Silvio Berlusconi promises flat rate for all Italian taxpayers [23%]

TheLocal.it ^ | 12 January 2018 16:46 CET+01:00 | AFP

[Olog-hai]

A promise of a flat tax by former prime minister Silvio Berlusconi on Friday sparked sharp reactions from opponents ahead of a general election and head-scratching among economists.

Campaigning ahead of a general election on March 4^th at the helm of the conservative Forza Italia movement, Berlusconi said on TV late on Thursday that such a tax would start at the current minimum rate of 23 percent, before being brought down to below 20 percent.

The remarks by Berlusconi — who never sought to introduce a flat tax during his three terms as prime minister — immediately drew criticism from center-left former prime minister Matteo Renzi, who said he wondered where the money to finance the move would come from. “The flat tax at 15 percent would cost €95 billion, and at 20 percent €57 billion,” Renzi said on Friday. […]

… Luigi Marattin, an economist and former Renzi aide, called the flat tax “a colossal joke” and “deeply unfair” because it would benefit mostly the wealthy.

Capital Economics analyst Jack Allen, said imposing a flat tax “wouldn’t be quite that simple”, possibly violating the Italian constitution which calls for a progressive tax code. …

[ClearCase_guy]

I get a kick out the economist saying that a flat tax would be “deeply unfair”.

I had quite a time debating a philosophy professor in college. He insisted that the only fair approach to taxation would be to pick winners and losers and make some choices about who should pay more and who should pay less and under what circumstances some people might qualify for deductions. A sharp progressive schedule would be the only fair method.

I said: How about we treat everyone the same?

He said: Madness! That wouldn’t be fair at all!

[KarlInOhio]

http://www.senato.it/1024

Articolo 53

Tutti sono tenuti a concorrere alle spese pubbliche in ragione della loro capacità contributiva.

Il sistema tributario è informato a criteri di progressività

http://www.senato.it/documenti/repository/istituzione/costituzione_inglese.pdf

Art. 53

Every person shall contribute to public expenditure in accordance with their capability.

The tax system shall be progressive.

It doesn't say how progressive, so how about 23% for under a billion euros and 23.0001% above a billion.

[the OlLine Rebel]

Berlusconi may be yet another imperfect male politician, but I will forever remember him gratefully for calling out Moslems for what they are, after 9/11.

[DennisR]

“’The flat tax at 15 percent would cost €95 billion, and at 20 percent €57 billion,’ Renzi said on Friday.”

Don’t you love how these politicians only think what it is going to cost government???

[thediesel]

I am Italian, if you have questions, please do ask.

One thing to be noted is that our Constitution was written in the immediate aftermath of WW2 and was largely a compromise between the Catholic faction and the Communist faction of the antifascist resistance (Fascist Italy had surrendered in 1943, and we had been occupied by the Germans for two years).

[Impy]

I think the Italian right needs new blood but what are you gonna do!

The 5 Star Movement appears to be the socialists main competition at the moment though, they are leading in the polls with socialist Matteo “Reek” Renzi in 2nd and Silvio and friends in third.

[Olog-hai]

There was a difference between the fascists and communists? I cannot find it based on things that Mussolini said, especially while in power and established as a fascist rather than communist.

“God does not exist. Religion in science is an absurdity, in practice an immorality and in men a disease.”

— 1924

“Fascism establishes the real equality of individuals before the nation… the object of the regime in the economic field is to ensure higher social justice for the whole of the Italian people… What does social justice mean? It means work guaranteed, fair wages, decent homes, it means the possibility of continuous evolution and improvement. Nor is this enough. It means that the workers must enter more and more intimately into the productive process and share its necessary discipline… As the past century was the century of capitalist power, the twentieth century is the century of power and glory of labor.”

— 1935

“We go to battle against the plutocratic and reactionary democracies of the west… This gigantic struggle is nothing other than a phase in the logical development of our revolution; it is the struggle of peoples that are poor but rich in workers against the exploiters who hold on ferociously to the monopoly off all the riches and all the gold of the earth…

— 1940

“When the war is over, in the world’s social revolution that will be followed by a more equitable distribution of the earth’s riches, due account must be kept of the sacrifices and of the discipline maintained by the Italian workers. The Fascist revolution will make another decisive step to shorten social distances.”

— 1941

All the rhetoric of communists, which Mussolini called himself originally. And one can see a lot of the rhetoric of the USA’s Democratic Party in there too.

[thediesel]

Fascism presented itself as opposite to Communism as much as it presented itself opposite to Democracy (”la terza via”). And I specifically have to question the translation of the 1941 quote.

[Olog-hai]

Does not seem like the worst translation to me, after I found the Italian original, although it may be a bit off (e.g. “go to battle” is euphemistically translated; it should be “take the field”); and it is truncated. It is from the declaration of war on France and England, which was delivered on 10 June 1940.

Mussolini describing fascism’s characteristics leaves no doubt in my mind that it is merely communism repackaged; he seems to have left out the specific ban on religion, but he himself dogmatically declares the nonexistence of God, which is at the core of Marxism.

[Reily]

Mussolini originally was a socialist.

[Olog-hai]

Yes he was, and he remained so in spite of remonstrations to the contrary, e.g. speech like this.

“We declare war against socialism, not because it is socialism, but because it has opposed nationalism…. We intend to be an active minority, attract the proletariat away from the official Socialist party. But if the middle class thinks that we are going to be their lightning rods, they are mistaken.”

— Milan speech, 03/23/1919

Yet every characteristic of fascism in practice is socialism.

[Reily]

Agree!

[thediesel]

Which dovetails nicely with the Patti Lateranensi. Wait, no, the opposite, it completely contradicts your position, being as they effectively recognized Catholicism as the official religion of Italy.

[Olog-hai]

Nice try. Were Catholics active in the fascist government? No. What happened in Italy was what happened with the Orthodox Church in the USSR. Fascism and communism are no different in practice, and not even terribly different in rhetoric.

[thediesel]

Please, tell me more about my family history.

[GOPsterinMA]

Looks like the Five Star gang is the best bet.

Reek really reeks.

Silvio should do the right thing and align/integrate with the Five Star group.