Posted on 04/12/2020 8:12:15 AM PDT by fwdude
Meathead, you’d first have to catch the virus, then apply the tiny fraction.
Covid deaths are wildly exaggerated as well, as most deaths were more attributable to other factors.
Excellent post
Another excellent post
I don’t care.
I have close friends and business associates in Italy who are mourning lost loved ones, RIGHT NOW.
The deaths of these people were not caused by the leftist media or Dem politicians.
They haven’t impacted the US economy or the stock market; nor have they changed Trump’s odds in the upcoming election.
FluBros, liars and propogandists on this very site who are going thread to thread, posting this absolute garbage about “artificially inflated numbers” without one shred of evidence, or claiming that “ anyone who believes this is dangerous is a dupe of the deep state” can line up to kiss my hairy pucker.
I don’t claim to have any information that everyone else doesn’t have, and I didn’t post in this thread to argue with every idiot online about how many people die in car wrecks or any other totally inapt comparison.
I don’t like this pandemic any more than you do. Blame the Chicoms. They did this.
You’re wasting your time and bandwidth quibbling with me.
“ Covid deaths are wildly exaggerated as well, as most deaths were more attributable to other factors.”
Maybe. But I’ll continue to work from home, have groceries and wine delivered, relax on the deck, harvest from my land and isolate with my family and dogs.
It’s been four weeks since I was within six feet of anyone besides the wife and kid.
Not a bad gig.
You’re doing all that because big brother and the tv told you to do so.
Humans are like sheep... and have been since the early days, and written in the Bible.
He is risen...
I can work from home. The wife can work from home. The kid can take their high school classes online.
The dog is happy, the garden is coming up, the bees are working hard, and the wine is good.
We have many who are a different breed than the majority of Regan's era, while as far as the country goes, what I believe we can expect is that,
Combating Climate Change will be asserted as a more deadly threat than Covid-19.
An overall lower death rate will be attributed to the extreme measures imposed in order to combat Covid-19.
Lower temps in some areas will as well as measurable reduction in COs emissions overall will be found and attributed to the same extreme measures imposed in order to combat Covid-19.
The response to Covid-19 and the effects of extreme measures imposed because of it will be used as an argument to impose the same in order to combat Climate Change. Meaning combating "Covid Change" sets a precedent for to combating Climate Change.
Pres. Trump will be blamed for not doing enough to combat both, as well as not restoring the economy.
The majority of the populace, having shown that they uncritically believe what the MSM tells them, and look to the government (which is essential, versus anarchy) as its god, can be expected to go along with increasingly draconian measures to combat both viral (HIV excepting) health risks and Climate Change.
Those who protest but who belong to voting base of the liberals will be placated with funds increasingly taken from those who are presented as their persecutors, businesses and higher wage earners.
As income disparity is reduced thru overall lower incomes for all, the calls for socialism and greater government control will increase. Especially if another pandemic heath crises occurs and the dire warnings of Climate Change are believed.
Those who protest against this whole system, in particular conservative evangelicals, will be increasingly maligned and marginalized and punished.
As China watches the US drift toward the Venezuela trajectory, it will increase bullying its neighbors or forming anti-US alliances, and its push toward the West, and preparing for war, with Russia helping.
“Are you saying those two instances I mentioned were untrue?”
“I’m saying exactly what I’ve written here. Nothing less, nothing more.”
You said you believed in the virus numbers given by the govt. I said you can’t take those numbers at face value, so which is it? Either I’m right or I am wrong.
I based my statement on the following, gleaned from FR (note that last):
http://freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/3832972/posts
The Way the U.S. is Counting Wuhan Coronavirus Deaths Seems Problematic
http://freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/3833300/posts
The CDC Confesses to Lying About COVID-19 Death Numbers
http://freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/3831901/posts
Hospitals to List COVID-19 as Cause of Death Even if It’s “Assumed to Have Caused Or Contributed to Death” - Lab Tests Not Required
I am sorry for your present loss.
The deaths of these people were not caused by the leftist media or Dem politicians.
Actually read some of what a liberal MD says about Italy's state health care.
They haven’t impacted the US economy or the stock market; nor have they changed Trump’s odds in the upcoming election.
You have to know that the Covid-19 crises had indeed done both unless you read hardly anything on the subject.
FluBros, liars and propogandists on this very site who are going thread to thread, posting this absolute garbage about “artificially inflated numbers” without one shred of evidence,
Then that also indicates you are not reading much to the contrary of your opinion, for there has indeed been credible testimony to this, and to money being a motive, that the CDC allows liberal attribution of death to Covid . The same issue is related to the number of deaths in Italy.
I didn’t post in this thread to argue with every idiot online about how many people die in car wrecks or any other totally inapt comparison.
Then you simply have no argument except assertions, which is the very thing you charge others with.
I don’t like this pandemic any more than you do. Blame the Chicoms. They did this.
Which is one thing that you will find a majority consensus on here.
Grace and peace thru Jesus the Lord.
“ Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature, nor do the children of men as a whole experience it. God Himself is not secure, having given man dominion over His works! Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. The fearful are caught as often as the bold. Faith alone defends. Life is either a daring adventure or nothing. To keep our faces toward change and behave like free spirits in the presence of fate is strength undetectable.”
H. Keller
That is a wonderful quote.
Politically, nobody’s putting grandma’s entitlements on the chopping block; the Republicans were the last to add one (Medicare prescription plan).
In my area they’re fearful because people are dying; 8 people are dead in my town as of 4/7. The infected range in age from 11 to 75.
does your town have a funeral home?
Apparently people died before.
ME: “The deaths of these people were not caused by the leftist media or Dem politicians.”
You: “Actually read some of what a liberal MD says about Italy’s state health care.”
Me: What some idiot said does not change the fact that these Italian citizens dying has nothing whatsoever to do with your pet conspiracy theory. As I clearly stated, their deaths don’t affect US politics.
Again, YOU: “Then that also indicates you are not reading much to the contrary of your opinion, for there has indeed been credible testimony to this, and to money being a motive, that the CDC allows liberal attribution of death to Covid . The same issue is related to the number of deaths in Italy.”
Me: That’s hilarious. (has indeed) This is a link you posted to a lie YOU told. The referenced link claims Dr, Fauchi said that non-covid deaths were being classed as covid deaths, and provides a link to an article that makes no such assertion.
(testimony) Nice blog.
(and) Dr. Scott Jensen again. Same doc who’s quoted in the blog claiming that a letter from the Minnesota Department of Health said something that, upon reading the actual letter, it clearly did not say.
Here’s a link to the letter: https://www.health.state.mn.us/diseases/idlab/mls/LabAlerts/covid19reportingltr.pdf
(CDC allows...) You obviously did not read that one either. It simply states, as is reasonable, that if a person is believed to be infected with COVID-19, actually has a virus, develops sudden onset pneumonia and dies; that the assumption may be made that the cause of death is COVID-19, UNLESS THE PHYSICIAN REPORTS A DIFFERENT VIRUS AS THE CAUSE OF DEATH. You know, like a positive influenza test...
(related to the number of deaths)
This is where your agenda is revealed. You want to point to co-morbidities and claim that this virus is less deadly than it actually is. As if a person who suddenly develops a deep bleeding wound with a chunk of copper-jacketed lead at the bottom of it, but was also fat, or old, or a smoker, or ugly, shouldn’t be classified as dying of a gunshot wound. It makes no difference that the population in Italy was older. Now that they’re dead of COVID-19, they won’t have that problem any more.
You go ahead and prove that if they hadn’t contacted the coronavirus, they would have just died anyway.
You liars will not produce one shred of evidence that even ONE death has been attributed to COVID that was not actually caused by it, and then snivel and whine that someone doesn’t waste their time providing you with cites to prove you wrong.
If you want to continue, I have the time...
Actually read some of what a liberal MD says about Italy's state health care.
Me: What some idiot said does not change the fact that these Italian citizens dying has nothing whatsoever to do with your pet conspiracy theory. As I clearly stated, their deaths don’t affect US politics.
Actually you are the one who invoked deaths in Italy as not caused by liberals, and now you call a a doctor who has worked in Italy for 40 years an idiot because she provides first hand testimony against what you charge?
Moreover of course their deaths affect US politics for this fed the alarm which was used to warn of where the US could be headed and that influenced projection models that justified the extreme measure to prevent it. U.S. Surgeon General Dr. Jerome Adams told Fox News, "When you look at the projections, there's every chance that we could be Italy." - https://komonews.com/news/coronavirus/us-surgeon-general-us-cases-are-where-italy-was-2-weeks-ago-03-16-2020
Again, YOU: “Then that also indicates you are not reading much to the contrary of your opinion, for there has indeed been credible testimony to this, and to money being a motive, that the CDC allows liberal attribution of death to Covid . The same issue is related to the number of deaths in Italy. ”
Me: That’s hilarious. (has indeed) This is a link you posted to a lie YOU told. The referenced link claims Dr, Fauchi said that non-covid deaths were being classed as covid deaths, and provides a link to an article that makes no such assertion.
Actually I see that did make a mistake in copying and pasting in that I left out the preface to Fauci, which the link in my post to you and my post i linked to provided, which states, "In Italy, that country's equivalent to Dr. Anthony Fauci (not a perfect analogy, but near enough to our purposes) admitted that seven out of eight deaths attributed to the virus were really caused by one or more other comorbidities. In other words, the patient was on death's door whether the virus got to them or not."
Likewise the testimony in other link in both posts states, "only 12 per cent of death certificates have shown a direct causality from coronavirus."
Thus you can only object to the erroneous attribution to Fauci and argue that the liberal attribution to Covid as the cause of death is justified to the degree that it significantly increasing the fatality rate assigned to it. .
(and) Dr. Scott Jensen again. Same doc who’s quoted in the blog claiming that a letter from the Minnesota Department of Health said something that, upon reading the actual letter, it clearly did not say. Here’s a link to the letter: https://www.health.state.mn.us/diseases/idlab/mls/LabAlerts/covid19reportingltr.pdf
No, that brief one page pdf is not what was referred to in the article linked to in the FR post, for what the Dr. received was "a seven-page letter from the Minnesota Department of Health that gave guidance on how to classify COVID-19 deaths. The letter said that if a patient died of, e.g., pneumonia, and was believed to have been exposed to COVID-19, the death certificate should say that COVID-19 was the cause of death even though the patient was never tested, or never tested positive, for that disease."
Another article provides this: “Last Friday I received a 7-page document that told me if I had an 86-year-old patient that had pneumonia but was never tested for COVID-19 but some time after she came down with pneumonia we learned that she had been exposed to her son who had no symptoms but later on was identified with COVID-19, then it would be appropriate to diagnose on the death certificate COVID-19,” Dr. Scott Jensen said.
(CDC allows...) You obviously did not read that one either. It simply states, as is reasonable, that if a person is believed to be infected with COVID-19, actually has a virus, develops sudden onset pneumonia and dies; that the assumption may be made that the cause of death is COVID-19, UNLESS THE PHYSICIAN REPORTS A DIFFERENT VIRUS AS THE CAUSE OF DEATH. You know, like a positive influenza test...
Actually if i had not read it then I would not have quoted, “COVID-19 should be reported on the death certificate for all decedents where the disease caused or is assumed to have caused or contributed to death " [emp. by CDC]. That is what the linked document says, but which nowhere states, "UNLESS THE PHYSICIAN REPORTS A DIFFERENT VIRUS AS THE CAUSE OF DEATH."
The closest you get to that is
The underlying cause depends upon what and where conditions are reported on the death certificate. However, the rules for coding and selection of the underlying cause of death are expected to result in COVID- 19 being the underlying cause more often than not. Meaning while the physician can report a different virus as the cause of death, yet “COVID-19 should be reported on the death certificate for all decedents where the disease caused or is assumed to have caused or contributed to death "
Which is why the new "rules for coding and selection of the underlying cause of death are expected to result in COVID- 19 being the underlying cause more often than not."
This is where your agenda is revealed. You want to point to co-morbidities and claim that this virus is less deadly than it actually is.
Actually I just posted on how deadly it can be, and likely have been infected weeks ago myself at age 67, but your assertion is begging the question as to how deadly it actually is, which I do see as magnified as a deadly threat to the entire age group pf the population. When about 98% or more in the US recover from it, and far more of those under healthy people under 60 (a bit more in some places, and more in Iceland), then I see the extended extreme all-age group nationwide restrictions as doing more harm in the long term.
And with the liberal media hyping hysteria for political purposes, and that perspective is lacking. .
Protect the most vulnerable from the womb to the grave, while may all find salvation thru repentant faith in the risen Lord Jesus. Grace and peace thru Him.
I’m not going to argue with you about Italians dying while you pretend to be so obtuse that you cannot understand the simple meaning of what I’ve written.
Coronavirus killed those people. Not your damned stupid conspiracy.
The CDC guidelines that are keeping your Dr. Jensen in the news, actually say “In cases where a definite diagnosis of COVID cannot be made but is suspected or likely (e.g. the circumstances are compelling with a reasonable degree of certainty) it is acceptable to report COVID-19 on a death certificate as ‘probable’ or ‘presumed.’”. This in no way supports the argument that the CDC is causing doctors to overreport coronavirus deaths.
What the Dr. is actually arguing, is that the precise and specific event that ended the patient’s life should be listed, and NOT the underlying cause. For example:
“Jensen gave a hypothetical example of a patient who died while suffering from influenza. If the patient was elderly and had symptoms like fever and cough a few days before passing away, the doctor explained, he would have listed “respiratory arrest” as the primary cause of death.” “I’ve never been encouraged to [notate ‘influenza’],” he said. “I would probably write ‘respiratory arrest’ to be the top line, and the underlying cause of this disease would be pneumonia ... I might well put emphysema or congestive heart failure, but I would never put influenza down as the underlying cause of death and yet that’s what we are being asked to do here.”
This statement does not indicate that the numbers are artificially inflated. It’s just some POLITICIAN who has seized the opportunity for free publicity by arguing meaningless and esoteric trivia. He’d list “emphysema”, but never “influenza”... What, because the flu can’t kill you? Or is the “flu” not a systemic disease, in the good doctors mind? Who cares, really? He’s not saying that non-covid deaths could be falsely recorded as covid related. He’s saying NO deaths should be listed as due to COVID-19 infection; a lunatic assertion.
From your own cited article in the “Telegraph”: This does not mean that Covid-19 did not contribute to a patient’s death.
Let’s talk about this slanted crap for a minute... “contributed”... How much did it contribute? 50%? That would mean that absent a Covid-19 infection, the patient would still be at least half alive, or to use another term, NOT DEAD.
Suppose this joker was so sick, that he was 98% dead already, even before he got sick: Covid-19 only “contributed” 2% to his level of not-living, yet still, without Covid-19, he still isn’t quite dead.
So what killed him?
Meaning that you are not fit for more attempted reasonable meaningful exchange except to say I am not arguing a conspiracy, but providing evidence that what can be expected of medical and government reporting is likely taking place to some degree, versus simply believing every word that promotes deleterious hysteria. If you want to take a middle ground then they would be welcome, but I believe my skepticism is well warranted.
My statements to which you responded:
“The deaths of these people were not caused by the leftist media or Dem politicians.”
“They haven’t impacted the US economy or the stock market; nor have they changed Trump’s odds in the upcoming election.”
Both of these statements are clearly referencing the preceding: “I have close friends and business associates in Italy who are mourning lost loved ones, RIGHT NOW.”
Only an illiterate, or a liar would pretend that there was some other meaning (referencing whether or not the media is overhyping the pandemic) hidden in those words, yet you’ve done so repeatedly. See:
“Actually read some of what a liberal MD says about Italy’s state health care.”
And:
“Actually you are the one who invoked deaths in Italy as not caused by liberals, and now you call a a doctor who has worked in Italy for 40 years an idiot because she provides first hand testimony against what you charge?”
As to your Doctor Jensen;
(and) Dr. Scott Jensen again. Same doc who’s quoted in the blog claiming that a letter from the Minnesota Department of Health said something that, upon reading the actual letter, it clearly did not say. Here’s a link to the letter: https://www.health.state.mn.us/diseases/idlab/mls/LabAlerts/covid19reportingltr.pdf
No, that brief one page pdf is not what was referred to in the article linked to in the FR post, for what the Dr. received was “a seven-page letter from the Minnesota Department of Health that gave guidance on how to classify COVID-19 deaths. The letter said that if a patient died of, e.g., pneumonia, and was believed to have been exposed to COVID-19, the death certificate should say that COVID-19 was the cause of death even though the patient was never tested, or never tested positive, for that disease.”
It’s funny that Doctor Jensen hasn’t provided a copy of that letter to anyone… Also funny that no one else appears to have received a copy.
Another article provides this: “Last Friday I received a 7-page document that told me if I had an 86-year-old patient that had pneumonia but was never tested for COVID-19 but some time after she came down with pneumonia we learned that she had been exposed to her son who had no symptoms but later on was identified with COVID-19, then it would be appropriate to diagnose on the death certificate COVID-19,” Dr. Scott Jensen said.
Again, where is this letter, Dr. J?
Your Doctor Jensen is a liar. He also made this idiotic statement: “under the CDC guidelines, a patient who died after being hit by a bus and tested positive for coronavirus would be listed as having presumed to have died from the virus regardless of whatever damage was caused by the bus.”
Here are the CDC guidelines:
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvss/vsrg/vsrg03-508.pdf
Tell me that you can read what the Doctor states above into the words of that document.
So you want another chance at a coherent response? (Learning some basic html would help.)
“The deaths of these people were not caused by the leftist media or Dem politicians.” “They haven’t impacted the US economy or the stock market; nor have they changed Trump’s odds in the upcoming election.” Both of these statements are clearly referencing the preceding: “I have close friends and business associates in Italy who are mourning lost loved ones, RIGHT NOW.” Only an illiterate, or a liar would pretend that there was some other meaning (referencing whether or not the media is overhyping the pandemic) hidden in those words, yet you’ve done so repeatedly. See:
Rather than either of your ad hominems being true, it is you who fails to see that my response corresponds to your reference to deaths in Italy as not impacting the US economy or the stock market or Trump’s odds in the upcoming election.
As that was your argument, thus my response with the SG's statement was that deaths in Italy did so, but influencing projection models that justified the extreme measure to prevent it, which in turn impacts the economy and the upcoming election. And your recourse to referring to others as idiots, illiterate, and or liars is part of what makes you unfit to attempted reasonable debate.
“Actually read some of what a liberal MD says about Italy’s state health care.” And: “Actually you are the one who invoked deaths in Italy as not caused by liberals, and now you call a a doctor who has worked in Italy for 40 years an idiot because she provides first hand testimony against what you charge?”
Is there supposed to be an argument here?
As to your Doctor Jensen; (and) Dr. Scott Jensen again. Same doc who’s quoted in the blog claiming that a letter from the Minnesota Department of Health said something that, upon reading the actual letter, it clearly did not say. Here’s a link to the letter: https://www.health.state.mn.us/diseases/idlab/mls/LabAlerts/covid19reportingltr.pdf
You tried this before, so why are you repeating a refuted claim? That is not the document, as was shown.
It’s funny that Doctor Jensen hasn’t provided a copy of that letter to anyone… Also funny that no one else appears to have received a copy.
My mistake as I copied the wrong link, but a simple search for the statement which provides as a top result a story with a link to what you assert no one else appears to have received a copy.
Again, where is this letter, Dr. J? So you implicitly charge Doctor Jensen with lying because you fail to look? Look down at the bottom of the page, or click here .
Yes, there is reporting on other causes, but broadly what i see is, "If COVID–19 played a role in the death, this condition should be specified on the death certificate." "In cases where a definite diagnosis of COVID–19 cannot be made, but it is suspected or likely (e.g., the circumstances are compelling within a reasonable degree of certainty), it is acceptable to report COVID–19 on a death certificate as “probable” or “presumed.”
Your interpretation can be (and almost certainly will be) different than that of the Doctor's, but I would normally defer to his judgment in this case of what would be be appropriate in listing the COD.
Your Doctor Jensen is a liar. He also made this idiotic statement: “under the CDC guidelines, a patient who died after being hit by a bus and tested positive for coronavirus would be listed as having presumed to have died from the virus regardless of whatever damage was caused by the bus.”
That statement was a rhetorical question inferring it could be possible, though that is hyperbole versus the leeway that the CDC provides for, as shown, wherein “COVID-19 should be reported on the death certificate for all decedents where the disease caused or is assumed to have caused or contributed to death " Which can indeed lead to inflating the COVID-19 death rate by reporting that as tyey cause, if though no testing was done, but based upon the coroner's judgment of what caused the deceased patient’s symptoms
Here are the CDC guidelines: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvss/vsrg/vsrg03-508.pdf
Those are not the only guidelines, or what I provided, which includes the case of a old person who dies 5 days after being exposed to an ill family member who subsequently was diagnosed with COVID–19, and she developed a high fever and severe cough. "Although no testing was done, the coroner determined that the likely UCOD was COVID–19 given the patient’s symptoms and exposure to an infected individual.
I would concur that is COVID–19 likely was the cause, yet it could be the flu, and it is indeed a judgment call which impugns the death rate of COVID–19 stats. And the flu.
That is all. I have had enough of lack of objectivity and recourse to ad hominen, but I actually thank you for challenging the extreme.
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