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Russia offers proposal to resolve Ukraine crisis
The Guardian ^ | Friday 25 April 2014 08.29 EDT | Julian Borger, diplomatic editor, and Dan Roberts in Washington

Posted on 04/25/2014 9:14:33 AM PDT by FreeReign

Foreign minister Sergei Lavrov says pro-Moscow militants will lay down arms if Kiev clears occupied square and buildings.

The Russian foreign minister, Sergei Lavrov, appears to have offered a deal to resolve the crisis in eastern Ukraine, suggesting that if the country's government clears out the nationalist protest camp in Kiev, then pro-Moscow separatists will lay down their arms.

Western officials greeted the proposal with scepticism, noting that such confidence-building measures were at the heart of an international agreement reached last week, but which failed to end the separatists' occupation of public buildings in eastern Ukraine. They said the protest camp in Independence Square in Kiev, erected in February during the uprising that toppled the Russian-backed president, Viktor Yanukovych, was already being dismantled.

The Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe, which is monitoring the situation in Ukraine, reported that its team in the capital "observed the ongoing clearing of barricades in the Maidan square".

"The situation in the capital city was calm," the report added.

One western official raised the possibility that Lavrov might be seeking to use the dismantling of the camp as a face-saving way out of the crisis, but cautioned that there were few other signs of compromise from Moscow.

(Excerpt) Read more at theguardian.com ...


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; Front Page News; Russia
KEYWORDS: kiev; lavrov; putin; russia; ukraine
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1 posted on 04/25/2014 9:14:33 AM PDT by FreeReign
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To: FreeReign

Uh huh. How can Russia negotiate on behalf of people they have no affiliation with.


2 posted on 04/25/2014 9:18:00 AM PDT by Bogey78O (We had a good run. Coulda been great still.)
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To: FreeReign

Russia is just doing a little rebranding in E. Ukraine. Now the bus station drunks with AK’s are a “self defense” force instead of “pro-russian separatists”.


3 posted on 04/25/2014 9:21:45 AM PDT by lodi90
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To: Bogey78O
Uh huh. How can Russia negotiate on behalf of people they have no affiliation with.

Yup.

And I would add that most of the non Russian affiliates, what small number they were, seem to be losing interesting and leaving the protests.

4 posted on 04/25/2014 9:22:25 AM PDT by FreeReign
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To: FreeReign

Do the Putin Shuffle:

Entreat
Retreat
Cheat
Repeat


5 posted on 04/25/2014 9:23:25 AM PDT by samtheman
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To: FreeReign

http://www.wnd.com/2014/03/soros-heavily-invested-in-ukraine-crisis/


6 posted on 04/25/2014 9:26:26 AM PDT by Sacajaweau
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To: FreeReign
Russia offers proposal to resolve Ukraine crisis

If it doesn't involve burning George Soros and Victoria Nuland at the stake I don't want to hear about it...

7 posted on 04/25/2014 9:30:41 AM PDT by varmintman
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To: Sacajaweau

Pictured: The Puppet and the Puppet Master.

If you look closely you can almost see George "I sold poor Jews out to the Nazis" Soros pulling Barry's string.

Putin might a bad guy, for some reason or another according to the Corporate Media, but he inst installing Globo-Marxist puppets into my government that are wrecking my country RIGHT NOW and bankrolling a Global-Marxist agenda that is steamrolling my country RIGHT NOW.

8 posted on 04/25/2014 9:37:25 AM PDT by Count of Monte Fisto (The foundation of modern society is the denial of reality.)
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To: FreeReign

That has been Russia’s position from the day the Geneva Accords were signed. Lavrov has said exactly that, several times.

Disarm Right Sector, and Russia will disarm the separatists.

IMO, I don’t think the Ukraine government can disarm them, even though the Rada passed a resolution to do exactly that. They are Svoboda’s strength, and the armed enforcers of the coup government.


9 posted on 04/25/2014 9:46:29 AM PDT by tcrlaf (Q)
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To: Sacajaweau

Pierre Omidyar’s Omidyar Network is also heavily involved, along with USAID, and the Soros Group’s Renaissance Foundation.


10 posted on 04/25/2014 9:50:23 AM PDT by tcrlaf (Q)
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To: Bogey78O
Uh huh. How can Russia negotiate on behalf of people they have no affiliation with.

LOL! That's what I was thinking.

"Not that we have any control over the Russ .. I mean, free-thinking, Ukrainian citizens occupying those buildings."

11 posted on 04/25/2014 9:52:25 AM PDT by VeniVidiVici (Play the 'Knockout Game' with someone owning a 9mm and you get what you deserve)
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To: tcrlaf

Disarm Right Sector, and Russia will disarm the separatists.


How can Russia disarm separatists if they have nothing to do with them?


12 posted on 04/25/2014 9:54:17 AM PDT by lodi90
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To: VeniVidiVici

If this goes much farther, Russia will claim that Ukraine invaded and annexed its territory.


13 posted on 04/25/2014 9:55:08 AM PDT by 1rudeboy
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To: lodi90

Sashko was “Bus Station Drunk”?


14 posted on 04/25/2014 9:58:01 AM PDT by tcrlaf (Q)
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To: FreeReign
Here's a solution where nobody gets hurt.

The red part becomes Wset Russia. The Euro Weenies can have the blue part.

15 posted on 04/25/2014 9:58:29 AM PDT by McGruff (Clinton had his Kosovo, Obama has his Ukraine.)
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To: McGruff
Here's a solution where nobody gets hurt. The red part becomes Wset Russia. The Euro Weenies can have the blue part.

Here's a simple solution: Folks in Eastern Ukraine don't want to be part of Russia.

16 posted on 04/25/2014 10:08:02 AM PDT by FreeReign
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To: FreeReign
When Russia proposes things they know won't be accepted (or feasible) that's not a good sign.

17 posted on 04/25/2014 10:13:00 AM PDT by Genoa (Starve the beast.)
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To: FreeReign
Folks in Eastern Ukraine don't want to be part of Russia.

Oh really. Creation of sovereign republic declared in Donetsk.

18 posted on 04/25/2014 10:15:04 AM PDT by McGruff (Clinton had his Kosovo, Obama has his Ukraine.)
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To: McGruff; FreeReign

Some do, some don’t.


19 posted on 04/25/2014 10:18:53 AM PDT by Genoa (Starve the beast.)
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To: FreeReign
Folks in Eastern Ukraine don't want to be part of Russia.

To be fair, about 1 in 3 do.

20 posted on 04/25/2014 10:21:16 AM PDT by 1rudeboy
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To: Genoa; McGruff; 1rudeboy
Some do, some don’t.

Most don't.

Link

21 posted on 04/25/2014 10:24:55 AM PDT by FreeReign
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To: 1rudeboy

Sort of like Texas.


22 posted on 04/25/2014 10:25:23 AM PDT by Genoa (Starve the beast.)
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To: FreeReign

What about their troops LEAVING Ukraine?


23 posted on 04/25/2014 10:33:07 AM PDT by SeekAndFind (If at first you don't succeed, put it out for beta test.)
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To: McGruff

Eastern Ukraine is being totally manipulated by Putin’s KGB-FSB and gangsters. there’s no “spontaneous uprising”, just Russian thugs intimidating the local population.

It’s no coincidence that the eastern part has the coal mines and industry - Russia has been greedily eyeing this area for a long time.


24 posted on 04/25/2014 10:36:58 AM PDT by canuck_conservative
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To: FreeReign
"...the possibility that Lavrov might be seeking to use the dismantling of the camp as a face-saving way out..."

All in favor of no longer uttering Polish jokes and telling Russian jokes instead...?

NATO Army: Poland (Poland)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqyiKpPFVwM

NATO 2014 - Message to Russia,China,N.Korea,Iran (Deutschland, U.K., France, Turkey, U.S.A.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPgN6UMfHlI

Sweden wants cruise missiles 'for defence'
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/3148281/posts

Aye!


25 posted on 04/25/2014 11:42:57 AM PDT by familyop (We Baby Boomers are croaking in an avalanche of corruption smelled around the planet.)
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To: McGruff

Too many oil/gas pipelines run thru West UK for that kind of split to last long——I expect that split is just a way-point for where Pootin would like to go.


26 posted on 04/25/2014 12:42:20 PM PDT by cherokee1 (skip the names---just kick the buttz)
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To: lodi90

Last chance to avoid war—Ukraine should take it before the T-90s roll.


27 posted on 04/25/2014 12:47:18 PM PDT by Forward the Light Brigade (Into the Jaws of H*ll)
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To: Bogey78O

“Uh huh. How can Russia negotiate on behalf of people they have no affiliation with.”

Russia has had a long affiliation with the people and territory of Crimea.

Just 50 years ago that territory and population were part of Russia proper as it had been sense 1784. The largest share of the population is Ethic Russian not Ukrainian, and of course until the 1990’s all of it was part of the USSR.

One could say with some accuracy that Russia has stronger ties to Crimea than does the Ukraine.


28 posted on 04/25/2014 3:52:20 PM PDT by Monorprise
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To: canuck_conservative

“Eastern Ukraine is being totally manipulated by Putin’s KGB-FSB and gangsters.”

The same thing happened in West Virgina during the ‘civil War’ yet West Virgina is still a separate state than Virginia. Washington has no ground to stand upon there.


29 posted on 04/25/2014 3:54:33 PM PDT by Monorprise
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To: Bogey78O

“Uh huh. How can Russia negotiate on behalf of people they have no affiliation with.”

That depends upon how you define affiliation, if you do it th eway we do it in North America then the Russians were just owners of Crimea for most of the last 230 years. (up until just the 1950’s in fact)

However if you look at it the way Eurasians typically do with the eyes of ethnicity and language then Russia would point out that Crimea is 60% Russians and only 24.0% Ukrainians

Russians: 1.45 million (60.4%),
Ukrainians: 577,000 (24.0%),

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Crimea

That doesn’t mean much to us, but it does mean a lot to them.


30 posted on 04/26/2014 11:39:06 AM PDT by Monorprise
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To: FreeReign
Was it the Commanding General of the 101st Airborne,while under siege in France (or Germany).who responded to a German General's demand to surrender with the word "nuts"?

That's what Reagan would be say to Vlad right now.

31 posted on 04/27/2014 7:23:32 AM PDT by Gay State Conservative (Stalin Blamed The Kulaks,Obama Blames The Tea Party)
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To: Monorprise

“One could say with some accuracy that Russia has stronger ties to Crimea than does the Ukraine.”

Yes. People who speak with very little accuracy and spout Russian propaganda.

If this were the case, Russia would not have had to illegally annex the Crimea.


32 posted on 04/28/2014 3:48:40 AM PDT by rbmillerjr (Russians to the Left of me, Useful Idiots to the Right...)
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To: rbmillerjr

“Ukraine crisis, rbmillerjr wrote:
“One could say with some accuracy that Russia has stronger ties to Crimea than does the Ukraine.”

Yes. People who speak with very little accuracy and spout Russian propaganda.”

I don’t pretend to know a lot about Crimea or Russia, I just know in the last 230 years Crimea has only been part of The Ukraine for the last 60, and Russia for the rest. I also know that demographically 60% of the Population of Crimea identifies themselves as Ethic Russian while less than 25% see themselves as Ethic Ukrainian. Theses are not numbers or History the Ukraine even disputes, nor do they in themselves indicate the wishes of the people of Crimea which I regard as the Primary concern in which Federation they should be a part of.

But short of a legitimate vote on the matter in Crimea I don’t see any resolving of the question of who should legitimately own Crimea, and in any case it is not worthy of either our attention or money. Like it or not this sort of thing happens all the time thou-out human history and in all places in the world.

If we want to enforce some standard upon the world, the blood and treasure never mind lack of moral right would bankrupt us.

“If this were the case, Russia would not have had to illegally annex the Crimea.”

Im unaware of any clause in Russian law that makes annexing Crimea illegal. Admittedly of course I know little of Russian law, but such a thing is not something I would expect to find in Russian law. Such a breach of Russian law is in any event their business.

IF we wish to get involved we should find something of interest and value enough to us to be worth getting involved. The morality of Russians actions notwithstanding.


33 posted on 04/28/2014 3:44:22 PM PDT by Monorprise
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To: FreeReign; dfwgator
Russia offers proposal to solve Ukraine crisis

просто. проблема решена

34 posted on 04/28/2014 10:50:13 PM PDT by Cronos (Obama’s dislike of Assad is not based on Assad’s brutality but that he isn't a jihadi Moslem)
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To: McGruff
Your map is not that simple. Crimea was majority ethnic Russia, but what you have mapped as Eastern Ukraine is not majority Russian. It has Russian speakers, who are large, but not a majority in all states and also the Russian speakers can be Ukrainian as well.

Donetsk Oblast is the most pro-Russian, but Kharkhiv and Luhask are close behind. Odessa and others are definitely mixed.

35 posted on 04/28/2014 10:54:13 PM PDT by Cronos (Obama’s dislike of Assad is not based on Assad’s brutality but that he isn't a jihadi Moslem)
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To: Monorprise

that was Crimea. We’re talking about Donetsk, Odessa, Kharkhiv now and it’s not as “simple” as Crimea


36 posted on 04/28/2014 10:56:08 PM PDT by Cronos (Obama’s dislike of Assad is not based on Assad’s brutality but that he isn't a jihadi Moslem)
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To: rbmillerjr; Monorprise
rb --> I believe Russia could have easily gotten about 60% of the vote in an honest plebiscite, maybe even 80% of the vote (as many Ukrainians there are Russian speakers and also have fallen for Mosowite propaganda fanning flamboyant fascist fears)

Ukraine and Russia are also ethnically, linguistically and historically very close, very close indeed.

37 posted on 04/28/2014 10:58:40 PM PDT by Cronos (Obama’s dislike of Assad is not based on Assad’s brutality but that he isn't a jihadi Moslem)
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To: Monorprise; rbmillerjr
I just know in the last 230 years Crimea has only been part of The Ukraine for the last 60, and Russia for the rest

Well, all of ukraine was "Russia" for a lot of time, as was Belarus, lithuania, Finland, Poland etc. -- that's not a valid argument

Crimea was going to go to Russia no matter what

NOW, the problem is the east and south of Ukraine which has some people who call themselves ethnic Russian and many who call themselves ethnic ukrainian but speak Russian at home

It's not that simple

38 posted on 04/28/2014 11:00:47 PM PDT by Cronos (Obama’s dislike of Assad is not based on Assad’s brutality but that he isn't a jihadi Moslem)
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To: Cronos

“Ukraine and Russia are also ethnically, linguistically and historically very close, very close indeed.”

Russia is not illegally annexing because of close cultural, linguistic, or historical ties. Russia seeks the naval yards and a land bridge via E.Ukraine to the said naval yards.


39 posted on 04/28/2014 11:23:01 PM PDT by rbmillerjr (Russians to the Left of me, Useful Idiots to the Right...)
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To: Monorprise

“Im unaware of any clause in Russian law that makes annexing Crimea illegal.”

One of the dumbest things I’ve ever read on FR. Russian law does not supersede Ukrainian law. Crime was sovereign land of Ukraine. Period end of story. Russia took it illegally.

“Such a breach of Russian law is in any event their business.”

Of course, it is Ukrainian law that is valid in this issue. And that is no business of Russia.


40 posted on 04/28/2014 11:27:48 PM PDT by rbmillerjr (Russians to the Left of me, Useful Idiots to the Right...)
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To: Cronos

“rb —> I believe Russia could have easily gotten about 60% of the vote in an honest plebiscite, maybe even 80% of the vote (as many Ukrainians there are Russian speakers and also have fallen for Mosowite propaganda fanning flamboyant fascist fears)
Ukraine and Russia are also ethnically, linguistically and historically very close, very close indeed.”

I honestly believe Russia would have lost the vote for transfer. But in the same breath I acknowledge that the question is academic and I don’t really care about the outcome either way.


41 posted on 04/29/2014 3:05:25 PM PDT by Monorprise
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To: rbmillerjr

““Im unaware of any clause in Russian law that makes annexing Crimea illegal.”

One of the dumbest things I’ve ever read on FR. Russian law does not supersede Ukrainian law. Crime was sovereign land of Ukraine. Period end of story. Russia took it illegally.”

So we are talking about Ukrainian law... Well I can’t say im going to cry a river over one country violating the laws of anther with it’s army in war.

This is the sort of thing that just goes with the territory of War.

““Such a breach of Russian law is in any event their business.”

Of course, it is Ukrainian law that is valid in this issue. And that is no business of Russia.

On this We agree, Ukrainian law is apparently no business of Russia’s. lol


42 posted on 04/29/2014 3:09:47 PM PDT by Monorprise
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To: Monorprise

If a conservative has no problem with a sovereign country being violated by the coercive use of force of a government, which is the biggest of Big Govt., they are really no conservative at all.

And there protestations of government intrusions into domestic concerns are not genuine.


43 posted on 04/29/2014 4:53:01 PM PDT by rbmillerjr (Russians to the Left of me, Useful Idiots to the Right...)
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To: rbmillerjr

“If a conservative has no problem with a sovereign country being violated by the coercive use of force of a government, which is the biggest of Big Govt., they are really no conservative at all.”

Actually a Government big enough to claim the right to impose its “law” upon all the world is the biggest government of all.

Russia may be a big government internally, it may even be imposing big Government on Crimea. But Russia is most notably NOT our government. Nor is Russia in a position to become our government. But following a policy of embracing a concept of “international law” that would require us to impose government on Russia IS to create the biggest government of all.


44 posted on 04/29/2014 4:58:18 PM PDT by Monorprise
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To: Monorprise

“Actually a Government big enough to claim the right to impose its “law” upon all the world is the biggest government of all.”

So, red is green and right is wrong in your little 84 Animal Farm.

The accepted international norm of NOT INVADING ANOTHER COUNTRY for the purpose of annexation is not imposing your will on anybody.

UR backasswards.


45 posted on 04/30/2014 12:22:15 AM PDT by rbmillerjr (Russians to the Left of me, Useful Idiots to the Right...)
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To: rbmillerjr

“The accepted international norm of NOT INVADING ANOTHER COUNTRY for the purpose of annexation is not imposing your will on anybody.”

Perhaps you should examine what your saying there.

You are proposing that we enforce what you call “international norm”.

To do that you had to:
A: Define such a Standard and declare it uniform across all nations with or without their consent.
B: Enforce such a standard upon any nation that doesn’t agree with or follow the rule you came up with, thus making it a rule/law rather than simply a ‘norm’.

That is an act of ‘international’ Government whether you like it or not.

“UR backasswards.”
Call me names all you like, but But I don’t approve of world government, and therefore also enforcing such a ‘governments’ concept of ‘international law’, wether you call that law a “international norm” or not. If you enforce it, it is not a “norm” but a rule/law.

Im sorry Russia and the Ukraine are not behaving in a way that you call “normal”. There is no law against that nor should there ever be so long as Both Russia and Ukraine are sovereign and independent states. They have the right to engage in war, as well as levy peace, conduct trade, ect...

What I see them doing right now is normal, as it has been done by countless nations thou out history.


46 posted on 04/30/2014 3:24:27 PM PDT by Monorprise
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To: Monorprise

“That is an act of ‘international’ Government whether you like it or not.”

No, that is hyperbole on your part. Accepting international norms of civilized behavior, such as NOT INVADING OTHER SOVEREIGN NATIONS FOR THE PURPOSE OF ANNEXATION, is NOT international Government.

It is a norm that has been accepted for some time. Nazi Germany was called out, the militarists in Japan, the communists in North Korea and the Soviet Union.

“They (Russia)have the right to engage in war, as well as levy peace, conduct trade, ect...”

But yet you hypocritically deny the right of other nations such as the US to respond, or an alliance of free nations to prevent such actions by a pathetic rogue nation such as Russia.

Why is it that historically despotic nations have a “right” to do this but historically free nations are part of a grand conspiracy for world government overthrow when they attempt to prevent despots from putting their Jack Boots on the neck of people who wish to be free?

You conspiracy nuts have a silly double standard that speaks more to paranoia and delusion than principle.


47 posted on 04/30/2014 3:39:55 PM PDT by rbmillerjr (Russians to the Left of me, Useful Idiots to the Right...)
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To: rbmillerjr

“No, that is hyperbole on your part. Accepting international norms of civilized behavior, such as NOT INVADING OTHER SOVEREIGN NATIONS FOR THE PURPOSE OF ANNEXATION, is NOT international Government.”

It seems to escape you that the very concept of being independent and self-governing includes the ability to be what Other might call “uncivilized”. Althou the General idea is living by your own rules.

As for the reasons a country can make war, acquisition of resources and territory is historically the most common.

The U.S. has gone to war for this reason on a number of successful occasions.

“It is a norm that has been accepted for some time. Nazi Germany was called out, the militarists in Japan, the communists in North Korea and the Soviet Union.”

I suppose you never heard of the Treaty of Versailles which Nazi Germany was clearly violating, nor any of the other mutual defense treaties that obligated England and France to join the war when Poland was invaded.

That being said it is worth noting that the USA felt no such obligation, which was our sovereign right, to be used wisely or unwisely.

The Korean war was in fact a UN action, and as disagreeable as the whole affair turned out to be the US was involved because we felt stopping the advance of communism across the Korean pennesila was important to our own national interest. Vietnam Likewise. IT was Bush the first that tried to declare a new world order in which some country’s couldn’t invade other country’s for money. But this of course has been mostly ignored ever sense.

African countries invade each other for land and resources all the time as to country all over the world. In the 1980’s Russia was even then no exception with their various campaigns, namely Afghanistan, but there we once again felt a national interest to inhibit the Growth of Communism.

“But yet you hypocritically deny the right of other nations such as the US to respond, or an alliance of free nations to prevent such actions by a pathetic rogue nation such as Russia.”

I obviously don’t deny that the USA has a right to get involved. Of course we do. We also got a right to Invade Mexico and Canada for their land if we want it.(we did before).

I just don’t see how getting involved with the Ukraine war benefits us in any meaningful way worthy of the cost of getting involved.


48 posted on 05/01/2014 2:28:58 PM PDT by Monorprise
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To: Bogey78O
Uh huh. How can Russia negotiate on behalf of people they have no affiliation with.

Probably something to do with the strong pro-Russian sentiments shared by a majority of those living in east Ukraine.

49 posted on 05/01/2014 2:35:40 PM PDT by Drew68
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To: Monorprise

“IT was Bush the first that tried to declare a new world order in which some country’s couldn’t invade other country’s for money. But this of course has been mostly ignored ever sense.”

Conspiracy claptrap. Bush didn’t declare a “new world order” in the sense of your literal meaning. And sure sure, any country has a right to invade another. But there are internationally accepted norms violated that these are responded to.

Willful believers in Utopia will always attempt to appease first, but eventually they are responded to.

WWII Germany ....allies declare war
Japan Asian conquests...severe economic sanctions
Japan...US immediate war declaration
North Korea....immediate counter
NVietnam....advisors, eventually countered
Iraq...Kuwait invasion beaten back
Afghanistan....base of operations for AQ....invaded


50 posted on 05/02/2014 6:32:00 AM PDT by rbmillerjr (Russians to the Left of me, Useful Idiots to the Right...)
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