Routine Traffic Stop Leads to 8-Hour Standoff, Shooting of 69-Year-Old Driver

TBO.com ^ | 3/26/02

[antidisestablishment]

Why didn't you just shoot him?</sarcasm>

I can't believe these incidents where police escalate situations that should be resolved without violence. The last article makes the whole thing sound like a lynching. Sickening!

[wattsmag2]

This guy was a paranoid nutball. Are you people really saying he should have just been allowed to run free after evading a simple traffic stop? Are you saying that this would not arouse suspicion in any normal police officer? Should potential terrorists be free to run away home and then be secure from arrest?

This ain't a game of tag.

[csvset]

Zirakian's problems seemed to be compounded by a head injury he suffered in fall down a flight of stairs ..

Huh. Gen. George Patton survived several falls and it was noted after one of those accidents, he had a abrupt change in personality.

[fnord]

... pleading with the U.S. Army veteran to answer.

ahhh, now I see.

[harpseal]

Okay, here is my take on the matter. The man was driving significantly slower than the speed limit. I have no idea if there was a minimum speed or it was just suspicion of drunk driving that was the reason for the initial stop. The situation escalated. It is a legitimate police function to enforce traffic laws and to stop vehicles where the driver is operating that vehicle in a manner that is often associated with driving while impaired. That stop is clearly within bounds. Now what happened after may or may not justify the police escalation I do not yet have enough info to form an opinion in this case.

This guy does have a mental history and his neighbor's reactions say a lot about that. On this one I have a lot of questions about what happened exactly and those questions are making me lean towards believing the police in this instance were on the right side of the line.

Stay well - Stay safe - Stay armed - Yorktown

[Poohbah]

It is a legitimate police function to enforce traffic laws and to stop vehicles where the driver is operating that vehicle in a manner that is often associated with driving while impaired.

Don't tell that to the the cheerleaders for this guy. They think that if a cop stops them for a traffic violation, they're being oppressed by "The Man."

This guy does have a mental history and his neighbor's reactions say a lot about that. On this one I have a lot of questions about what happened exactly and those questions are making me lean towards believing the police in this instance were on the right side of the line.

The problem is that (a) there is no reasoning with a mentally ill person and (b) very few people understand this because they've been blessed to not have to deal with real mental illness.

Again: thank you, liberals, for letting mentally ill people run around loose. How compassionate of you.

Stay well - Stay safe - Stay armed - Yorktown

You stay well, safe & armed, too, ya hear?

[Cap'n Crunch]

My point is, the police shouldnt have to be dealing with people who ought to be in a mental institution. It's a bad combination. Mental patients need mental help, not cops to come and enforce the law. I'm not a psychiatrist, psychologist or social worker. Sometimes it is not until after the fact that we find out someone who is now dead, shot by the police, had mental problems.

In my opinion our PC society wants everybody to be loved and to be treated as equals. Unfortunately, it don't work. Then, when things go wrong, and people who ought to be treating these people leave it up to the cops, they blame the cops.

It's the same with the school system. Teachers and principals used to enforce discipline. Now there are cops in the schools and the cops enforce the discipline. The responsibility should be with the school system, not the police dept.

Regarding shooting the guy, sometimes he gets violent, if he continues to be a menace to the society and neighborhood where he lives, he may end up getting shot, either by a cop or a neighbor who gets tired of his games.

Then we can post it on FR and discuss it all again.

Personally, if you've read some of the police reports and been to some of the calls I've been on, its a wonder more people with mental problems arent shot by the police.

[NC_Libertarian]

If it couldn't have ended peacefully, then I wish it had ended more like this.

[Cap'n Crunch]

I agree, there isn't enough information to make a decision regarding the shooting.

I'd like to see these people who blame the police come and show us how it's done.

I'd invite them to come ride along with me. Whenever I have to battle some out of control mental I could say "Cut: OK stunt double, time for the stand in." "Go get 'em tiger"

It would be amusing to see how much talking they do with one of our mentally challenged citizens attached to their necks. Or sticking a knife in their bellies.

Now it's time for me to go work out, Cap'n Crunch still has 9 more years to work the road, and I intend on making it.

Like they say on the street: "don't hate the play'a, hate the game"

Peace

[max61]

Vincent Zirakian, who had a history of mental illness,...

In other words he was a Libertarian Party member.

More likely a lifelong Republican.

---max

[Joe Hadenuf]

"Nothing worked," Johnson said.

Bull sh*t!

[Travis McGee]

Another factor, tell me what you think.

I have heard from EMTs and cops about their maddening frustration with dealing with the same bunch of retarded lunatics, often "homeless", over and over and over and over.

EMTs and cops get the call: "men fighting". They arrive at the alley. The filth encrusted dirtbag named "Old Joe" has fallen off a ladder and vomited Wild Irish Rose all over himself and has a laceration on his forehead. It's the 39th time this year.

An ambulance is called, which costs the county $899 for the ride to the County General ER, where he will be X-rayed, CAT scanned, and patched up at a cost to the county of $6,367.

"Old Joe" will then walk out of the ER a few hours later and panhandle for enough money to buy his next bottle of Wild Irish Rose.

This will happen again Friday, and next Sunday, and so on ad infinitum.

Finally, "Old Joe" in a fit of DTs picks up a stick and flails it at the cops, and finally, they shoot him.

At least that seems to be how it works in San Diego.

[Cap'n Crunch]

Yeah, I know Old Joe, he stumbled out into traffic when he was drunk, got hit by a car, survived and sued the driver, getting 50k out of the deal and blowing it all in a few months on drunken parties for him and his buddies. One day while he was drunk he fell over and fractured his skull and died. He had over 400 arrests in his lifetime. The judge once bought him a one way ticket to Puerto Rico AND HE CAME BACK. LOL

We used to take bets on what winter another Old Joe would die because he used to pass out drunk in streets and in snow banks. He saw a drug deal and murder he wasnt supposed to see and ended up getting murdered himself.

Old Joe likes to set fires too. Takes off all his clothes and sets them on fire in business doorsteps, or walks down the street caked in diarrhea. Pulls a knife on his intake worker and sets off to find a 3 year old girl to rape. That Old Joe, he's quite a clown, once he had some type of disease that enlarged his testicles to the size of basketballs so he wandered into the bank to show all the female bank tellers. When we grabbed him Old Joe had a loaded .38 in his waistband.

The business owners like it when they find Old Joe in their doorway in the morning when they open up, either urinating, deficating or having sex with his AIDS infested girlfriend Broadway Mary.

Old Joe, he sure is a hoot. I remember a time he sucker punched and almost killed one of our sergeants. Or when he stabbed one of the guys about a month ago. Can't remember how many fights I've had with Old Joe. He's pulled a few knives and razor blades on me too.

[Travis McGee]

Gee Cap'n, if you have such a dim view of your "clients" perhaps you should quit social work, I mean law enforcement?

< /sarcasm >

[Fred Mertz]

"He's almost always been extremely paranoid," Watts said. "He thinks the rest of the world is against him. ..."

Sounds like he was right on target. The police had no reason to pull a mini-Waco on him!

[antidisestablishment]

I agree. It is the same thing I say about using soldiers for peacemakers--it creates an impossible situation because it is in direct contradiction of their training.

However, in this case, it seems the cops forced the issue and the old man was killed for no reason. Someone with some phsych training should have been there. The cops should have been there for backup only.

[Cap'n Crunch]

I gave up my dream to be a brain surgeon after I narrowly graduated from the 6th grade. Even with all the bad, not quite another job like this one.

"It's not just a job, it's an adventure." (bet that sounds familiar) LOL

[Cap'n Crunch]

In this particular case, I agree with Mr. Harpseal, there is just not enough facts for me to make a decision either way. Generally though, when someone starts shooting, self preservation has a way of taking over.

[Travis McGee]

If I ever get past 6th grade I'm going to be a brain surgeon, an astronaut, an Army general, or a double-nought spy.

[SuperLuminal]

Wow! Just think of the promotions and awards that would have been possible if he had been holding an infant in his arms at the time.