Posted on 03/13/2022 8:46:58 AM PDT by ChicagoConservative27
I think you already have WWIII, just as WWII started, by Hitler, before most admitted it.
What vital national interest do we have in Ukraine? They are not a NATO member. In any case, Putin is not trying to take over all of Ukraine. His terms are that the two eastern provinces go, Ukraine remains neutral and the Nazis embedded in the Ukrainian military have to go. That's it. He's not attempting to gobble up all of Ukraine and reconstruct the Soviet Union. There is nothing in Russia's terms that should not be agreed to by the Ukrainians and there's certainly nothing that is a threat to NATO in that.
“And why doesn’t he say, “I am introducing a Declaration of War against Russia”?”
Not true. We did not declare war on the Soviet Union when we intervened on behave of Afghanistan against the Soviet occupation there, and our aid was limited to the Afghan theater of operations, we did not take that assistance to the territory of the Soviet Union. The same can be true with regard to ANY aid we give Ukraine, inside Ukraine.
Did we go to war against China and the Soviet Union over their aid to Vietnam???
If countries would just let Ukraines people just be on their own and stop meddling in their corruption - they might have peace. Far too many outsiders/insiders scamming the country for what they can get and control.....and that won’t stop no matter how much they can re-build after this.
“because doing so would involve us in the war”
We are involved and we have admitted we are involved in aiding Ukraine; that’s already a fact.
“They know nothing about provocations which can easily lead to huge numbers of additional casualties and more destruction.”
You have obviously not see much of the “escalations”, “provocations” and massive destruction Putin is committing against Ukraine.
Did Russia claim sovereignty over any part of Afghanistan?
You need to tour Africa, Latin America, SE Asia, and China and well ... Russia! (Did I leave anybody out!) They can match Ukraine (and Russia!) corruption and exceed it. Also they are well practiced at it and have been doing it a long time. (Read any book on Imperial Russia very very corrupt.) Somehow we deal with them and somehow their societies improve. Not ideal by any means but there it is. Former Commie states corruption for some reason seem to surprise many of us.
Also we tolerate a very large amount of corruption here and not just the Deep State everyone harps about! In state county & local government, I’ve seen it in the states I have lived in. We have our own forms of “Baksheesh”, we often just laugh about it. Not the right attitude! Perhaps we should clean up our house first before we point too many fingers!
You complain about the economy a lot on this board.
Do you not realize that if 1 tactical nuke goes off anywhere in the world that our fragile economy is going to collapse.
This fight is not our fight and I am genuinely afraid that idiots like this are going to get us into very deep trouble very quickly.
“He falsely assumed he was entitled to both and his reasoning was - because he was fighting a war - because he wants Ukraine to be European. Neither of whichh qualifies a country to have those.”
He - Zelansky - never implied he was “entitled”.
On the basis of your objections towards Zelansky and Ukraine, a similar argument would have to be that Reagan was wrong to aid Afghanistan in dispelling the Soviets.
I don’t think Reagan was wrong and I don’t think aiding Ukraine is wrong either.
Agree !
But countrie meddle in other countries. That’s been going on since there were countries to do the meddling and to be meddle with.
In many countries what we would call corrupt business practices are their business practices. So when in Rome!
“Because.....we don’t want to get into a war with a nuclear armed state over a conflict in a country where we have no vital national interests?”
Do we have any “vital national interests” in Europe anywhere???
Like the US did in Libya?
“Direct engagement of hostilities against Russia troops would be a no-no since the Cold War had even started.”
No true. It happened in Syria. Our forces were attacked by agents for Russia, with Russian special forces. On Trump’s orders we took them out. We said don’t mess with us and Putin backed off.
Poland is right next door to the Ukraine. Just fly the jets down to a Ukrainian base and bypass the US.
I think it is wise not to give Ukraine Jets.
MANPADS, AAA, & SAMS are sufficient to keep Russian aircraft at bay. Jets are expensive to maintain & are vulnerable on the ground & in the air. Ukrainian Fighter/bombers could flee into NATO countries while being pursued by Russian fighters bringing the war into NATO airspace. Ukraine would like nothing better than to lure NATO into the fight, even if it does cause WWIII.
Limiting this war to mostly ground combat is essential to preventing an escalation to regional conflict; it will further bog down Putin’s invasion, & give an edge to Ukraine in the fight.
Article 5 of NATO does not BIND OUR HANDS!
Article 5 sets forth the circumstances under which the other Member States are obligated to provide aid. It does NOT limit what NATO (or individual NATO Member States) can do to assist an innocent victim of aggression.
Again, I ask: If Russia unilaterally attacking and invading a peaceful Ukraine didn't trigger WW III (i.e., didn't provoke NATO into launching a full-scale retaliatory war) - then why should providing an attacked and invaded Ukraine with weapons to ward off and defend itself against an unlawful invader trigger WW III (i.e., provoke Russian retaliation)?
Why should we allow Russia freer hand than Russia allows us? Why should we allow, e.g., Russia to bomb locations a mere 20 km from NATO territory - while we feel restrained from bombing locations on Ukrainian territory - at the explicit request of the Ukraine - 20 km from Russian territory?
How does Russia "earn" more consideration than we ourselves?
Regards,
Nope.
“Because Ukraine was not a NATO member? NATO is only supposed to be invoked if a member is attacked.”
Not exactly true.
https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/topics_69366.htm
Well, I didn't think so at the time, but I have evolved.
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