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With Ukraine in turmoil, Hagel canít get Russian counterpart to take his calls
Washington Times ^ | 4-25-2014 | Maggie Ybarra

Posted on 04/25/2014 12:27:40 PM PDT by tcrlaf

Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel has been unable to get Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu on the phone amid escalating tension near the country’s shared border with Ukraine.

Mr. Shoigu announced Thursday that Russia planned to engage in a new series of military exercises near the Ukraine border. The military move, he said, is in response to ongoing NATO training exercises in Poland and the death of at least two pro-Russia insurgents in eastern Ukraine.

Army Col. Steve Warren, a Pentagon spokesman, told reporters Friday that Mr. Hagel has been trying to communicate with Russian officials but has yet to hear back from Mr. Shoigu or anyone else. Pentagon officials have reached out to Russia on Mr. Hagel’s behalf within the past 24 hours, according to Col. Warren.

“We have made it clear to the Russians that Secretary Hagel is available for a phone call at any time,” he said. “We have reached out to them and made it very to them that he is willing to speak to his counterpart there at any time.”

(Excerpt) Read more at washingtontimes.com ...


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; Front Page News; Government; News/Current Events; Russia
KEYWORDS: cia; hagel; putinsbuttboys; russia; shoigu; ukraine
The Russians don't want to hear from Hagel? I can't imagine why....

Meanwhile, CNBC was calling for Obama to come up with a "Military Option" for this situation. Are they nuts????

1 posted on 04/25/2014 12:27:40 PM PDT by tcrlaf
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To: tcrlaf

If you want respect, you got to earn it.

All over again.

Because the previous Administrations of the US Federal Government once had this respect, and it was acknowledged all over the world.

But the Current Regime has drizzled it completely away, all in the name of wanting to be “loved”.

So they have ended up neither loved nor respected.


2 posted on 04/25/2014 12:34:44 PM PDT by alloysteel (Selective and willful ignorance spells doom, to both victim and perpetrator - mostly the perp.)
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To: tcrlaf
Hey Chucky, when the phone don't ring you know it's Sergei.

Hey Chucky, here's a quarter, call someone who cares.

3 posted on 04/25/2014 12:34:45 PM PDT by AU72
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To: tcrlaf

“Meanwhile, CNBC was calling for Obama to come up with a “Military Option” for this situation. Are they nuts???? “

Military options are perfectly fine for liberals. They only don’t work when conservatives use them.

Liberals love a great war...as long as they entered us into it.


4 posted on 04/25/2014 12:36:45 PM PDT by Gen.Blather
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To: Gen.Blather

I’ve been following some of the lib websites like Kos, and some of the more radical ones.

They have been calling for blood (from military attacks to outright murder)from the beginning of this, for the dire Russian crime of dissing Obama.

It’s a reminder of just how nuts the people running today’s Democrat Party really are.


5 posted on 04/25/2014 12:41:07 PM PDT by tcrlaf (Q)
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To: AU72

“Hey Chucky, when the phone don’t ring you know it’s Sergei.”

I wonder what Hagel’s FSB profile file looks like?


6 posted on 04/25/2014 12:42:30 PM PDT by tcrlaf (Q)
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To: tcrlaf

What?

Do they know what the Russian force doctrine is? Is the Crimea worth a nuke on New York?


7 posted on 04/25/2014 12:48:07 PM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: tcrlaf

Mr. Shoigu is . . . . busy.


8 posted on 04/25/2014 12:51:42 PM PDT by Genoa (Starve the beast.)
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To: alloysteel

Excellent post.

In this world you have to say what you mean, and mean what you say. Empty talk soon becomes very dangerous.

Weakness invites aggression. Always has, always will.


9 posted on 04/25/2014 12:55:38 PM PDT by Starboard
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To: tcrlaf

What is Hagel going to do?

Invade Russia? I can’t see why on earth Russia has to pick the phone when he calls.

The Americans should restrain the Maidan regime. But I can imagine Shoigu doesn’t want to hear a lecture from Hagel about Russia not living up to its commitments.


10 posted on 04/25/2014 12:56:48 PM PDT by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives In My Heart Forever)
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To: tcrlaf

Sounds like some ringers here.


11 posted on 04/25/2014 12:57:15 PM PDT by Psalm 144 (FIGHT! FIGHT! SEVERE CONSERVATIVE AND THE WILD RIGHT!)
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To: tcrlaf

I haven’t seen too many liberals calling for military action at all. I’ve seen most of the leftist agree with Obama’s weak, feckless foreign policy. They justify and excuse it.

The hawks on this seem to be the McCain’s and Graham’s of the world. Same people that were most excited about bombing Syria.

Much as I don’t particularly care for McCain or Lindsey, I do find myself on the hawkish side of foreign and defense policy, and it concerns me that this libertarian isolationist streak is developing within the party. I am not so sure letting Russia gobble up parts of Ukraine is, regardless of whether you think the coup govt in Kiev is good or bad, a very good idea.

I also don’t believe Russia is really particularly strong. I think Putin is playing a masterful hand with a pair of two’s. They’ve upgraded their military and perhaps 20% of it is 1st world now, but I am not even convinced they could hold any part Ukraine outside of the immediate east.

I think Putin is a thug and has once again pulled the Russian people away from any chance they had for a workable democracy. I wouldn’t mind finding a way to bloody his nose here. If that takes sending weapons to Ukraine, I’d consider it - especially if Russia went for the whole enchilada (all of Ukraine). I think outside the east (and even in parts of the east), the Ukrainians would bleed Russia via guerrilla/partisan actions until they withdrew. I’d be all for helping them with equipment and arms.

Unfortunately we have idiot Obama in office and, whatever your views on this, I think we can all agree he has ensured the world has no respect for us at all.


12 posted on 04/25/2014 1:00:49 PM PDT by Longbow1969
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To: tcrlaf

Russian Gestures — How to Speak, Eat and Drink with the Russians
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uSw_JC_xOw

Funny Jokes About Russians
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjhPIw1kmIc


13 posted on 04/25/2014 1:17:46 PM PDT by familyop (We Baby Boomers are croaking in an avalanche of corruption smelled around the planet.)
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To: tcrlaf

I wouldn’t take Hagel’s calls either.

He’s a loser.

If Russia invades, what is the US under this bunch gonna do? Seriously?

It’s always funny when Peaceniks and anti-war activists try to talk tough.


14 posted on 04/25/2014 1:19:43 PM PDT by Tzimisce
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To: tcrlaf

Sounds as if the US under this cockamamie Administration has amateurishly wandered right up to the brink of war.

My hope is that FR folks use judicious and wise use of their words on FR, at least until we are past what appears to be coming.


15 posted on 04/25/2014 1:20:41 PM PDT by Resettozero
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To: tcrlaf

Hagel will have to go out in front of the cameras like Rodney Dangerfield used to do and say “I don’t get no respect, no respect....”

Seriously, the whole strategy right now is containment.

The Ukrainians being advised by guys like Hagel are limiting their military action to avoid a massive Russian response.

The Ukrainian operations are right out of the Robert McNamara playbook, the Donald Rumsfeld playbook.

The Russians are being held back like the Communists in Vietnam were 50 years ago and the Taliban and Al Quaeda were in Afghanistan in the W Bush era. There was no desire for a “wider war” with nuke countries like the Soviets and or Pakistan.

George Patton and Douglas MacArthur aren’t in charge of the situation, here.

I tend to think we should stay out of this situation since it would only humiliate this country to be a loser if we get in.


16 posted on 04/25/2014 1:45:21 PM PDT by Nextrush (AFFORDABLE CARE ACT=HEALTHCARE INDUSTRY BAILOUT ACT)
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To: Nextrush; All

“Seriously, the whole strategy right now is containment. The Ukrainians being advised by guys like Hagel are limiting their military action to avoid a massive Russian response.”

I see it as the exact opposite...
The phone lines from Washington are likely on fire, demanding action, that the Ukrainians “Do Something!!!”

Immediately after Hagel’s visit, they announced an attack on the pro-Russians that ended embarassingly.

Immediately after Biden’s visit, they announce another offensive that gets repelled, and causes Russia to start rattling sabres.

This has become a world-wide embarrassment for Obama, as well as impacting the larger efforts the Saudi’s have been pushing of Energy Geopolitics. They want ACTION for their money.


17 posted on 04/25/2014 2:08:20 PM PDT by tcrlaf (Q)
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To: tcrlaf

I don’t think that, “Don’t you know who I am?”, is going to work for Hagel in this situation.


18 posted on 04/25/2014 2:21:07 PM PDT by BigEdLB (Now there ARE 1,000,000 regrets - but it may be too late.)
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To: tcrlaf

If the Russians move into eastern Ukraine there will be some sanctions but nothing other than defensive military steps by the US-NATO.

The traditional strategy is to contain, not destroy and defeat enemies. Its been that way with a bipartisan foreign policy by our leaders since WW II.

Like Don Rumsfeld said not too many years ago, this war on terror is not like WW II, its a “new kind of war”.li

No total victory like the kind we got over Germany and Japan in WW II.


19 posted on 04/25/2014 2:30:34 PM PDT by Nextrush (AFFORDABLE CARE ACT=HEALTHCARE INDUSTRY BAILOUT ACT)
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To: redgolum
"Do they know what the Russian force doctrine is? Is the Crimea worth a nuke on New York?"

The answer to the first question: to advance, huff, puff and gesture like southwestern Europeans while making threats, then retreat.

Answer to the second question: there will be no "nuke on New York," so the question was invalid. Russia might be capable of physically launching a few before seeing all of its ground positions destroyed, and anything that made it into the air would be destroyed before reaching us.

Much propaganda has been issued about weapons capabilities of Russia and the West. All that Russia can do in its new effort to conquer the world is to try to win enough hearts and minds in the West to try to affect western politics. Not surprisingly, they've seen more success with that in recently convincing some Baby Boomer and Gen-X Americans (spoiled rotten).


20 posted on 04/25/2014 2:43:51 PM PDT by familyop (We Baby Boomers are croaking in an avalanche of corruption smelled around the planet.)
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To: AU72

Sergei is too busy right now—getting the invasion planned—there is a lot of work to getting right and Mr. Putin doesn’t think much of failure!


21 posted on 04/25/2014 2:56:22 PM PDT by Forward the Light Brigade (Into the Jaws of H*ll)
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To: alloysteel

There’s that and I guess I wouldn’t take his call either. The man’s a dunce and just doesn’t seem to know anything I want to talk about. God bless caller ID. In his frequent mumblings he hasn’t said a bleeping thing of consequence. And ain’t he the guy who submitted the Vet benefit cuts to Congress? BTW-—does the Kenyan even talk to him?


22 posted on 04/25/2014 5:05:07 PM PDT by cherokee1 (skip the names---just kick the buttz)
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To: tcrlaf

“Meanwhile, CNBC was calling for Obama to come up with a “Military Option” for this situation. Are they nuts????”

Its CNBC thinking thou what they put on the air isent part of their job description.


23 posted on 04/25/2014 7:34:18 PM PDT by Monorprise
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To: tcrlaf

“I’ve been following some of the lib websites like Kos, and some of the more radical ones.

They have been calling for blood (from military attacks to outright murder)from the beginning of this, for the dire Russian crime of dissing Obama.”

For liberals their dear leaders are everything to them.

Think if we could get a Conservative to run as a minority Liberal democrat.


24 posted on 04/25/2014 7:36:22 PM PDT by Monorprise
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To: familyop

“Answer to the second question: there will be no “nuke on New York,” so the question was invalid. Russia might be capable of physically launching a few before seeing all of its ground positions destroyed, and anything that made it into the air would be destroyed before reaching us.”

That is nonsense, if Russia launched all its missiles at us, we would only be able to shoot down a few of them. The rest would hit somewhere in the ‘general’ vicinity of their targets.

As for Crimea, I have no problem with letting the Russians have it. Its not like it makes a difference to us. Until the 1950’s Crimea was part of Russia as it had been by that point for about 170 years.

Furthermore it actually means something in Eurasia that most of Crimea’s population is ethically Russian.


25 posted on 04/25/2014 7:43:22 PM PDT by Monorprise
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To: Monorprise
"That is nonsense, if Russia launched all its missiles at us, we would only be able to shoot down a few of them. The rest would hit somewhere in the ‘general’ vicinity of their targets."

Only lefties have claimed that our several levels of ABM defense systems are useless. Most enemy weapons would be hit on the ground by current rotations in the air. Cowering from enemy threats is not a good defense answer. It's a traitorous answer.


26 posted on 04/25/2014 8:52:18 PM PDT by familyop
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To: Longbow1969

Of course this isn’t the feared Soviet Army. But it doesn’t have to be. Most of Europe’s Armies are demilitarized.


27 posted on 04/25/2014 9:04:45 PM PDT by MinorityRepublican
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To: Monorprise
"As for Crimea, I have no problem with letting the Russians have it. Its not like it makes a difference to us."

That's what many said against getting involved in WWI and WWII. The consequences and casualties from acting so late were heavy. Russia has been threatening to invade Ukraine, running feints on the eastern border and playing other little games.

Putin accused Poland of being behind the ousting of his agents in Ukraine. We're watching to see if the Russian government will follow up the threats with some action, or if it's only comedy relief like their occasional Bear bomber feints and retreats in our northwest (see funny noises made by propellers).


28 posted on 04/25/2014 9:23:12 PM PDT by familyop
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To: Monorprise

“As for Crimea, I have no problem with letting the Russians have it. Its not like it makes a difference to us.”

As for Monoprise, I have no problem with allowing Big Government to expunge his rights of freedom. It’s not like it makes a difference to our freedom.


29 posted on 04/25/2014 9:30:08 PM PDT by rbmillerjr (Russians to the Left of me, Useful Idiots to the Right...)
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To: tcrlaf

“We have made it clear to the Russians that Secretary Hagel is available for a phone call at any time,”

Pathetic,,


30 posted on 04/25/2014 9:30:36 PM PDT by DesertRhino (I was standing with a rifle, waiting for soviet paratroopers, but communists just ran for office.)
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To: familyop
Only lefties have claimed that our several levels of ABM defense systems are useless.

Whether the commentator is right, left, or in-between, a sudden launch of ICBMs could only be met with retaliation, with very few of the initial missiles interdicted in any way.

31 posted on 04/25/2014 9:41:49 PM PDT by steve86 (Acerbic by nature not nurture)
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To: steve86
"Whether the commentator is right, left, or in-between, a sudden launch of ICBMs could only be met with retaliation, with very few of the initial missiles interdicted in any way."

There are quite a few different kinds of equipment in the various layers of ABM defense, and they're computerized. As for retaliation, it's already very close to the enemy.


32 posted on 04/25/2014 11:04:09 PM PDT by familyop
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To: Longbow1969

20% of Russian forces being 1st world equals about 190,000 men able to be deployed right now with logistical support in place.
We can counter that right now how?


33 posted on 04/26/2014 6:41:59 AM PDT by bill1952 (taxes don't hurt the rich, they keep YOU from becoming rich.)
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To: familyop
and anything that made it into the air would be destroyed before reaching us.

That is so completely wrong its frightening. Study up on current nuclear doctrine and Rand studies

34 posted on 04/26/2014 6:46:46 AM PDT by bill1952 (taxes don't hurt the rich, they keep YOU from becoming rich.)
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To: tcrlaf; therightliveswithus

No problem, Hagle can use the social media like our stateless department to contact Sergei Shoigu and Putie. Then, warn them of a severe HashTag if they don’t respond.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/3148959/posts

State Department: Twitter, “Promise of Hashtag” Can Stop Russia from Invading Ukraine
Pundit Press ^ | 4/26/14 | Aurelius

Posted by therightliveswithus

In what might be the worst sign of weakness yet from the Obama Administration and its followers concerning the crisis in Ukraine, on Thursday the State Department put forward the idea that “hashtags” on Twitter could prevent Russia from invading Ukraine.

“The world stands #UnitedforUkraine,” began Jennifer Psaki, the current spokeswoman for the State Department. She continued, “Let’s hope that the #Kremlin & @mfa_russia will live by the promise of hashtag.”


35 posted on 04/26/2014 10:01:45 AM PDT by Grampa Dave ( Herr Obama cannot divert resources from his war on Americans!)
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To: tcrlaf

“Stop me before I hashtag again!”


36 posted on 04/26/2014 10:02:40 AM PDT by dfwgator
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To: tcrlaf

Hey, Hagel!!! Yeah, you...Hagel!
You can always send em a tweet....LMAO!!!


37 posted on 04/26/2014 10:55:13 AM PDT by lgjhn23 (It's easy to be liberal when you're dumber than a box of rocks.)
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To: familyop

“Only lefties have claimed that our several levels of ABM defense systems are useless. Most enemy weapons would be hit on the ground by current rotations in the air. Cowering from enemy threats is not a good defense answer. It’s a traitorous answer.”

Weapons are only destroyed on the ground if we have a leader who is willing and able to act fast enough. Obama is no such leader by any stretch of the imagination.

We will be lucky if Obama even fires back after 3 weeks of UN deliberations regarding the nuking of half our cities.


38 posted on 04/26/2014 11:13:42 AM PDT by Monorprise
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To: familyop

“That’s what many said against getting involved in WWI and WWII. The consequences and casualties from acting so late were heavy. Russia has been threatening to invade Ukraine, running feints on the eastern border and playing other little games.

Putin accused Poland of being behind the ousting of his agents in Ukraine. We’re watching to see if the Russian government will follow up the threats with some action, or if it’s only comedy relief like their occasional Bear bomber feints and retreats in our northwest (see funny noises made by propellers).

Putin is making strategic moves to acquire territory and expand Russian influence.

Playing the west west’s ain’t war stupidity to its limits. Putin will make slow gains here and there, but he won’t start a war with the west, and if he does he will quickly back out with a settlement.

In the end Russia gains territory and the economic influence that comes with it while the west settles for peace.

Putin can do this as long as the west, is unwilling to back up their words and play serous poker. With Europe that line is probably the border of Actual EU member states. With theses united States under Obama it is probably just a little closer to Russia but not far from Europe’s line.

In the end Russia knows they can settle anywhere and still end up with more than they started with. Then in 5 years they can do it all again.


39 posted on 04/26/2014 11:22:18 AM PDT by Monorprise
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To: rbmillerjr


As for Monoprise, I have no problem with allowing Big Government to expunge his rights of freedom. It’s not like it makes a difference to our freedom.”

Ukrainians are not our countrymen, we have no compact of mutual defense of their rights. If we did then we would be apliged to go and defend it.

As it is however wether Russia owns Crimea(AS Russia did for most of the last 230 years) or the Ukraine does it will make very little difference in Crimena.

In an ideal world the people of Crimea should be able to vote on their fate. But this id not an ideal world so all we are going to get is the “referendum” Russia carried out.

This is of course morally no different than the one the so called ‘union’ carried out occupied Virginia (Modern day West Virginia) during the ‘Civil war’. Our Federal Government thus has no legs to stand upon in insisting otherwise.


40 posted on 04/26/2014 11:30:41 AM PDT by Monorprise
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To: bill1952
"That is so completely wrong its frightening. Study up on current nuclear doctrine and Rand studies"

Some organizations are more concerned with libertine social trends and international, civilian idealism. Others design and produce hardware. It's understandable, though, that reading much lefty bilge can induce irrational fears. What's more, nuclear conflict is survivable for for the vast majority--even soldiers.

The West has been saturated with nonsense about hypothetical nuclear exchanges since the '80s (not to mention the political games played about feminism, queer-ism, etc.). And no, the West is not getting rid of useful weapons. Lifelong civilians and rear echelon folks have isolated from realities with pretty, televised hogwash for a long time except for the few, who pay closer attention to the tangible and physical (hardware, for one).

What's wrong is encouraging expansionist enemies by rhetorical cowering and allowing them to invade other countries. That's what will quickly lead to nuclear exchanges. Criminals refuse to consider consequences, though, and don't care about what happens tomorrow. They only care about getting paid today.


41 posted on 04/26/2014 2:21:42 PM PDT by familyop
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To: Monorprise
"Weapons are only destroyed on the ground if we have a leader who is willing and able to act fast enough. Obama is no such leader by any stretch of the imagination.

We will be lucky if Obama even fires back after 3 weeks of UN deliberations regarding the nuking of half our cities.
"

He's a civilian at heart and in experience. He's only along for the ride. I reckon Ivan already sees the traffic overhead, just as Charlie does. There's nothing they can do about it but complain and be blowhards.


42 posted on 04/26/2014 2:26:27 PM PDT by familyop
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To: Monorprise
"Putin is making strategic moves to acquire territory and expand Russian influence.

Playing the west west’s ain’t war stupidity to its limits. Putin will make slow gains here and there, but he won’t start a war with the west, and if he does he will quickly back out with a settlement.

In the end Russia gains territory and the economic influence that comes with it while the west settles for peace.
"

That and the rest of the same comment: very well said. Agreed.

With no large physical action imminent, Obama and his political associates here and in other NATO nations can retreat through diplomacy, which may be more dangerous for us in the near future (foreign buildups and intentions). And yes, that's what expansionist nations want.

But expansionist nations sometimes go through with conventional, physical surprises. Allowed to do so again, the situation will intensify and buildups everywhere will follow. But that's happening now, which leaves the question: are time, economics and morale on their side or ours? It appears that we are flunking in morale and economics at the least.


43 posted on 04/26/2014 2:38:51 PM PDT by familyop
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To: bill1952

Our most encompassing and general doctrine is this: losing is unthinkable. That knowledge is no secret, although many folks adverse to defense like to ignore it. No socio-political organization is going to change that, although such entities may get nods to abominable, civilian social doctrines in socio-political circles and media—pretty much what the weirdos and manhaters receive.


44 posted on 04/26/2014 2:53:18 PM PDT by familyop
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To: Monorprise

“Ukrainians are not our countrymen, we have no compact of mutual defense of their rights. If we did then we would be apliged to go and defend it.”

You miss the point. Completely.

The US and NATO are not going to fight in Ukraine. That doesn’t make Russia’s illegal annexation and provocations and more accepted as naked aggression and Hitler-like steamrolling of weaker nations.

If it is none of our business and acceptable for Russia’s big Govt. to do this, it is entirely acceptable and none of our business when the US big govt. steamrolls the rights of our citizens.

Your contention that Crimea should vote on it’s fate is absurd. It is the sovereign territory of Ukraine. Russia illegally annexed it and it has nothing to do with voting.


45 posted on 04/26/2014 10:02:24 PM PDT by rbmillerjr (Russians to the Left of me, Useful Idiots to the Right...)
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To: tcrlaf
Why won't they take our calls? One word:

FLEXIBILITY

When Vlad heard that word he *knew* he was dealing with a weakling.And still not a *word* of apology to either Governor Palin *or* Governor Romney for having clearly told Osama Obama what Vlad was all about.

Hey,Obama...it's the 1930's on the phone...they want their policy of weakness and appeasement back.

46 posted on 04/27/2014 7:55:39 AM PDT by Gay State Conservative (Stalin Blamed The Kulaks,Obama Blames The Tea Party)
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To: rbmillerjr

““Ukrainians are not our countrymen, we have no compact of mutual defense of their rights. If we did then we would be apliged to go and defend it.”

You miss the point. Completely.

The US and NATO are not going to fight in Ukraine. That doesn’t make Russia’s illegal annexation and provocations and more accepted as naked aggression and Hitler-like steamrolling of weaker nations.”

I don’t know where you been living all your life, but
1: Their ain’t no law between nations, therefore their ain’t no lawbreakers between nations.
2: Country’s only tend to get involved in the affairs of other nations if they see something in it for themselves or at least their leaders, or they are obligated by treat to do so.

As far as I know we ain’t got no treaty obligating us to defend the Ukraine. The Ukraine is not a member of NATO. So unless we got some pressing need to keep Russia out of the Ukraine I don’t see how its worth our time and money trying to stop them.
The cold war is over, russia isent commuist anymore, at least no more than the Federal goverment is.

“If it is none of our business and acceptable for Russia’s big Govt. to do this, it is entirely acceptable and none of our business when the US big govt. steamrolls the rights of our citizens.”

As a matter of note when the Federal Government steamrolls over our rights No foreigner is going to raise a finger to help us unless that Foriginer;
A) Has something to gain by Bashing the US and
B) Is not afraid of Washington’s reprisals.

If we needed their help we would have find a way to make it in their interest and probably compromise Washington’s ability to intimidate them out(As Washington did during the ‘Civil War’).

“Your contention that Crimea should vote on it’s fate is absurd. It is the sovereign territory of Ukraine. Russia illegally annexed it and it has nothing to do with voting”

Well now its a “Sovereign Territory” of Russia and there need not be any voting. You obviously have a very different understanding of Sovereignty than I do. I say legitimate Sovereignty ultimately belongs to the people that live there, who they associate with is their legitimate choice. There is no “Magical” organization that owns the Ukraine, its simply the people that live in the Ukraine ultimately down to the smallest governable community.


47 posted on 04/27/2014 10:07:30 AM PDT by Monorprise
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