Brexit: Talks on backstop 'alternative arrangements'

bbc.com ^ | 4 February 2019 | BBC

[Berlin_Freeper]

That’s two links.

[SteveH]

“I’m afraid U.K. is run by bungling idiots.”

maybe they’ve even managed to bungle the arrangement for paid shills as well.

lol

[Cronos]

Fine but for sake of discussion as well as for formal legal clarity, we need a way to refer to switzerland’s EU status. Switzerland is either (1) in the EU or (2) out of the EU

But that's the thing -- Switzerland and Norway are BOTH in and out of the EU :)

Think of it this way - Puerto Rico -- it has to follow a lot of US laws, its people can work in theUS, US people can work in PR etc. - now if PR was rich, it would have to pay into the US. But it still can't decide on the laws, rules etc.

Similarly the Swiss and the Norwegians have to

1. Follow EU laws
2. Pay into the EU budget
3. Allow EU citizens to freely work in their lands without a work permit
4. Yet have no say in the decision making process

Taxation with no representation - and they freely chose that

[Cronos]

Perhaps this is part of the problem. The procedure by which laws are agreed to seems in part designed to ratchet up pressure to remain and be a good fellow. This perhaps does not yield enough flexibility to achieve a successful republi -- but it's NOT a republic and most don't want it to be a republic. This is a loose federation of nations.

The procedure by which laws are agreed is such that every nation agrees to the laws or the law doesn't happen -- like the immigration sharing idea.

[Cronos]

They don’t say “death to exiters” - the UK said in 2017 March they would leave, then wasted time in negotiating the terms of leaving (meaning the future trade deal) and when it was finally agreed in nov 2018, they then two months later rejected it. What gives? 2 years without getting their act together?

[Cronos]

The UK people and politicians want free trade because that's what the nation depends on and has depended on since the 1600s

Yes, the UK leaving leaves a hole in the budget no doubt

The GB is left to drift in the wind because it hasn't prepared for a hard brexit. Nothing.

[Cronos]

Letting NI go - that's sensible but politically dangerous - May has her majority in parliament because of the DUP - the unionist party in NI. That goes and she loses control of parliament

Next, I would wager at least 25% to 40% of NIs don't want to join with the RoI - what to do about that?

aAnd finally, if NI goes, Scotland will go too - the UK will be just England and Wales. THAT is doable

[Cronos]

Can you explain which is this punitive trade agreement you are talking about? The EU told the UK they got 20 months after Brexit where they get all the benefits of membership except voting and had to pay for that. They could negotiate other deals with anyone else at that time. But from 2021 they would be completely out. This made sense

What is punitive about this temporary agreement?

And/or, trying to attach an indefinite but extemely lengthy wait to a new agreement. -- hmmm.. how? The agreement was reached between May and the 27 states in November 2018. May took her time to start the negotiations. The EU is giving her time to discuss the details, but she's not using that time.

You just seem to expect a lengthy bureaucratic process as a given without justification except perhaps for explaining that the EU is a bureaucrat’s dream and a nightmare for everyone else - Nope, I said that it requires 27 nations to approve. This is not bureaucracy but any system that requires the approval of all its members rather than a simple majority

The Canada option still took months to negotiate - how would say farmers like it if the US negotiated a deal with the UK that mandates all chickens must be kept as per UK laws, all eggs should not be washed etc. -- these discussions take time even for bilateral negotiations

And I gave you a list of benefits in #167

1. Being part of a bigger trading bloc allows for companies to sell to a wider group of people, thereby to grow and expand
2. it allows people from the UK to set up businesses in Poland, work, live and settle there (and vice versa)
3. It allows common standards of goods and services - so that you know that if you buy a product for babies in Portugal it has to follow the same standards as a product for babies in Estonia
4. it allows the UK to punch above its weight in trade or diplomatic negotiations with India, China, Russia, the USA etc -- if the UK negotiates with the US by itself it has less "pull" - as it has less cards to play with. But as part of the EU it can get a better deal and it has got better deals for itself
5. It allows for companies to choose the UK as their base of operations for Europe. Since the UK would have its own trading laws and lower taxes, but still have open borders with the EU, it made eminent sense to set up shop there

Taking this to the US case -- it's better for California to be part of the USA than to be independent

[Cronos]

Guys, if you can't debate without tossing out fake insults like shill, that makes you as bad as the leftists.

Nope, I don't see the EU as all-good, but it's not all-evil either

And there are too many false statements flying around -- you want to attack the EU, attack it on facts. Fact #1 being that it denies its Christian heritage and Fact #2 that Germany-France TRY to lord it over everyone else

You want to talk about Brexit then you come up to the uncomfortable fact for Americans that the majority reason the leavers voted leave was that they didn't like the EU eastern Europeans coming to the UK.

Finally, the FACT is that May has fumbled her way for 2 years and produced nothing. If she decided in March 2017 that she was going for a no-deal brexit, she should have planned for it. Right now she has planned for nothing except staying in and her remaining in power.

[Cronos]

Nice - using the leftist tactics of spouting supposed insults instead of answering the question. Let me repeat it for you -- why is the deal that the UK and the EU jointly reached in November 2018 unfair?

The EU said

1. You can get 20 months to orderly end the trading relationship
2. During those 20 months you get to keep ALL the Benefits of membership BUT
3. since you get all the benefits, you need to pay
4. since you are leaving, you don't get voting rights
5. you need to figure out the border between RoI and NI because you signed a deal to keep that border open

What exactly is unfair for you, ShillH?