I don’t care...the fact is you don’t know the real mechanics and I don’t know the real mechanics of what the star was...I’m just a dummy who reads the Bible and wonders about why people suddenly get up to go hundreds of miles because they saw something so extraordinary they had to go see it. You have an opinion on how the Bible story was to be interpreted based on your view of celestial mechanics and a bunch of sophistry based on old traditions and wivestales not found in scripture.
I had asked a question on another thread about how “we have seen in his star in the east” should have been interpreted and was told that it literally meant...”We Magi of the east have seen his star”...which was cool because that tells me they were viewing his star from the east looking west. Some added it may have been wise men of the Nabetean region and some also suggested perhaps some Zoroastrian folks from the Persian region. The Southern Cross processional idea came from a poster...I thought might have been you but it could have been someone else. We don’t know exactly what time of the year Jesus was born though I suspect either September of March based on the fact that shepherds had their flocks out by night. If two years had gone by before the Magi arrived, we definitely don’t know what season it was in terms of the constellations. Israel is hundreds of miles north of the equator but someone on one of the threads cited that 2000 years ago the extreme top stars of the southern cross could be seen just over the equator because Sol hadn’t moved to the apparent position point to where the southern cross is now.
Yet even someone with a cursory knowledge of astronomy would recognize that depending on the time of year the star constellations appear to reverse their rising and setting depending on Earth’s position in orbit around Sol...and that the stars and the constellations all appear to circle Polaris,( as seen in Israel 2000 years ago) rising eastward from beyond the lands of the Magi and setting westward with the pattern reversing exactly 6 months later or solstice to solstice! (depending on what point one counted the days)
The Magi who were “ASTROLOGERS” who would forecast portents based on their legends of the stars, but nevertheless who were schooled observers of the night sky, would already have noted position placements, what was changing what was not...what appeared important what was not. (and if they were super smart wise men of the day that we think they were, they probably had access to old records that noted the expected repetitions of planet positions and constellations with which to base their predictions on.)
I believe they saw a fixed star out of position with any predictable constellation positions which never varied from its position through out the night nor with the seasons and if you want to argue about the southern cross or some other celestial body that would show no apparent movments, then the star was a fixed point of light separate from any other known body that never varied in intensity or position through out the night or with the seasons.
Every 6 months, all constellations would reverse their apparent positions but this special star did not. This is where we differ....you scoff at me because I believe God created something special and you argue from a set mechanistic, earth and sol moving through various houses point of view which symbolically point to the fixed times in which God would perform his wonders, based on old notions of what various constellations were supposed to mean spiritually. I see no book of Constellations in the Bible and there must be a reason for it. The Magi were astrologers but also learned men who knew the skies and knew their history and their times!
I maintain that the star they saw was different and what would appear mundane to the average observer excited them tremendously. You adhere to a more mechanistic view while applying questionable astrological interpretations as to what YOU THINK the star of Bethlehem was. I think it was a special star much in the way God prepared a great fish to “swallow up” Jonah, or how God spoke to Moses out of a burning bush.
I know there are computer programs I can access to see what was what 2000 years ago...so an absolute knowledge of astronomy is not necessary for what I believe. There are those that argue that the star was a planetary conjunction that occurred in 6 BC...but such conjunctions don’t last 2 years.
I maintain they saw something so extraordinary that it prompted them to go to Israel to see what must have been the birth of a great king! (It would have occurred within a past period of 2 years because that was the time cut off that Herod used in ordering the murder of all the young children 2 years and under in the Bethlehem region.) God must have primed their hearts for this was a spiritual journey!
Imagine the spectacle of GENTILE wisemen arriving in Jerusalem asking the JEWS of the whereabouts of their new king so that the GENTILE Magi could worship him.
You are missing the important parts of the story...the celestial mechanics and the krinkly bits of what the star was or wasn’t don’t matter....the fulfillment of about a score or more of prophecies concerning this event alone are the real story!(The inclusion of the gentiles as an inheritance of the sons of Abraham, the prophecy of Balaam in Numbers who stated that “A star shall come forth out of Jacob, a sceptre shall arise out of Israel....” and many others)
No! I believe this was a supernatural star, quite out of sync with the rest of God’s glorious heavens and the Magi knew it. They knew it because God filled them with a supernaturally inspired zeal to find and worship this child...who was the hope of both Jew and Gentile. Men of great vision, groping in darkness, looking for light and truth so God winked at them and showed them that star of Jacob, that young child, who was the light of the world!
So argue all you wish about archeology and celestial mechanics, but don’t miss the meaning of the Star. You have only a nicely dressed up theory as to what the star was and I have my own opinions. God will set us both straight. But I know the MEANING of what the star was and I suspect you do as well. So lets just wind up our play trains and send them around the base of the cross and out through the empty grave...next stop; Eternity!
"Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from
the(added by the translators) east to Jerusalem, . . ." (Mt. 2:1 AV)
"τουThe δεAnd ιησουJesus γεννηθεντος(he)was born ενin (locative) βηθλεεμBethlehem τηςof the ιουδαιαςJudaea ενin ημεραιςdays ηρωδουof Herod τουthe βασιλεωςking ιδουlook! μαγοιMagoi=wise men αποfrom ανατολωνAnatolia=the land east of Greece παρεγενοντοshowed up ειςinto ιεροσολυμαJerusalem" (Mt. 2:1 Textus Receptus, with my translation of each word superscripted).
The area of Anatolia was well known to all Greek speakers, and the confirmation of that is given here:
"Assuwa is considered the Bronze Age origin for the name `Asia' as the Romans later designated the area. It was called, by the Greeks, Anatolia (literally, 'place of the rising sun, for those lands to the east of Greece)."
You seem to think (or probably most rather likely have been led to believe, or merely guess) that the "wise men" came from somewhere to the east of Jerusalem, but you don't know where, and that they looking to the west, saw a miraculous star.
Others read the English read the KJV and others and assume that these wise men, looking in an easterly direction, saw in that direction a star that did not pass overhead during the night. However it got them to Jerusalem area from that supposition would be a great mystery, wouldn't it?
Of course, neither of these untutored assumptions are true. The residence and learning center of the Magoi was in Anatolia, to the north of Jerusalem, and their Star that symbolized a royal being appeared in their view to the south, in the direction of Israel, because such a star seen on the horizon would remain in pretty much the same place throughout the night. Actually, it will have been in the same direction for a thousand years, inching closer and closer to the horizon that generations of astronomers had been observing it. But now, in the fulness of time, it was about to disappear unless they traveled south far enough to observe it again.
And at that time of history, the star could be seen in Jerusalem. On going to Bethlehem, six miles almost directly south, the star would remain directly before them, though low on the horizon. Today, due to shift in the position of the Southern Cross more toward the axial direction of Earth's South pole, that constellation cannot be seen until one travels about a thousand miles more toward the Equator.
So wherever you see "East" in this passage, it is the commonly then known name of that locality now referred to as Turkey.
Let me call to attention to your opening sentence to which I am replying:
I dont care...the fact is you dont know the real mechanics and I dont know the real mechanics of what the star was.
What you really have said is that if you do not know the real mechanics of what the star was (or who the Magoi were, or in what direction they saw the star), you absolutely have no basis, intellectual or spiritual, for arguing that I don't.
Another observation to be made from your screed is that you are so easily self-inflicted with the consequences of unsupported opinion that your arguments fail to be taken seriously.
The following link ought to help widen your horizons a bit:
From this article, the following is of note:
Who saw it first?
It is believed that Amerigo Vespucci was the first European explorer to see the "Four Stars," as he called them, while on his third voyage in 1501. Yet, Crux was plainly visible everywhere in the United States some 5,000 years ago, as well as in ancient Greece and Babylonia.
According to the writings of Richard Hinckley Allen (1838-1908), an expert in stellar nomenclature, the Southern Cross was last seen on the horizon of Jerusalem around the time that Christ was crucified. But thanks to precession an oscillating motion of the Earth's axis the Cross ended up getting shifted out of view well to the south over the ensuing centuries.