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New Army artillery piece that can fire 8 rounds that hit a target simultaneously
"The Website for Defense Industries" ^ | Unknown date

Posted on 05/03/2002 8:41:14 AM PDT by mhking

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To: Mind-numbed Robot
This would have been real cool in WII, Korea, and maybe Vietnam (maybe not) but technology has already made it obsolete. I see why Rumsfield wants to kill it.

Artillery will never be obsolete as long as your adversary has it. At the very least, it's necessary to have it in a counter-battery role to keep the enemies artillery off your back. The Chinese have a passel of gun tubes.

41 posted on 05/03/2002 10:12:15 AM PDT by CarryaBigStick
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To: monday
Yeah but......

As previous posts suggest, this is a fine piece of equipment for Gallipoli, Monte Cassini, the Kasserine Pass, the Bulge, but not the 21st Century. We combine the services so there is no more of the Army this, Air Force that, the Navy whatever and the Marines oops.

We equip our forces to get the most bang for the buck. Me,. I believe that recce and force application at the squad level will be the way of the future. Read Heinleins, "Starship Troopers". Heinlein was a Naval Academy grad.

42 posted on 05/03/2002 10:14:19 AM PDT by Young Werther
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To: Young Werther
Because when the first round lands, everyone it did not hit runs away or takes cover, and survives. Here, all eight rounds arrive at the same time, though of course not on exactly the same spot. Every bad guy in the neighborhood gets his 72 virgins. Imagine if a dozen of these monsters were sharing target data, and all of them fired off their rounds in this simultaneous way. Think 'daisy cutter.'

I trust Rummy's judgement, but I'll be sad if this program gets killed. It is so cool.

43 posted on 05/03/2002 10:17:47 AM PDT by redbaiter
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To: cksharks
11B buys a lot of bomber sorties that can now be delivered with the same accuracy.

You can bring the bomber to within any point on the planet, and once you have air superiority the bomber is invulnerable. With that bomber in the air you have effectively enables a special forces platoon combat air controller to take a potentially limitless supply of 250# to 1000# bombs into combat with him.

This mobile howitzer would be great for defending the Fulda Gap. It would suck in Afganistan or island hopping after Moro cutthroats in the Philipines. Rummy is right. Not needed.

44 posted on 05/03/2002 10:47:50 AM PDT by eno_
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To: redbaiter
The Osprey is cool, too. But if it doesn't work or is a solution looking for a problem... there are better things to spend the money on. We are low on precision bombs and cruise missles. We need to build those in time for the Christmas rush to Bagdad. We don't want Saddam to lack for stocking stuffers, har har!
45 posted on 05/03/2002 10:53:48 AM PDT by eno_
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Comment #46 Removed by Moderator

To: redbaiter
Think 'daisy cutter'
Not even close. 15,000# bombs can be delivered by air. Think of the supply and force-protection issues involved in getting this much artillery to an Afganistan battle. Ooops, the towelheads are on the next mountain range. 15 minutes by helicopter for the grunts, but the guns don't arrive for another two hours - not good!
47 posted on 05/03/2002 10:59:28 AM PDT by eno_
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To: CarryaBigStick
Thanks for your response but the other systems I mentioned - airplanes (manned and unmanned), helocopters, missiles, etc., seem to be quite capable of handling those situations with less logistical difficulty and less vulnerbility.
48 posted on 05/03/2002 11:04:07 AM PDT by Mind-numbed Robot
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To: mhking
A darn fine use of parabolas if you ask me.
49 posted on 05/03/2002 11:14:49 AM PDT by El Sordo
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To: monday
Knew a guy that went to Jamaica a lot. Said that ESPN had to build a new bridge to support their equipment
trucks for a golf tournament, I believe.

So, start exporting golf courses to countries on the hit list. Let ESPN build the bridges. Side benefit is
that there will be more places for Clinton and OJ to hang around outside of the country.

I remember a brilliant Canadian physicist that liked designed big guns and artillery shells (or satellite containers).
He some how managed to get himself blackballed by both the DoD and NASA, so he went to work
for Saddam. Bad move, since the Mossad allegedly took him out in Brussels.
(This was the basis of rumors of Iraq's super gun.)

His artillery shells had something like a 6 mile increase in range with existing guns. DoD wasn't interested. I think the name of
his company was Space Industries, or Space Research. He got shut down for selling to Rhodesia in the mid-70s.

50 posted on 05/03/2002 11:30:07 AM PDT by Calvin Locke
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To: Young Werther
The idea is to achieve greater distance, and greater overpressure radius, as well as total greater overpressure, by laying down multiple smaller airbursts as opposed to one big one. When they say "hitting the same target", don't jump on the media interpreted version of multiple rounds hiting a soldier on the helmet. That was the strategy of artillery in WWI. Modern artillery achieves a greater effectiveness by airburst overhead (assuming it isn't specialized ordnace). The question of need, however, goes with battlefield strategy. The M113 based mobile arty with a 105 was less effective than a crewed weapon, but it provided excellent protection for the soldiers when there is a whole lot of steel in the air. One strategy for anti-artillery fire is to shower them with shrapnel. Up until Korea, and somewhat into Vietnam, this made sense. But with modern anti-mortar and anti-artillery countermeasures, it is possible to know where an enemy emplacement is and return fire as soon as the enemy fires. And if they are there first, well, that's what flyboys are for. Mobile armored artillery remains only in the Marines, for the most part, whose tactics generally aren't designed around having massive logistical support. And this system may offer something for them now as well. But for the Army, I doubt it justifies the price tag. For the price, you can outfit and deploy several 155 batteries indefinitely, along with logistical support.
51 posted on 05/03/2002 11:32:45 AM PDT by Cobra Scott
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To: mhking
I watched a show about the Crusader. Too many people involved in the project so it got way to big. now it back on track to what it was supposed to be. When it says it will hit a target with 8 rounds simutaneously. That means it will cover an area the size of a football field with bomblets. That is great supression fire.
52 posted on 05/03/2002 11:38:10 AM PDT by Iwentsouth
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To: redbaiter
T.O.T. (time on target) is not new. Whether one gun or many gums are employed, it ensures that you get everyone on the way to the crapper. Worked great in WWI but is it needed today?

High tech battlewear which incorporates medical sensors, surroundings sensors, (night vision, FLIR motion detection etc) along with the weapons and ability to call in air strikes for those daisy cutter and fuel air bombs will allow a squad to engage an enemy.

In the first several years of SNL there was an ongoing skit about how history would be changed if...one skit was "If the defenders of the Alamo had had a B-52". This was a joke 25 years ago but today's battlefield may be one in which high tech and precision are more important than mass fire, massed troops and massive effort. Precision application of force.

53 posted on 05/03/2002 12:21:28 PM PDT by Young Werther
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To: Mr. Lucky
How many bidges or roadways in the 3rd world will support a 70 ton vehicle?

Huh?

From the article:

    "United Defense has reduced the weight and size of the Crusader vehicle from 60 tons to 38 to 41 tons..."

54 posted on 05/03/2002 1:53:35 PM PDT by TomB
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To: TomB
Huh?

The article is a puff piece from the contractor. The one proto-type actually built weighs in at about 70 tons, combat ready (an empty vehicle isn't al that useful). The contractor claims, in theory, that the weight could be reduced if only it were awarded a couple zillion more Dollars in R&D.

55 posted on 05/03/2002 2:07:38 PM PDT by Mr. Lucky
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To: Mind-numbed Robot
The chief advantage is that artillery is "on-line" virtually all the time; TACAIR is only available when there are actually aircraft loitering. OTOH, this is all negated if your special forces types are operating beyond the artillery fan.
56 posted on 05/03/2002 2:07:44 PM PDT by Tallguy
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To: Dog Gone;chookter;Future Snake Eater;Tactical Thunder;Psalm 73;
House Authorizers Vote To Bar Crusader Program's Termination
Source: InsideDefense.com
Published: May 1, 2002; Author: Erin Q. Winograd

The House Armed Services Committee voted late tonight to bar termination of the Crusader advanced field artillery system before the completion of the program's next major review in April 2003.

The amendment, offered by Rep. J.C. Watts (R-OK) during the committee's mark-up of the fiscal year 2003 defense authorization bill, is a direct response to reported Defense Department plans to kill the howitzer program. Sources said Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz informed Army Secretary Thomas White yesterday (April 30) that the department intended to cancel Crusader.

Rather than accepting the administration's choice to kill Crusader, the Republican-controlled Armed Service Committee opted to strike back. The amendment to the House version of the fiscal year 2003 authorization bill "directs that there be no change to the Crusader development schedule, funding or procurement requirements, to include termination, until the completion of the Army's Milestone B Analysis of Alternatives." The bill further instructs that the Army secretary present a report on the completed analysis to all congressional defense committees by March 1, 2003. The language states that Congress will respond to the report within 30 days so that the scheduled milestone B review can be completed the following month.

The committee adds that Crusader is necessary to address the range and mobility shortfalls demonstrated during the Gulf War, and lauds the program for being "on schedule and budget." The bill expresses concern that "the transformational warfighting potential of Crusader has not been fully recognized by the Department of Defense and cannot be properly assessed until the Army completes its comprehensive" analysis of alternatives.

Crusader has been criticized repeatedly over the past two and a half years as inappropriate for the 21st century and out of step with the Army's "transformation" to a lighter, more deployable and more versatile force. The howitzer at one time tipped the scales at 55 tons, as did its resupply vehicle. However, in December 1999, the Army requested that developer United Defense LP -- now called United Defense Industries -- redesign the system to reduce its bulk. The result was a howitzer and a tracked resupply vehicle each weighing approximately 40 tons plus a new wheeled resupply vehicle weighing even less.

The Army also decided to limit its Crusader purchase, trimming planned procurement of 1,138 howitzers and resupply vehicles by 50 percent.

Crusader supporters, such as White, argue that U.S. artillery capability lags far behind many other countries, including North Korea and Iraq, members of Bush's so-called "axis of evil." Proponents also dispute the notion that Crusader is not transformational, asserting it will be complementary to the service's Objective Force as well as an integral part of the Counterattack Corps over the next 30 years.

During the Republican presidential primaries, then-candidate George W. Bush singled out Crusader as a system he would target for cancellation. However, several members of Congress, including fellow Republicans such as Watts and Sen. James Inhofe (R-OK), strongly back the program. Sources say Watts and Inhofe were perturbed by the rumors of Crusader's imminent demise. Watts reportedly raised the issue of the howitzer's fate at a morning meeting with the president. Sources say Watts left concerned that Bush is basing his assessment of the program on old information dating back to the system's original design, which is not representative of the internal changes the platform has undergone, they argue.

A press release issued by Watts' office prior to the vote on his amendment noted that, "Those of us who support Crusader and recognize the important role it plays in America's national security believe its critics are using outdated data while making decisions on its future. We hope the decision the administration makes on the Crusader is based on current data. Outdated anecdotes about the size and capability of Crusader have been long since disproved."

While some defense insiders say a few key members of Congress were informed by Wolfowitz that Crusader would be terminated, it appears the majority of legislators were not consulted. One Capitol Hill source said members were outraged that they had not been personally notified.

"One of our grievances was that Wolfowitz assured [certain] members . . . as recently as five days ago 'the program is OK,'" the source said. Wolfowitz even hinted that a new study of precision fires and smart munitions may call for more Crusaders. "That flew in the face of reality yesterday when we got the same news you did," the source stated.

Sources said the Oklahoma congressional delegation requested a meeting with Wolfowitz this afternoon to discuss Crusader. The deputy secretary agreed, then canceled the meeting at the last minute, they stated.

Oklahoma has a stake in Crusader's future. UDI has promised to do a certain portion of the howitzer's construction in Elgin, OK, near Ft. Sill, which is the home of Army field artillery. A congressional source was quick to point out, however, that the program has not yet directly generated any jobs in Oklahoma.

Following passage of his amendment, Watts issued another statement trumpeting the howitzer. "Contrary to various rumors and scenarios, the Crusader program clearly retains the full confidence of the House Armed Services Committee," he stated. "This 'leap-ahead' artillery piece will save soldier's lives in battles in the 21st Century. There can be no question of Congress' commitment to the program."

Crusader likely will find similar support in the Senate. Inhofe, a member of that body's Armed Services Committee, strongly backed the program in a May 1 press release. According to the statement, "Any decision to cancel Crusader now would go completely against the testimony Congress has consistently received on this issue. Without exception, every uniformed officer and enlisted person that testified before Congress on this issue agreed that Crusader was the crown jewel of our Army modernization program." Killing Crusader "would also undermine the integrity of the proper procurement process in which studies to evaluate various alternative technologies are already underway and are not scheduled to be completed before next year," he adds.

Inhofe notes that "several other countries have superior artillery systems in their inventories in terms of rapid fire and range. It makes no sense for us not to proceed with this important modernization. It is un-American to send our troops into battle with inferior equipment."

"The fight for Crusader will continue in Congress," he declares. "It has strong support among both Republicans and Democrats. I plan to work through the authorization and appropriations process to ensure that it remains fully funded."


57 posted on 05/03/2002 2:14:33 PM PDT by Stand Watch Listen
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To: Stand Watch Listen
Well, given Watts's and Inhofe's political interest in bringing home the pork to Oklahoma, I'm not sure we're seeing a truly objective discussion of the merits.
58 posted on 05/03/2002 2:54:34 PM PDT by Dog Gone
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To: Dog Gone
Darn right. What you are seeing here is an article placement on FR that is attached to a lobbying effort. Do Freepers really want a weapon Rumsfeld says is not needed? Are Freepers incapable of adding up what other weapons $11,000,000,000 will buy? Are we going to tell JC Watts he is on the wrong side of this issue?
59 posted on 05/04/2002 3:40:54 AM PDT by eno_
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To: tangofox
*Ping*
60 posted on 05/04/2002 3:47:53 AM PDT by Flyer
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