Yellowstone Hot Springs Burn Suit Going Forward (stupid kids alert)

TheDenverChannel.com ^ | 8/30/02 | AP

[scab4faa]

SALT LAKE CITY -- A Wyoming federal judge has refused to dismiss a lawsuit brought by a Utah teenager who was severely burned when he and two others jumped into a thermal pool in Yellowstone National Park.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Thomas Roberts had asked the U.S. District Court in Cheyenne to reject Lance Buchi's (pictured, above) complaint, which alleges that the federal government failed to adequately warn of dangers posed by thermal pools in the park.

Roberts had argued that the decision to provide no warning signs in the area of Cavern Springs -- where water temperatures can reach 170 degrees -- was part of a plan to conserve the scenery of the park.

U.S. District Judge William Downes said in a 14-page ruling Wednesday, "The government's argument in this regard is disingenuous in light of the fact that it has posted warning signs and barricades in front of other dangerous thermal features" in Yellowstone.

Buchi, now 20, was working for park concessionaire Amfac Parks and Resorts when he and two friends -- Tyler Montague of Salt Lake City and Sara Hulphers of Oroville, Wash. -- took a late-night walk near the Firehole River on Aug. 21, 2000.

The suit says they attempted to jump what they thought was a "thin ribbon of water," but which actually was a small band of vegetation growing beside Cavern Springs.

They landed in the springs and Hulphers was fatally burned. Montague and Buchi suffered second- and third-degree burns over most of their bodies.

Downes rejected Roberts' argument that the government was shielded from liability by the Wyoming Recreational Use Act. He said the act applies to those who enter the park for recreational purposes, and did not apply to Buchi, who was a contract worker.

Buchi's suit seeks unspecified damages for his permanent disfigurement and medical expenses, which he claims have exceeded $1 million. His is the only suit filed in connection with the accident.

Lissa Buchi, Lance's mother, declined to comment on the ruling, as did Roberts and the two lawyers representing Buchi.

[scab4faa]

Well at least one of them should get the darwin award. My question is why is this going anywhere at all. I went to Yellowstone last year and there are signs everywhere telling the danger of the hot springs and thermal activity there. What are they supposed to do put a sign beside every pool? These kids were stupid and should just deal with the fact that they played with "fire" and got burned.. case closed.

[Bowana]

HMMM,

They jumped into a THERMAL POOL near FIREHOLE RIVER!

OK then, Mr Darwin?

[AF68]

People like Lance Buchi are the reason why there are "Do Not Eat" warnings on the little packets of silica gel drying agent found in shipping boxes for electronic equipment.

[stevem]

I wonder if the snap shot of that moron represents an example of what you look like AFTER you jump into one of these springs? They should post that picture with the warnings. That might scare everyone completely out of Yellostone.

Maybe these dim bulbs couldn't read. They should be suing their schools.

This William Downes creature ought to be fired from the bench and forced to go find a real job somewhere.

[xrp]

So what happens if he jumps off a bridge to his death somewhere? Is government responsible for putting up signs that read "WARNING: Gravity makes you fall down. You might die."

[xrp]

Oh yeah...*nice* dreadlocks, buddy.

[BluH2o]

National and State parks make every reasonable effort to warn visitors of potential dangers. Short of posting warnings on every other tree and building a fence around every possible hazard, park managers have to assume visitors will assume some personal responsibility for their safety and well being. Then of course you will always have some drunk, scatter brained teenager, who will manage to find a way to kill themselves in spite of any warning. Then you have a trial lawyer type lurking in the background ready to pounce ... especially if the potential defendent in a wrongful death or injury suit has deep pockets.

[csvset]

Oh yeah...*nice* dreadlocks, buddy.

Lol, my thoughts exactly. What a dumbass, this kid was either high, drunk, or just plain stupid, case dismissed, next!

[Yeti]

These kids were stupid and should just deal with the fact that they played with "fire" and got burned.. case closed.

Much as I dislike seeing people stick others with the consequences of their own actions, I think we need to be a bit more circumspect ...

1. These guys were park employees. Any construction company or restaurant or railroad that had employees injured or killed on the jobsite would certainly have to pay dearly whether it was the company's fault or not. The company's contribution, employee's state of mind, circumstances, etc... would only come into play in deciding to how much to add to the damages.
2. A restaurant has 3 vats of hot oil, clearly labelled. It has 2 vats of cool oil unlabelled. It has one vat of hot oil unlabelled. An employee is horribly burned when he thrusts his arm into the unlabelled vat of hot oil to grab a wristwatch that slipped from his wrist. Darwin award? Maybe. Company liable? Certainly.
3. If someone comes to your house and slips on an oil stain on your driveway, you must pay. Why shouldn't the owners of this park?
4. If it were truly wilderness, it would be one thing, but people are getting rich off of this place, and the government is taking money to allow you to look at it. Why should they get special exemtion from all of the common liability and employment laws in western civilization?

One kid is dead on the jobsite and at least one other is horribly disfigured for life. You don't think the wealthy employer and the wealthy property owner should foot the bill, at least for the years of medical procedure require to make the disfigured one look halfway normal again? How employable is this kid gonna be after his injury on the jobsite?

Come on! Any construction worker would get compensation, even if he tripped on his own non-regulation, improperly-tied shoe laces! Even if he took a dare to touch his tongue to a high-voltage terminal!

If you think the laws are wrong, that's one thing. But the laws being what they are, it is appropriate that this lawsuit should go forward.

[scab4faa]

First off these kids weren't injuried on the job-site (for that matter, only one of them even worked for the park.) They were out for a late night stroll. If I work for a "construction company" and late one night I decide to take a couple of friends of mine for a stroll through the site and we get injuried, it's the construction companies fault? No. Second there are signs all over the park warning of "thermal and hot spring activity". The signs also warm the stay on paths because springs and thermal activity can be hard to spot. I know because I just visited Yellowstone and the firehole river just about a year ago.

If you think the laws are wrong, that's one thing. But the laws being what they are, it is appropriate that this lawsuit should go forward.

no, you are wrong.

Come on! Any construction worker would get compensation, even if he tripped on his own non-regulation, improperly-tied shoe laces! Even if he took a dare to touch his tongue to a high-voltage terminal!

This is the best comment of the posting, I hardley think that after an investigation into the "accident" when they found how that lock out procedures and osha regulations weren't followed that said "worker" would get anything.

this lawsuit is just proving to the next generation and American everywhere if you can find a loophole, then sue.. Very sad indeed.

[itsnevertoolate]

These kids were not on the job although they worked for a park concessioner. All concessioner employees are warned of the danger of thermal areas and are especially warned against "hot-potting" (the practice of soaking in a relatively cool thermal feature). They were certainly aware of the dangers.

On their day off, the three were swimming in the Firehole River, a legal practice, although the Park Service does discourage it. They were in an area of the river where run-off from thermal features warms the water. The kids stayed out after dark in a dangerous thermal area and did not carry flashlights. They were fully responsible for their actions.

[oc-flyfish]

What the heck. I was there in the 80's and signs were all over the place about it being dangerous. I remember (and still to this day) being terrified of walking off the path into one of those.

What a ding dong!

[Voltage]

WARNING! WARNING! If you walk headlong into a tree you could be injured.

[monkey]

I was there in the 80's and signs were all over the place

Well, that's too many signs. They become backdrop, and no one pays attention, like warnings that you could lose in the stock market.

There is an optimal number of signs, and if Yellowstone can't mathematically prove that they had the right number, then we should all pay. It's not about culpability, it's about ending the tyranny of nature.

[scab4faa]

I can only guess that thier parents never tought them that the world is a dangerous place and when you grow up you have to look out for yourself because mommy and daddy won't be around but then again some people are just ignorant (or should I say in this case just plain stupid!)

[Eagle Eye]

These guys were park employees. Any construction company or restaurant or railroad that had employees injured or killed on the jobsite would certainly have to pay dearly whether it was the company's fault or not.

These morons were on their own time and this event, as far as I can tell, is NOT in a jobsite, and is NOT work related. The land owners have no obligation to warn and label every dangerous part of the Great Outdoors to prevent liability. What next? Suing the to government for sunburn?

Quit encouraging people to pee in the gene pool.

[scab4faa]

WARNING! WARNING! If you walk headlong into a tree you could be injured

I wonder how much I could get from the logging industry for not protecting me from that tree?

[itsnevertoolate]

Mr. Buchi is a "revolutionary" and it is not surprising that he brought this suit. He probably see himself as a warrior against the system. He is the webmaster for the "Rage Against the Machine" website Rage Against the Machine .

His personal website lance buchi: the ow in now was full of radical thought pieces at one time, but they have been removed, probably at the insistance of his lawyers. The Wayback Machine captured some of it:

News

Ancient Lands

Salt Lake

He also had a piece published in the webzine Human Beams:

School Massacres

[TroutStalker]

I have fished numerous times on the Firehole River, and one needs to be very vigilant where to step, both in the river and on the riverbank. The hotspots are all over the place. It needs special care navigating after dark.

They sound like the kind who would try to ride the local bison, too. These guys were employees there, and should have been familiar with the hazards in the area. They must have been terminally stupid or intoxicated to have been wandering around at night in thermal areas that they were not familiar with. Even if there were signs there, they would have never seen them at night, unless they were illuminated. Can you imagine what Yellowstone would look like if every thermal had an illuminated sign on it at night? So much for the incredible night skies there.

I think it is telling that this idiot is the only one filing suit, and the other two parties are not. Too bad he wasn't the Darwin Award recipient.

[Newbomb Turk]

The same people who would sue over this are the ones who grew up in the 60s singing the song SIGNS. (signs signs everywhere signs)

[csvset]

What a find! Yep, imho, this guy's an idiot.

[scab4faa]

Someone should send this to the judge. He complains in his papers of civilication taking over the lands but wants to sue because there weren't enough signs warning of the hazards of mother nature.. Sounds like someone trying to make an easy buck too me.

[bandleader]

Well,at least his chances of"going blind" have been reduced!

[itsnevertoolate]

Here a link to a Billings Gazette article from August 24, 2000, shortly after the incident, that gives details of what actually happened. There was some confusion at first as to whether they deliberately jumped or accidentally fell into the pool. It turns out that it was deliberate, but only because they thought they were jumping over a small stream, since they couldn't see very well in the dark.

Park workers leaped into pool

[itsnevertoolate]

And noting that is was too dark to see, what good would warning signs have done? They wouldn't have been able to see them in the dark anyway.

[scab4faa]

It's funny being a person of at least average intelligence. When I went to Yellowstone, whenever I walked around the park on trails (and a couple of times outside of the trails) I carried a walking stick with me to test the ground for "stability". I personally don't like risking my health and life on "blind faith".

[Utah Girl]

Except in front of this particular thermal pool there were no warning signs. From the article U.S. District Judge William Downes said in a 14-page ruling Wednesday, "The government's argument in this regard is disingenuous in light of the fact that it has posted warning signs and barricades in front of other dangerous thermal features" in Yellowstone.

I wouldn't go jumping in thermal pools in Yellowstone at all, but the kids didn't think they were jumping into one, they thought they were jumping over one, and there were no warning signs around.

[30-06 Springfield]

I have visited Yellowstone once or twice and have great respect for the hot springs. This brings to mind the animal rights activist who was mauled by a bear this past week. Is he going to sue the federal government since the bear is, in theory at least, the owner of the bear?

[Utah Girl]

The kids were used to seeing warning signs around pools that were dangerous. And if I remember correctly, there is a lot of information at Yellostone about the pools that aren't marked also, one doesn't just want to jump into them. Again, though, the kids thought they were jumping over that particular pool in the dark. Not good judgement, and one of them paid with her life.

[Kozak]

Maybe they should put a fence around all the pools. Like the mom of the kid who got killed in Hawaii recently wanted a metal grate over a blowhole. It's for the children you know.....

[itsnevertoolate]

The kids thought they were jumping over a stream because they were out in the DARK without flashlights and could not see that it was really a pool. I have been in Yellowstone to this exact thermal pool. As of last June, you could still see their footprints at the bottom of the pool. I would not go in this area at night even with a flashlight. They were foolish young people who had no respect for the danger of the area they were in, even though they were warned of the danger during their employee orientation and the NPS warns of staying away from thermal features. Putting a sign at every thermal feature in Yellowstone is like putting a sign on every tree along the side the road. These kids knew the danger; they chose to behave in an irresponsible, thoughtless manner.

The NPS does have signs in more highly visited areas, like around Old Faithful and other areas with boardwalks. The area near this pool is frequented only by fishermen, those interested in geysers and thermal features, and, typically, employees of the concessioner who want to go for a swim away from the crowds.

[BigBobber]

The result of this lawsuit is not going to be more signs. It's going to cause the Park Service to close off all parts of the part that have not been made "safe for visitors". There will be stiff fines for anyone caught outside an "authorized" part of the wilderness. Everyone will will crammed into little parking lots full of bus-tour visitors with high heels and Bermuda shorts. And yes, your park fees will go up to pay for this lawsuit.

The greens will use this as a foothold to keep average citizens out of the areas they want only elitists and those with political pull to have access to. I'm not exaggerating. This is happening every day in my part of the west.

The resposible visitor will suffer because of the mistakes made by these idiot kids.

[tophat9000]

Time to put warning labels on Trial Lawyers

WARNING: Frivolous lawsuits may be hazardous to your freedoms

[AndrewSmith]

IDIOT: Any person who jumps into geo-thermally heated ponds at Yellowstone.

[scab4faa]

I'm guessing now on, on each Bison we should make sure a sign is posted on thier backs for all can see:

I not we should sue the park for endangering our lives? Come on, it's a wildlife park with natural hazards why should the park owners be held resonsible for not pointing out every area of a natural hazard? Should there be signs everywhere, Watch out for the snakes, watch out for that rock, Don't trip over that tree branch. Should they have escorts for everyone that enters the park to make sure patrons don't hurt themselves (doing stupid things like walking around hot springs at night without a flashlight)? Does anyone here remember excatly what the warning sign at old faithful says? something about being careful that the grounds around yellowstone may look stable but have dangerous underlying hot spots?

[Movemout]

Too bad they didn't just pass on because of their stupidity and save us the problem of enduring a frivolous lawsuit. This idiot will probably cut his toes off with a lawnmower, spill hot coffee in his lap, and get his ding-dong stuck in a vacuum cleaner before the trial starts.

[Old Professer]

You're right, of course; what would sway me if I were the judge is the fact that the fed lawyer admitted that they intentionally left this area unposted to appease their supreme being, "Mother Nature."

[kayak]

This is a little off topic but I can't resist ......

A lot of people have been buffaloed by Gore, also. Is there a warning sign for that available?

Now I hope that all will get back to the topic at hand ..... which, by the way, you have addressed in a very lucid manner.

[Cleburne]

There are some ten thousand thermal features in Yellowstone, not counting the many hot streams and rivulets that course the thermal basins. It is quite impossible for the Park Service to fence every single one, or install boardwalks in every potentially dangerous area.