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On this "Natural Born Citizen" Issue, Part 1: From Alexander Hamilton to Lynch v. Clarke
Red State ^ | 5/21/2012 | Jake (Iron Chapman)

Posted on 08/20/2015 10:00:34 AM PDT by Laissez-faire capitalist

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Then there is the case that Bill O'Reilly referred to - SCOTUS (1985) - which he used later after debating Trump to show that children born to illegals aliens in the U.S. possess birthright citizenship. Court cases thus both before and after the 14th Amendment.

Few people want an open border, and I certainly do not want this, nor do I like it that there are anchor babies. Sealing the border, putting even more border patrol people and so on than Trump is calling for and ending birthright citizenship from here on is one thing (and may be possible), but saying that it is a fantasy that anyone ever born to illegals in the U.S. doesn't possess citizenship is to say that the citizenship they would now possess (be it even 30-40-50 years old) is null and void? That is the fantasy.

1 posted on 08/20/2015 10:00:34 AM PDT by Laissez-faire capitalist
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist; All

Just seal the border once and for all and put tons of people guarding it, basically what Sean Hannity and Bill O’Reilly have proposed. It may be possible to end birthright citizenship, though there is a long and lengthy precedent provided by Common Law even before 1788 that does not bode well for Trump.


2 posted on 08/20/2015 10:03:03 AM PDT by Laissez-faire capitalist
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist
Case law is moot in this argument.

All that matters are the words of the author of the citizenship clause of the 14th Amendment, Sen. Jacob Howard of Michigan.

He expressly said:
“This will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers.”

There, you will find the true meaning and intent of the citizenship clause of 14th.

3 posted on 08/20/2015 10:06:13 AM PDT by Bloody Sam Roberts (Democracy is not freedom. Democracy is simply majoritarianism. It is incompatible with real freedom.)
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

Marco Rubio, Nikki Haley, Bobby Jindal, Ted Cruz, and probably others.

Leaving aside the birth certificate issue, which is unique to Obama’s case... Obama is the only one who had a parent who was an American citizen at the time of his birth, his mother)

- - - - -

When he begins with a false claim, it is difficult to bother reading on.


4 posted on 08/20/2015 10:06:40 AM PDT by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

Rios-Pineda established only that the U. S. born child of an immigrant who had spent 7 years+ dealing with the authorities at the time (as the result of both legal and illegal suspensions) had the right to citizenship. But that citizenship was based not on the child’s birth in the USA but the time (7 years, the magic number for de facto citizenship in those days) the child had already spent in the USA. This has absolutely nothing to do with birthright citizenship. See: INS v. RIOS-PINEDA, (1985), No. 83-2032, Argued: March 20, 1985 Decided: May 13, 1985. [See more at: http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-supreme-court/471/444.html#sthash.8HG5TMl9.dpuf]).


5 posted on 08/20/2015 10:13:11 AM PDT by Mach9
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist
Mark Levin on 14th amendment

No one is suggesting retroactive application should a bill pass Congress. Steve King's current bill on eliminating birthright citizenship, HR 140 says:

The amendment made by subsection (a)(3) shall not be construed to affect the citizenship or nationality status of any person born before the date of the enactment of this Act.

6 posted on 08/20/2015 10:19:20 AM PDT by kabar
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist
but saying that it is a fantasy that anyone ever born to illegals in the U.S. doesn't possess citizenship is to say that the citizenship they would now possess (be it even 30-40-50 years old) is null and void? That is the fantasy.

That is not what is being proposed. No one is suggesting we strip citizenship from those that already have it. The proposed law change would change the requirements going forward.

7 posted on 08/20/2015 10:23:41 AM PDT by usurper (Liberals GET OFF MY LAWN)
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist
The New York Court of Chancery case Lynch v. Clarke (and Lynch) (Bernard Lynch v. John Clarke and Julia Lynch) from 1844 is one of the most prescient and important cases dealing with the matter .

Why on earth would we be discussing a state court case as regards Federal citizenship? Apart from that, the Legislature of New York overturned that verdict by passing new law which rendered that decision moot.

Lynch v Clarke is an interesting footnote in history, but it has no bearing on the salient point. The US Federal citizenship did not utilize English Common law. How could it? By English common law, rejecting your status as a subject of the king was strictly forbidden.

8 posted on 08/20/2015 10:26:36 AM PDT by DiogenesLamp ("of parents owing allegiance to no other sovereignty.")
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

40 million plus are already on this side of the wall having babies as fast as they can. What good is a wall going to do? Especially if there is a big gate in the wall sitting wide open held by both parties.


9 posted on 08/20/2015 10:29:17 AM PDT by TexasFreeper2009 (You can't spell Hillary without using the letters L, I, A, & R)
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

All the rhetoric from the author re:Joseph Storey et. al. are subject to the intention of the drafters ofvthe Fourteenth Amendment and articulation of the fact by the same that
the Amendment eas intended to specifically exclude foreigners from citizenship.

The fact that judges messed up decisions on the matter is not surprising or unusual.

We can fix this idiocy.


10 posted on 08/20/2015 10:33:51 AM PDT by amihow
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To: thackney

I heard a talk radio talker say that Trump sent guys to Hawaii. He said that Trump said that they found some amazing things. He wondered what those amazing things were and said that Trump never detailed them.

Just what are those amazing things discovered, if true?

Should Trump finally say something about this?


11 posted on 08/20/2015 10:36:16 AM PDT by Laissez-faire capitalist
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To: Bloody Sam Roberts

So Julia Lynch can now have her citizenship revoked even after all these years? Nope, not gonna happen.

And in a similar vein, are you going to argue that people born on U.S. soil to even illegals, even 1 or 45 years ago are somehow not U.S. citizens and that they can have their papers declared null and void? Good luck with that...


12 posted on 08/20/2015 10:38:29 AM PDT by Laissez-faire capitalist
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To: kabar

I went round and round with people yesterday. All I was arguing for was that all those born to illegals here cannot have their citizenship revoked. Ever. even if it was 1 week ago. Trump and Bill-O went round and round about this. Evidently Bill-O thought that there was some hint of people born to illegals here in the U.S. could have their citizenship stripped. Maybe he and Trump need to talk some more then based upon what you said...


13 posted on 08/20/2015 10:42:13 AM PDT by Laissez-faire capitalist
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To: DiogenesLamp

It does possess salience.

The point is, and continuing what I was saying yesterday - people born on U.S. soil cannot have their citizenship somehow revoked, even if they were born 1 week ago or 30 years ago or before 1844.

Some were arguing that children born to illegal aliens even recently were never citizens to begin with, and that is false.


14 posted on 08/20/2015 10:45:21 AM PDT by Laissez-faire capitalist
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To: thackney
Obama is the only one who had a parent who was an American citizen at the time of his birth, his mother

Cruz's mother was a U.S. citizen as well.

15 posted on 08/20/2015 10:45:40 AM PDT by DoodleDawg
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To: thackney
The part you clipped bothered me more.

...the main sticking point for the Birthers is that all four of the politicians have at least one parent who was not born in America...

Where the parents were born was never an issue. What mattered was whether they became citizens before the child was born.

-PJ

16 posted on 08/20/2015 10:45:40 AM PDT by Political Junkie Too (If you are the Posterity of We the People, then you are a Natural Born Citizen.)
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To: amihow

So you are against what some are saying who agree with me? They agree with me that you cannot retroactively revoke the citizenship of those born to illegal aliens. Ever.

Some argued yesterday that they were never citizens to begin with, and that is false. This was the point of contention that I addressed and still am addressing.

All children born to illegals who are 90 years old even or are 1 minute old as of this post ARE U.S. citizens.


17 posted on 08/20/2015 10:48:25 AM PDT by Laissez-faire capitalist
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist; RIghtwardHo; cripplecreek

Here we continue on with this:

Those born to parents on U.S. soil long ago (parents who even showed no inclination in becoming U.S. citizens (and those born 90 years ago or even 1 minute ago as of this writing) to illegal aliens cannot have their citizenship taken away.

And yet some yesterday acted as if their citizenship could be taken away, or that they never had it in the first place. Fantasy on their part...

Oh, how I went round and round with them yesterday on this point, which was my point of contention.


18 posted on 08/20/2015 10:52:21 AM PDT by Laissez-faire capitalist
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

We’ve got people here who are descended from grandparents who were illegal aliens. They aren’t going anywhere.


19 posted on 08/20/2015 11:00:26 AM PDT by cripplecreek (Pride goes before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall.)
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist
The point is, and continuing what I was saying yesterday - people born on U.S. soil cannot have their citizenship somehow revoked, even if they were born 1 week ago or 30 years ago or before 1844.

Legally they can, but politically they can't. I very much doubt anyone is suggesting tossing out people who had claimed citizenship under the false doctrine, I expect it would be intended to deal with new cases going forward.

Some were arguing that children born to illegal aliens even recently were never citizens to begin with, and that is false.

No, that is not false, that is quite true, but till we make it explicit in law, we will get constant grief from Liberal Judges over it.

Even if we make it explicit, I suspect a bunch of Liberal judges will simply defy the law as they are so accustomed to doing.

20 posted on 08/20/2015 11:00:55 AM PDT by DiogenesLamp ("of parents owing allegiance to no other sovereignty.")
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