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To: mdmathis6
Well, just let me say that my God, Who created the universe with a view toward the pre-arrangement of the timing and placement of an entire constellation symbolizing for ages His Son's birth and His death, to appear to seekers whose only avenue of access to sighting the brilliant light that appeared so close to the horizon as to occur just above the Bethlehem residence of Joseph; that God seems to bet a bit larger than one that could only manage a teeny lighted source of the kind placed at the same spatial coordinates of Jesus' residence.

I'm much more impressed with the omnipotent and omniscient supernaturality--using His own physical laws ordering His Creation to the end of glorifying Himself and His Son--than the smallness of yours.

And I'm not trying to spite you or scorn your lack of ingenuity, just making a comparison.

I believe in miracles, even ones that to me are as yet unexplainable, for that is my occupation as a trained, degreed scientist: to esplain the unknown. But I have seen that many of God's operations simply employ processes that are not well-understood or even recognized at the time He manifests them.

For instance, you might want to take a look at the twelve "mysteries" discussed in the Old Testament Scriptures but not understood, but revealed in the New Testament Scriptures for the Church Age believer. I have spent about a year effectively teaching about the revelation of these "Mysteries" to uninitiated Christian men.

You might be wrong in trying to stack your untutored credulousness against what is clearly seen when Bible-based scientific examination is employed by the educated person of genuine faith.

"Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: . . ." (Isa. 28:9 AV).

Don't try to wave away a completely reasonable explanation of a Biblical event by simply assigning a lack of your own understanding as being a completely non-physical event snatched from another unearthly dimension. All you need to say to me is, "I can't yet grasp the conditions through my own limited understanding, and I have as yet insufficient knowledge base to accept yours." But don't tell me that my explanation is wrong if you cannot prove it. That would be a puerile attitude.

55 posted on 12/28/2017 1:25:31 PM PST by imardmd1 (Fiat Lux)
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To: imardmd1

So you insult me by calling me stupid? Do you also deny that Moses actually saw a burning Bush that was not consumed? Or that Christ never made the water into wine? Or that God has no power to create a geosynchronous beacon that seemed to call only the Magi at the time as no one else seemed to be interested in such a sight or to ponder on its significance? These men were called and they responded, so much so were they called that God even spoke to them in a dream not to go back to Herod. You call me credulous! I believe in Christ and I believe you believe in Christ... there-fore the atheists would call us both out for our credulous simplicity! Yet you claim perhaps to be less credulous than me....hmmmmm. In truth, the both of us can’t really be sure of what the star mechanically was...but I think I can argue the real meaning, better than you!

I think your view of God is way too small. I have waved away nothing about your explanations just offered another view beyond your obviously mechanized view of God’s universe. Why just these Magi...was no one else watching at the time? Perhaps as Paul describes such gentiles, God perhaps “winked” at them as they groped about in darkness looking for light...and what did they find, a star which led to the living God in flesh!

I understand what you are trying to say about the stars and the times and the seasons, but the bible gives no primer as to what the spiritual significance of what the various stars and constellations are supposed to mean, (just that they are given to denote the seasons and for signs)...we have only the vague suppositions and traditions handed down to us.

I have not strayed from any biblical texts in making my own assertions; the learned Magi of that time would have had the same knowledge as you or I in terms of what belonged in the sky of those times and what did not! That they were not completely knowledgeable of Jewish history of prophecy was evident when they asked,” where the child was”. The chief priests had to be consulted who pointed out that it was Bethlehem. The Bible says the “star went before them” not my own “credulity” so we have only the Bible to go on, not your “wind up Toy” view of God’s creation!. God acts tactically as well strategically, coming and going when and where he wills. Paul says ‘in him we live and move and have our being’!

You miss the whole story of the magi and the matter what the mechanics of the star or its origin...I mean I have no real animus toward your opinion, perhaps it is all “wind up toy”. Yet the real story is the motivations of these magi in question...what about this “star” so motivated these men that over a two year period, they observed, planned, and traveled to see a “king” that they worshipped as their own despite not being of his culture or heritage? That is what you are missing!!!

Moses saw a bush, then saw that the bush was not burning. I believe the Magi saw a star, then they saw that that it did not move or deviate from its position, no matter the time of night, nor with the seasons. Only Polaris was known to have no apparent movements. This , I believe got them to interested in finding out more.

Yet that is my opinion...I have watched the stars over my they move east to west and how the little and big dippers move around Polaris at night and how the positions change with the season.

You have an opinion as to what you think the star was in terms of the natural progression of the southern cross as it’s upper star hadn’t quite gone over the equator; but it still would have apparent movement on a 24 hour rotation of the earth as well as it’s position change as the earth went around the sun.(yes like the Greeks, they knew the earth was round and that the earth went around the sun,,,still think I’m credulous?)

My opinion was that the Magi had access to records of astronomy from the times of the Babylonians and perhaps had access to devices such as the planetary calculation device found on the mediterannean floor. The constellations and their processions would have been known already by these SMART Magi and thus the Southern Cross natural procession would have already been considered and rejected as they studied this extraordinary event...a fixed star...not moving in nightly time or by season.

They were apparently spiritual minded men and God honored their faith, winking at them through the brilliance of the star; though the jews of the land remained blind to the star’s significance! These gentile wisemen were allowed to find and worship their true KING OF KINGS while the Jews of Israel remained ignorant of His coming!

If this view marks me as a credulous simpleton...then may God pour more of that on me. For this is the true meaning of the star, that God was calling out not just for the Jews to return to his loving fellowship, but for the gentiles as well. The Magi may very well have been the first Gentile converts to Christ of our modern era(depends on where one sets the beginning of the church age)

So you scoff at my apparent credulous simplicity...perhaps I am suffused with it...but beware:”At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.” Matthew 11:25

Now go play with your wind up toys and I’ll go play with mine...and when it’s time, Father will call us all down for dinner!

56 posted on 12/30/2017 1:05:15 PM PST by mdmathis6 (Men and Devils can't out-"alinsksy" God! He knows where "all the bodies are buried!")
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