Cliven Bundy and 'Civil Disobedience': He might not have a legal case, but does he have a moral one?

American Thinker ^ | 04/17/2014 | Rick Moran

[SeekAndFind]

For more than 160 years, Henry David Thoreau's essay on Civil Disobedience has inspired Americans to "make known what kind of government would command his respect" so that we could live under that government in good conscience.

Ultimately, in a free society, that's all we have that is truly our own; our conscience. Following its dictates, says Thoreau, is the only rational way to live your life and be true to oneself.

It had been years since I read Civil Disobedience and I was surpised by how Cliven Bundy's words echoed many of the theses in the essay. Legal experts overwhelmingly agree that Bundy has no case - that his pronouncements about the land not belonging to the federal government and him not having to pay grazing fees have no basis in the law.

But how about a moral basis for Bundy's stand? Here, he's on firmer ground, as Thoreau painstakingly, and relentlessly shows:

Can there not be a government in which majorities do not virtually decide right and wrong, but conscience?- in which majorities decide only those questions to which the rule of expediency is applicable? Must the citizen ever for a moment, or in the least degree, resign his conscience to the legislation? Why has every man a conscience, then?

[knarf]

It’s the one the founders were counting on to make this thing work.

[Gaffer]

You ‘have a case’ as long as your ammunition holds out and how straight you shoot.

[Biggirl]

It could very well be a “flashpoint” event.

[Amagi]

Consider the people who are making these laws.
Are they honorable people, or lying crooks?
Do these law makers (especially the executive orders law maker, and the regulatory bureaucracy law makers) even have a good track record of abiding by the rule of law?
Are we heading to a total breakdown of society because of a corrupt criminal element operating in the federal government?

[x1stcav]

I may have become very simplistic in my old age but any citizen fighting the Feds is OK with me.

[babble-on]

the Sovereign Citizen movement is certifiably insane.

[bereanway]

Legal experts overwhelmingly agree that Bundy has no case - that his pronouncements about the land not belonging to the federal government and him not having to pay grazing fees have no basis in the law.*******

How can the federal government constitutionally hold huge swaths of land for an indefinite period of time for no enumerated purpose whatsoever? Totally undermines state sovereignty along with constitutional intent.

He has a moral as well as legal basis if the constitution is rightly interpreted.

[wastoute]

Civil Disobedience and passive resistance only works when there is a population with integrity and a media that is honest. Neither exists here. Beck and Rush, et. al. have to push these things ‘cuz the regime would arrest them for treason if they didn’t.

[wastoute]

As was posted elsewhere, the Warsaw Jews had no “legal case” either. We are beyond concern about legal cases, IMHO. When the gummint is lawless we would be foolish to constrain ourselves to their laws.

[BitWielder1]

The feds can and do change laws every day and thus makes their land grabs and whatever else they do legal in the eyes of said laws.
But is it moral to have one class of people who can invent laws for their convenience that all others have to live with?

There is a disturbing trend of Feds driving farms out of business, the Bundy ranch is but one example.
That is the bigger issue here.

[FlipWilson]

I love how the same lefties who were burning their draft cards in the ‘60’s are decrying this man’s actions as violating the rule of law in this country. “It is the law,” they say and he must obey it. And the draft wasn’t?

[Gaffer]

I don’t call carrying weapons to a ‘dispute’ passive resistance.

Frankly, I’m an old man, and I’d rather be out there in their face armed as not, regardless of knowing that our media is corrupt and that half of us have no honor or integrity.

There are damned few public figures I consider to have integrity and honor, and to equate Beck with Rush in any capacity just dilutes any discussion of it.

[Gaffer]

And we must further remember that a one President Carter gave all them Amnesty. Even someone named John Kerry. It is why his release from the Navy is dated in the late 70s instead of when he actually was separated.

It is why his SF171 was never released - because it likely was originally issued under less than honorable conditions.

[stevem]

Since the government, at every level, is at war, not with bad guys, but with our own citizens, what else is Clive Bundy and his ilk supposed to do?

Let's not pretend that we can beat the government if the Air force, Army and Marines back them up. Here's hoping they refuse.

Nevertheless, if we fight back, we can die free and not as slaves. Let's also never forget that Obama and his ilk are and justify being slave owners.

[Scoutmaster]

.

[SeekAndFind]

You were saying?....

[ZX12R]

Are we heading to a total breakdown of society because of a corrupt criminal element operating in the federal government?

We very well may be. No real Americans have ANY trust or sympathy for our current federal government. Most all of them are seen as crooks. There are a few republicans that aren't. There is a chill wind blowing through America at the moment, and it is full of anger and disgust.

[Scoutmaster]

I was bookmarking for possible comment later about the difference between the Law of the Land under the U.S. Constitution and the law of the land under Marbury v. Madison, whose progeny made constitutional what so many hold unconstitutional. I am headed out to lunch with another FReeper and to not have the time to make the comment now.

[Cen-Tejas]

Yes sir! You are correct and I would add that the Lis Wiels and Megan Kelly’s of the world who are constantly spouting “it’s the law”.....”it’s the law”.

Though they be lawyers Judge Napolitano strongly disagrees with them and argues that the legal issues are far from settled on many fronts.