[ALS]

whutta load o' blarneyfied crock..... just when I thought I had hugged all the trees and whales, now I find out I gotta hug my Winnebago too.

[FITZ]

Many Travellers acquire long rap sheets because, after being falsely accused of crimes or faced with overblown charges, they post bail and leave, Otway explains.

If this is the best defense for their sub-culture they can come up with ---playing some kind of martyr card --then they sound like they're a pretty worthless group but that has nothing to do with them being of the white or Caucasian race.

[El Gato]

My point was that just as the group shouldn't be denigrated for the actions of the few, the few should not be defended by the many, just because they are a member of the group.

[dasboot]

Actually, the remainder of Mr Blackston's commentary--omitted for brevity's sake--discusses the laws and oppressions you cite; and he expresses relief that they are no longer (in 1765?) in force, repealed, or largely ignored.

There is no disagreement from me that the persecutions of Gypsies were over the top.

My point was, in citing these documents, to show that the Roma as a race were not the object of persecution; it was rather any individual or clan that were practicing the 'arts', regardless of ethnicity. (refer to bold in Blackstone)

[fqued]

But, indeed, the Roma, were, and are, persecuted AS A RACE. This persecution did not stop in the 18th century. (by the way, where in Blackstone are you citing? I am fairly well versed in Blackstone, and keep Book I of his commentaries on my bedside table).

Back to Hitler. Although he killed millions of Jews, his first target was the Roma, and he killed 80% of those in the lands he controlled.

In the Bosnian calamities of recent times, the Roma bore the brunt (from all sides), and hidden in the various terms used for the dead are hundreds of thousands Roma killed.

Roma, AS A RACE, continue to be persecuted in many nations. Canada and Hungary seem at this point to have the most enlightened attitude and legal systems re the Roma.

[dasboot]

OK.

[dasboot]

That'f Blackstone'f Commentarief, Bk IV pg 165

Book I if great. Juft wreckf my reading fkillf a little.

Look, I have no problem with anybody who is or wants to call himself a Gypsy. It is the thief I despise. In my mind, Gypsy is a term used by various races to denote a certain larcenous lifestyle. This is the common understanding of the term in my profession. (LEO)

If you are telling me that there are those who call themselves Gypsies who do not entertain the thieving culture, then I stand enlightened.

[ImphClinton]

I really only care about this one couple. They are in fact scammers. She was scaming this store and that is why she got in touble in the first place. She and her husband have five 2000 or newer luxury cars registered to them in several states. Neither her or her husband have any reported income. Neither has had an honest job as far as could be determined.

Her lawyer was unable to give even one job reference for her or her husband (who is wanted in several states one for manslauter).

I saw a documentary years ago on the Irish Travllers and they live in closed communities marrying off their daughters as young 10. At fourteen to sixteen daughters are considered old maids.