Posted on 08/14/2017 11:30:24 AM PDT by Kaslin
I did. They receive no more "subsidies" than other major business in the US.
Well, then we are finally in agreement on the original question - the entire energy industry receives subsidies, etc.
That would be news to me. Yes. I’d like to learn more. If you can point me to a reputable source, that’d be great.
And if your house catches on fire, don’t expect the firemen to go up on your stupid electrified roof!
I it was true, it would be news.
There is so much to comment on about the original argument of the article.
Costs of home solar vary dramatically. I recently put 12KW PV on the roof. I have battery backup and a NG generator. Electricity costs .11 per KW, today. Tomorrow that cost may go up. Because I have battery backup ( a very large battery bank that will last a couple weeks) and a generator I probably spent more than I had to. My system will pay for itself in about 10 years. I’m out of pocket about $28,000. With the governments help I was able to get $40,000.00 worth of solar maybe a little more. When the sun doesn’t shine for several days I just get some of the electricity I sent to the grid, back. The Electric company holds it for me. They charge some sucker who wants clean electricity extra money for using my green electricity and then give me back dirty electricity, like I care?
I did do all my labor, it was somewhat difficult, not for everybody but I went overboard too. Not having a battery backup and a generator would nearly cut the cost in half making a 5 year payback. If you plan to stay in your house for a long time, free electricity is a pretty nice thing to have. It isn’t .15 per KW it’s free after 5 years.
I have no particular wish to pollute but don’t really think that making electricity for me creates much pollution but if someone else thinks it does then I look pretty good.
When a storm comes and the neighbors lights go off I don’t even notice, my system switches to battery in about one tenth of a second, the lights don’t usually have time to even flicker. The TV and computers don’t even notice the difference. The AC doesn’t even stop, it just keeps on going like nothing was changing.
If you don’t have a battery backup however when a storm comes your out, of course you can still use a backup generator but you must be very careful to isolate your system from the grid or you could kill someone.
I think having the government subsidy is stupid but I felt I would be stupid if I didn’t take advantage of it. I’m not sure I would have done it without the tax credit.
It is really fun to have free electricity though, well, it will be free some day.
When I've looked into this, the break even point on the initial investment is farther into the future than the life cycle of the equipment, considerably so.
Taxing gas/oil companies less is not a subsidy. Writing solar/wind companies a check is.
Are you a democRat?
So your neighbors unwillingly subsidized your system, and the true break even point is closer to 25 years. You'll be replacing things long before then. So the electricity will never be "free".
When I’ve looked into this, the break even point on the initial investment is farther into the future than the life cycle of the equipment, considerably so.
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I can’t imagine where you have looked. Most of the equipment, certainly the PV panels themselves are warranted to make 85% of their power for 25-30 years depending on the manufacturer.
It should be easy to get a 10 year pay back for most people if you are willing to most of the installation yourself. Double that if you pay someone else to do it.
I looked for years before finally deciding to do it. It took the better part of a year to get it completed but I learned lot.
Every year the Photovolatic Panels get better and more efficient and also cheaper.
I installed 16KW of inverter but now have found I didn’t need that much, I probably could have gotten by with half with good management. The problem is air conditioning, it really uses a lot, when my A/C is on it adds 5KW to my usage. If the A/C is on at the same time as the electric dryer I’m already over 8KW without anything else running. I could have timed things so that both wouldn’t run at the same time but I just decided I didn’t want to change my lifestyle so I jumped up to 16KW. I don’t worry about the wife drying clothes while the a/c is running and she is also baking a pie and cooking dinner, we can handle it all with or without the grid. The feeling of independence is a good feeling.
So your neighbors unwillingly subsidized your system, and the true break even point is closer to 25 years. You’ll be replacing things long before then. So the electricity will never be “free”.
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Actually, I pay taxes. I paid for the equipment up front. I now have a tax credit. My neighbors aren’t paying for any of it. I’m just paying less taxes. The government is already borrowing (counterfeiting) $.41 out of every dollar they spend already. I don’t suppose you take any deductions and make your neighbors subsidize what you do?
Most of my equipment is warranted well past the payback period, so yes my electricity will be free. I spoke to one fellow who has the same brand inverters I have and he has been using them for over 18 years. He lost a fan one time but it only cost a few dollars to replace.
Better than free electricity is that I don’t have to worry about storm or other outages when my neighbors will be coming over to take a hot shower or get a cold drink or even to get some ice, though I think that will go pretty quickly.
As far as what the true break-even point is, you install a system and then perhaps you will be qualified to talk to me about costs.
Actually, I pay taxes. I paid for the equipment up front. I now have a tax credit.
Same argument for Tesla buyers. It is still the government picking winners and losers in the market place. Without it very few, including you I suspect, would choose these products.
Glad you're happy with it. I've actually thought about it because I live in the middle of nowhere in the Rockies. I do need my furnace to run in the winter. Winter storms at 10k feet are hard on the power grid soetimes.
I did commercial HVAC/controls for a living. I looked at this 10-12 years ago. Invariably the break even was 20 to 30 years on these systems. Longer than the life cycle of the panels, if everything went well. So the best you could do is recoup the costs. You can do marginally better than the average person, since you were able to do the install.
Actually, I pay taxes. I paid for the equipment up front. I now have a tax credit.
Same argument for Tesla buyers. It is still the government picking winners and losers in the market place. Without it very few, including you I suspect, would choose these products.
Glad you’re happy with it. I’ve actually thought about it because I live in the middle of nowhere in the Rockies. I do need my furnace to run in the winter. Winter storms at 10k feet are hard on the power grid soetimes.
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First, I did HVAC on a nuclear submarine, while I didn’t exactly do it for a living I did it to keep us living. :)
You need to price solar panels again, a lot has changed in only 10 years, a lot. Good panels can now be had for under $1.00 per watt. I bought a lot, 10 years ago you would pay several dollars a watt and be lucky to get much more than a 100 watt panel. I got 325 watt panels and there are even better deals now after only a little more than a year. I over bought so that in 30 years when I have only 85% of my original production I will still have plenty, although I don’t really expect to be here in 30 years.
There is much much more to consider than break-even. The security of always having power, the security of knowing that no matter how much electricity costs you have all you want.
Now taxes, I am supposing you do not deduct the interest on your home mortgage? I am supposing you didn’t take the deduction for children? You see we all take advantage of what is to offer. I didn’t take any deduction for interest, I didn’t have any. I didn’t take any deduction for children, they’ve been gone a long time. There simply is no difference. The government wants you to buy a house so they offer a tax incentive, they what you to have children so they offer a tax incentive. It is not different from the incentive for solar, the government, that is us by the way, our representatives want us to do solar so they offer an incentive. I took it and don’t feel the slightest bit more guilty than you should feel for taking your interest deduction. If I was a representative in Congress I would vote against incentives for solar, I think it is stupid, either it pays its own way or it doesn’t. If it is worth the cost people will buy it if it isn’t people won’t, I wouldn’t have, not yet anyway.
As far as marginally better price for doing the work yourself, having someone else do the install doubles the cost and doubles the break-even point. If someone else installs it you do have the same security and guarantee against rising energy costs however.
Yep, less reliable, more maintenance, noise etc. With alt energy, solar is the only way to go. Of course it is not mature enough to fill all power needs but that is inevitable with technological progress.
Of course. But look at the subsidies per kWh. The highest is nuclear. Solar is second highest. Oil and gas are subsidized way less per kWh. Coal is a bit higher than oil and gas.
I care. I am paying full retail price for your unreliable electricity delivered at off peak times in winter. In summer your electricity is a better deal and worth closer to retail.
But if I have a choice (and I don't) I would buy the reliable fossil for 4 cents per kWh instead of your unreliable 11 cent power. My view on that holds for Virginia where my coop gets screwed by net metering. If I lived in the desert SW I would support buying your power with net metering.
Don't worry, the next owner will toss your panels in the landfill and get new ones. Solar is always a bad bet in hindsight. Your system with batteries (what kind?) is nicer than the usual system. But my AGM batteries are expensive and can't support hot showers or anything close to that.
Your system with batteries (what kind?) is nicer than the usual system. But my AGM batteries are expensive and can’t support hot showers or anything close to that.
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I managed to get 4 sets of 36 volt batteries (Enersys Desert Hogs) for tow motor, otherwise known as fork lift truck. Anyway each of the three batteries consist of 18, 2 Volt cells. They are each about 30” or so high and 1125 Amp hours each. That is a 20 hour rate. Since I use at a much lower rate it raises the capacity rating quite a bit.
I took the 4 batteries apart and made 3, 48V batteries out of the 72 cells. So now I have 3, 48V batteries at 1125A each or 3375A total. That is a lot of storage. If I don’t use the Air Conditioning it will last several weeks, using the A/C however it will only last about a week and a half before I have to run the generator to get it charged back up. Running the gen for electricity is much more expensive than just getting it from the grid. I don’t usually use the battery. Batteries have a short useful life, 5 to 7 years if you take them down to 50% every day, I don’t think I will ever take mine below 80%, at that rate I should be able to get at least 15 years out of them. Since I don’t really use them at all as long as I keep them fully charged and equalize them every now and then they should last much longer than me.
AGM’s are expensive and to purchase enough to run your whole house for more than a few hours would be prohibitively expensive, several 10’s of thousands of dollars.
I got lucky, I have a customer who makes batteries, they had a customer who went belly up after purchasing the batteries I now have them, my batteries are not brand new but close to it. They are charging like new. Since I don’t use them every day, not new was not important to me. I have enough solar to keep them charged even with my using them except on rainy days. Even on pretty cloudy days I make about 1/3rd of capacity which is usually enough to power all my loads and then some.
The going rate for electricity here is 11.5 cents. People who want only green electricity pay extra for it from the utility company. I think it is pretty stupid but I am glad to provide it, that way the utility company makes money off my investment. They charge me $10.00 a month to be my battery, I don’t like that but I like having the electric company as my battery. I give it to them when they need it the most during the day when I’m not home to use it and give it back to me at night after the sun goes down. In the long run the $120.00 a year is cheaper than using my batteries. Nobody is getting ripped off except the poor shlup who wants my expensive green electricity.
My system is more reliable than the utility company. Storms don’t bother me. It is the reliability I want more than anything. I am prepared for whatever happens and nothing ever happens then I’m still prepared to have cheap electricity, cheap electricity I like. When I croak that is one less bill my wife will have to worry about having to pay.
Solar is getting more and more cost effective. It is great now for the handy man otherwise it is a little premature to fool with.
Solar provides "free" electricity only if you ignore the time value of money. From an investment stand point, were you to have invested the same amount in a reasonably conservative stock fund, you could pay your electric bill with the earnings and at the end of 25 years would stall have the principal.
Solar provides “free” electricity only if you ignore the time value of money. From an investment stand point, were you to have invested the same amount in a reasonably conservative stock fund, you could pay your electric bill with the earnings and at the end of 25 years would stall have the principal.
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You’d be hard pressed to find a good investment that will pay back as much as your solar. I got out of the market because it was only keeping up with inflation, that better than nothing though. I put my money in real estate and it is doing well and I have my original investment with appreciation that is higher than inflation.
Inverters are a solid state device, they don’t have a known time between failures, in other words they should , properly protected, last forever. Batteries certainly do degrade. The more you use them the faster they go. The only way to make them last longer is have a lot more of them. The long term cost is likely about the same but you aren’t changing them out all the time. If you only allow yourself to discharge them 20% or less so that their SOC is never under 80% you may be able to triple their life.
Tanstaafl.
There ain’t no such thing as a free lunch.
You gotta pay for it no matter how you do it.
It’s a cloudy day here, the A/C is on and I’m still sending power to the grid. You gotta love it.
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