Posted on 01/10/2017 3:59:55 PM PST by Texas Fossil
you said:
“There is a long record of Assyrian and Armenian Christians serving with distinction in Iranian armed forces both before and after the Revolution.”
Neo-Janissaries
I think we may be closer than it seems.
I am not Persian or Iranian, but was in Iran before tge Revolution and stay in contact with exile Iranians in the West (they call themselves Persians in front of Americans, but among themselves they always call it Irani.)
My sympathies go to all decent Persians/Iranians, Kurds and Christians. I greatly admire Zoroastrian thought and the ancient culture of Iranic peoples (Persians, Kurds, Armenians)... ideally they all would abandon Islam forced on them by Arab invaders and return to Zoroaster or turn to Christ.
As to current events there... I am very pragmatic and realistic about the conflicts in the region.
I have no illusions about the (recognizable) motives and strategies by all sides involved.
Our real great enemy is Sunni Salafi Islamism sponsored by the Saudis. Whoever fights Sunni Salafi islamist jihadis has some of my sympathy. That includes Assad and Iran.
If it were up to me Assad, the Kurds, the Christians, Iran and Shia Iraq would come to terms (perhaps under Russian auspices) and peacefully create a future for the region.
Erdogan’s Turkey and the Sunni Arabs can either come to terms with this or pound sand.
Unfortunately there are so many (large and petty) interests involved on all sides that sow discord between parties that ought to have more common ground than reason for conflict.
Sorry, but to compare the Christians who fought in Iran’s armed forces (both under the Monarchy and the Islamic Republic) with the Ottoman Janissaries (kidnapped Christian children who were forcibly converted to Islam and trained to defend the Sultan) is unfair and shows a grwat lack of knowledge.
“ideally they all would abandon Islam forced on them by Arab invaders and return to Zoroaster or turn to Christ.”
That thought has been present and expressed by me.
Anywhere else in the world the nations involved would “make a deal” (like Trump does) and find a solution where all win without great bloodshed or destruction.
The reality is, Freedom is never negotiated. It is always won in battle. And price is never cheap, often measured in blood and lives. Always worth the cost.
Especially when considering that the elite Assyrian-Armenian Christian units in the 1920-30’s Iranian army were used to quell Islamist rebels... the very opposite of the Janissaries who were used to spread Islam’s realm.
I did not call them Janissaries I called them Neo-Janissaries.
Something that does not exist, but might be a relative term.
#25 pertains to #23 of course.
Did the release of these names and nations surprise you?
Mutaz Kanoglu – Turkey
David Scott Winer – USA
David Shlomo Aram – Israel
Muhamad Tamimi – Qatar
Muhamad Ahmad Assabian – Saudi
Abd-el-Menham Fahd al Harij – Saudi
Islam Salam Ezzahran Al Hajlan – Saudi
Ahmed Ben Naoufel Al Darij – Saudi
Muhamad Hassan Al Sabihi – Saudi
Hamad Fahad Al Dousri – Saudi
Amjad Qassem Al Tiraoui – Jordan
Qassem Saad Al Shamry – Saudi
Ayman Qassem Al Thahalbi – Saudi
Mohamed Ech-Chafihi El Idrissi – Moroccan
And the incidence of country.
As these Christian Iranian soldiers did not fight for the spread of Islam, were not converts to Islam, were not kidnappd children indoctrinated to serve the Sultan and indeed fought for their communities, their homeland and a secular modern Iran, to compare them in any form to the Jannisaries is unfair and not apropos.
“fought for their communities, their homeland and a secular modern Iran”
In that respect, I admit they were not the same.
Iran is currently anything but secular or modern (except when they are striving to acquire nukes)
Re #28
No, the list didn’t surprise me one bit.
Just as I expected/know the terrorist ‘rebels’ in Syria are tools used by Saudi/Turkey/Israel and US neocons in weakening the pro-Russia/Iran Assad.
Once I thought of:
Saudi - oil production (not territorial design)
Turkey- NATO ally Military Anchored Secular Muslim State
Israel- Reliable US ally, embattled functioning democracy
US neocons? #headshake #@$*!
Russia? hobbled by Communism (now is almost Business Mafia)
Syria? not even on radar
Now why is Syria on the radar? Because the other 4 want path for oil to drive their nation and to subject Europe by strangling it into subjection over time by cost of petro.
Why would the US back this action?
The POLs (neocon & ComDems) are bought by Saudi & Soros money. (probably a larger unseen group) No other explanation makes any sense. Nor does Obozo.
Headshake, I’m replying to myself. It is time for me to quit this.
—
Why would the US back this action?
The POLs (neocon & ComDems) are bought by Saudi & Soros money. (probably a larger unseen group) No other explanation makes any sense. Nor does Obozo.
Parting question?
What do the Shia & Sunni’s together as in this pic think of Obozo?
http://www.longwarjournal.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Soleimani-Muhandis-1-1024x592.png
God Help the US.
“Neo-Janissaries”
No. They served as did other Iranians who belong to religious minority groups to defend their homeland. Foreigners usually forget or don’t acknowledge the fact that most Iranians who aren’t muslim have lived in Iran for centuries too. So, it’s their country as well. In fact they could leave if they wanted to do so - they choose to stay.
I know you were referring to people who are non-Muslim that have always been in Iran. (but were subjected under Islam)
Let me remind you that Iran is more like Hotel California than about our perception of being free to leave. If the mullahs or their representatives think you will badmouth Iran, you will not leave.
Let me remind you of our hostages that were there 444 days when Peanuts was POTUS.
Let me remind you that the “kind mullahs” fully intend to destroy Israel. That kind of hate is totally incompatible to sane “leadership”. /sarcasm
Remember there are major exporters of global terror. And Obozo just approved sending them enough uranium to make 10 nukes.
Lol. Most exiles “badmouth” the political situation in Iran... and plenty well educated Iranians leave Iran each year.
I know of exile/emigre Iranians travelling back and forth without hassle. The situation isn’t as bad as some assume.
Leaving Iran for minorities is also no big deal if they want. But the roughly 250,000 Armenians and Assyrians prefer a safe life within their communities in Iran whete they live since many centuries.
Too many in the US have a grossly distorted cartoonish view of Iran today. They imagine it as a mix of the situation 1979/1980 and the Taliban. Much has occured since the Revolution and war.
The regime is oppressive... but on a much more subtle and “modern” way than neighbouring “medieval”/tribal
societies. Iran could be compared to the 1980’s European Communist systems. Relatively modern, advanced society but hampered by corruption and a political ideology, which has evolved since 1979, but nontheless is ossified.
In any case the hyper-agressive stance by Israel, Saudi Arabia and the US neocon chickenhawks has stabilized the system... people rally to the flag. Also they see the chaos in Iraq/Syria and prefer stability. Also they see that ultra-oppressive regimes like Saudi Arabia get a free pass and note the hypocrisy of Western support of Sunni islamist rebels.
Even pro-West Iranians have now second thoughts about the good intentions of the West.
“I know you were referring to people who are non-Muslim that have always been in Iran. (but were subjected under Islam)”
Yes, I was referring specifically to your comment about “Neo-Janissaries”. They were subjected to Islam which Arabs brought to the country. But that doesn’t negate the fact that since, when they fought wars for Iran, it was their choice to defend their homeland (country), not defend the mullahs or Islam. And, they are still free leave if they wanted to.
Today, the reality is that religious minorities not only are able to worship freely, but also are given special privileges in line with their religion, rituals and beliefs (which muslim Iranians do not have), such as drinking alcohol, eating pork, and enforce their own religious laws within their own communities in Iran. But, yes, they have to adhere to the broader laws of Iran, in Iran, under mullahs regime (which are Islamic and under the Shah were mostly secular laws). The same applies if you are a citizen or resident of a country like Australia. You have to abide by the laws of Australia, whatever those may be.
“Badmouthing Iran” (I assume you mean being critical of Iran) won’t get you in trouble in Iran. Being politically active against the regime of mullahs will. There is a difference.
I am not suggesting at all that Mullahs are responsible leaders. But if we want to talk about religious minorities, terrorism, Islamic laws, human rights and freedom, you have to put that in context of many other ‘Islamic lands” in that region.
I was pressed for time before, but now read all comments in this thread.
I know several Kurds. When I had a blog about Iran several years ago, quite a few were visiting and leaving comments regularly, especially for Kurd-related topics. As did a number of Israelis, Iranian-Armenians & Assyrians and Turks (from Turkey). The comments exchanged between most of the Turks and Kurds were most illuminating and often heated.
>>>”Also Note: Not all Kurds are the same. There are distinct differences between Kurds in Turkey, Kurds in Iran, Kurds in Iraq and Kurds in Syria. Not only by nation but by tribal groups it varies.”<<<
The key (historical) issues between Armenians and Assyrians, and the Kurds are:
1. The main culprit, historically & religiously speaking, for Armenian genocide and fuelling tension with Assyrians or Christians generrally, were the Turks, since before the Ottoman Empire.
2. Per Texas Fossil’s quote above, the Kurds are not and never been a single, homogeneous group of people. I mean that in its fullest sense. Although most are ‘officially’ Sunni-muslims (Christians and Jews are rare among them unless more recent converts), and most ethnically are “Iranic” & linguistically speak various *dialects* of the same Kurdish or “Iranic” language (a couple are very close to Persian language spoken in Iran), there is a Kurdish language called Zaza, which the Kurds only in Turkey speak, and it is much closer to Turkish than Indo-Iranian subgroup of languages.
3. As extension of point #2 above, different Kurdish groups hold different political ideology, ranging from ultra-Islamic (in Turkey, Iraq and Iran, but are in minority), to democratic-secular (mostly in Iraq, Iran & Syria - this is the largest group of Kurds in ideology), to more socialist such as PKK (mostly in Turkey - note their ideology has evolved over time - they were more communist leaning during USSR era).
4. During the Armenian genocide, it was only a small group of “ultra-Islamic” Kurds, who actually participated in the genocide, fuelled by Turkey and very much Islam-driven. Want to also note that these “Islamic” Kurds have fought other mentioned Kurdish groups, over the decades. Because the majority of Kurds are secular.
5. The reason KRG wants Christians and others to join and fight under the banner of Peshmerga is because, unlike Iran, Kurds do not and have not had a fully independent land or country of their own in modern history. The struggle and wars (with Assyrians too) has always been to acquire & retain their own land, not so much about religious ideology. Other than that, the Kurds have good relations with Christians and other religious groups.
Iran, OTOH, is a distinct, independent country, which has hosted a wide variety of ethnic, and religious groups (including Yazidis) for the past 2500 years. Most of whom are ethnically and linguistically Aryan (or I tend to call it Iranic).
The American public perception regarding the Kurds (at least in Iraq) is much more favourable, because they are promoted as US allies. The same goes for Afghan, Egyptian, Pakistani, Saudi Arabian, the Gulf states, and Jordanian regimes; none have a good human rights record, and almost all Islamic terrorists in the last 25 years have been from those countries.
The perception regarding Iran, OTOH, is that of the Mullahs regime, which isn’t a US ally - not the ordinary people of Iran, who rarely if ever engage in Islamic terrorism.
I agree with Solidwood when saying the American et al stance to nuke or bomb Iran and turn it into glass, especially after seeing rather unsuccessful US regime-change efforts in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya and Syria, with so many innocent people killed, countries destabilised and destroyed, does not generate confidence in many Iranian expats and the ones in Iran (regardless of their ethnicity or religion) that ANY US administration will do the right thing in Iran.
After all, it was a US administration (and its European & Islamist Arab allies) who supported the Khomeinist (Islamic) revolution, and threw a former US ally (the Shah) under the bus.
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