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Cuts for military retirees costing GOP support for budget deal
Washington Post ^ | 16 Dec 13 | Josh Hicks

Posted on 12/16/2013 10:07:17 AM PST by SkyPilot

Edited on 12/16/2013 10:11:53 AM PST by Admin Moderator. [history]

GOP lawmakers and military groups have lined up against the bipartisan budget deal making its way through Congress because of a provision that would trim pay for young military retirees.

In a joint statement last week, Sens. Kelly Ayotte (R-N.H.), Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.) and Roger Wicker (R-Miss.) said they cannot support the legislation because it “disproportionately and unfairly targets those who have put their lives on the line to defend our country.”


(Excerpt) Read more at washingtonpost.com ...


TOPICS: Breaking News; Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: budget; military; senate; sequester
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
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On the Democratic side, Sen. Carl Levin (Mich.) offered hope that the military-retiree provision could be revisited after the bill is passed. He said in a statement last week that the Senate Armed Services Committee, which he chairs, would review the change next year, adding that “a number of concerns have been raised about the provision.”

Don't buy Levin's snake oil - he wants to "revisit" the betrayal of our men and women currently serving, and those who have served and survived - some time next year. The House jammed this through and skipped town. They want this carved into law so that they don't have to confront the crying veteran spouses who are alone with their children again this Christmas, wondering why their own government is attempting to harm them.

Paul Ryan was all over the television this weekend, defending his "deal." His statements were as amazing as they were jaw dropping. He admitted he wants to fund the Pentagon's bills on the backs of the very men and women who served. He also admitted this betrayal only "saves" the government $6 Billion over ten years, to a Federal Government that spends $10.46 Billion per day.

We spend $2.2 Billion a year now on ObamaPhones, and betraying our men and women in the military, saving $6 Billion over ten years - is a must have?

Ryan has lost his mind.

May his name forever be called "Benedict Ryan."


1 posted on 12/16/2013 10:07:17 AM PST by SkyPilot
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To: SkyPilot
Federal employees will have to contribute more to their pensions.

No doubt Patty Murray demanded in return a concession from the military.

What I find amazing is that we got no proposal for income tax hikes from the Democrats even with a socialist Senate and President. And no unemployment extension.

2 posted on 12/16/2013 10:13:30 AM PST by what's up
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To: SkyPilot

I wonder if Speaker John Boner thinks that “outside conservative” groups have unduly influenced every single Senator. Will he yell at the GOP Senators...


3 posted on 12/16/2013 10:15:29 AM PST by 11th Commandment (http://www.thirty-thousand.org/)
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To: what's up

RINO Season!


4 posted on 12/16/2013 10:15:31 AM PST by Steamburg (Other people's money is the only language a politician respects)
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To: SkyPilot

yeah Ryan, cut the military but give your f’ing staffers federal tax subsidy money to buy their insurance. you lying sack of feces.


5 posted on 12/16/2013 10:19:15 AM PST by Dick Vomer (democrats are like flies, whatever they don't eat they sh#t on.)
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To: what's up
New Federal employees will have to pay more, but the current ones were grandfathered.

When Ryan was asked why they didn't grandfather military who have already retired, or currently serving military, this is what he said yesterday:

But why not grandfather benefits for current servicemembers, like Ryan does for Americans over the age of 55 in his plan to reform Medicare? Ryan replied that grandfathering wouldn't achieve the savings the military needs...

This is the Republican "budget genius?"

6 posted on 12/16/2013 10:20:39 AM PST by SkyPilot
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To: SkyPilot

RINO Ryan is an idiot. Obama is running up trillions in new debt and Ryan wants to trim a little here and there, including cutting military pay. Go straight to hell, Ryan, you fricken turncoat!!


7 posted on 12/16/2013 10:25:51 AM PST by Jim Robinson (Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God!!)
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To: SkyPilot

Tommy

I went into a public-’ouse to get a pint o’ beer,
The publican ‘e up an’ sez, “We serve no red-coats here.”
The girls be’ind the bar they laughed an’ giggled fit to die,
I outs into the street again an’ to myself sez I:
O it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ “Tommy, go away”;
But it’s “Thank you, Mister Atkins”, when the band begins to play,
The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
O it’s “Thank you, Mister Atkins”, when the band begins to play.

I went into a theatre as sober as could be,
They gave a drunk civilian room, but ‘adn’t none for me;
They sent me to the gallery or round the music-’alls,
But when it comes to fightin’, Lord! they’ll shove me in the stalls!
For it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ “Tommy, wait outside”;
But it’s “Special train for Atkins” when the trooper’s on the tide,
The troopship’s on the tide, my boys, the troopship’s on the tide,
O it’s “Special train for Atkins” when the trooper’s on the tide.

Yes, makin’ mock o’ uniforms that guard you while you sleep
Is cheaper than them uniforms, an’ they’re starvation cheap;
An’ hustlin’ drunken soldiers when they’re goin’ large a bit
Is five times better business than paradin’ in full kit.
Then it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ “Tommy, ‘ow’s yer soul?”
But it’s “Thin red line of ‘eroes” when the drums begin to roll,
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it’s “Thin red line of ‘eroes” when the drums begin to roll.

We aren’t no thin red ‘eroes, nor we aren’t no blackguards too,
But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
An’ if sometimes our conduck isn’t all your fancy paints,
Why, single men in barricks don’t grow into plaster saints;
While it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ “Tommy, fall be’ind”,
But it’s “Please to walk in front, sir”, when there’s trouble in the wind,
There’s trouble in the wind, my boys, there’s trouble in the wind,
O it’s “Please to walk in front, sir”, when there’s trouble in the wind.

You talk o’ better food for us, an’ schools, an’ fires, an’ all:
We’ll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
Don’t mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
The Widow’s Uniform is not the soldier-man’s disgrace.
For it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ “Chuck him out, the brute!”
But it’s “Saviour of ‘is country” when the guns begin to shoot;
An’ it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ anything you please;
An’ Tommy ain’t a bloomin’ fool — you bet that Tommy sees!

Rudyard Kipling


8 posted on 12/16/2013 10:29:37 AM PST by BwanaNdege (Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable. J.F. Kennedy)
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To: SkyPilot

Having a little trouble with the non-logic in the drift of the story. Why WOULDN’T GIs be PO’d over cuts to their promised benefits? But no one is PO’d at dims——just GOP’s? I’m personally, individually, and with severe malice and prejudice PO’d at the whole gutless bunch. I’m having trouble finding anyone I can send money to that I can trust to vote against this big-spending krap. I’m 3,000 miles and 600 gallons of motor fuel away from the Beltway and so far that’s keeping those nimrods safe but lying, two-faced, double talking bullshix could whittle away my normal mild mannered, good natured sense of humor and tolerance for weak-kneed, halfassed ( think Ryan) performance.


9 posted on 12/16/2013 10:32:44 AM PST by cherokee1 (skip the names---just kick the buttz)
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To: All

Any time the republicans do anything, “Veterans Hardest Hit” is going to be the mantra of the left/media. This tactic has worked for every other voting block the democrats have gone after and it will probably work here as well. The republicans better learn to recognize this very early in any “negotiation” with democrats. Of course they won’t, and one day they will wonder how they lost the military vote.


10 posted on 12/16/2013 10:39:23 AM PST by TruthBeforeAll
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To: SkyPilot

Another crap sammich brought to you by the party of Socialist lite. DC needs to be shutdown till the debt is paid off.


11 posted on 12/16/2013 10:45:59 AM PST by VRWC For Truth (Roberts has perverted the Constitution)
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To: Jim Robinson

Im sincerely glad you cleared that up. Thanks, Jim.


12 posted on 12/16/2013 10:51:11 AM PST by Zuben Elgenubi (NOPe to GOPe)
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To: Zuben Elgenubi

Looks like the GOP-e Romneybots have completely destroyed a man with conservative potential.


13 posted on 12/16/2013 10:55:30 AM PST by Jim Robinson (Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God!!)
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To: what's up

“Federal employees will have to contribute more to their pensions.”

The difference is that only Federal Employee new hires will have to contribute more to their pensions, NOT current employees, and they will know this going in -— whereas, the military COLA cut is to the retirement benefits of those already drawing benefits, and those still serving, despite the promises that were made at the time they were earning those retirement benefits.


14 posted on 12/16/2013 10:56:12 AM PST by LTC.Ret (You'd think I would know better than to volunteer!!! www.sendmetocongress.us)
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To: cherokee1

How about helping to replace one incumbent Republican who voted for this bill -— please see below:

Dr Pam Barlow for Congress
Web: www.pambarlow.com
Email: DrPamBarlow4Congress@Reagan.com
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/DrPamBarlow4Congress
Twitter: https://twitter.com/DrPamBarlow


15 posted on 12/16/2013 11:00:22 AM PST by LTC.Ret (You'd think I would know better than to volunteer!!! www.sendmetocongress.us)
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To: SkyPilot
As I understand it, the adjustment to the military retiree pay doesn't go into affect until 2016. Also when the retiree turns 62 it plays catch-up. The past raises not given are given at that time.

I am a spouse of a military retiree under the age of 62. He is doing well at his second job. He does worry about the ones that don't do as well at the second job or retired at a lower grade after 20.

16 posted on 12/16/2013 11:00:29 AM PST by republicangel
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To: Jim Robinson

Pretty well covers it.


17 posted on 12/16/2013 11:03:00 AM PST by John W (Viva Cristo Rey!)
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To: SkyPilot

Why not dig up the graves at Arlington and sell the skeltons as novety items. Then turn the hillsides there into a high rise development overlooking that great idol in the most wonderful city on earth, The Capitol. We could raise a lot of money by doing that.


18 posted on 12/16/2013 11:04:45 AM PST by Portcall24
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To: what's up

As usual, bad publicity. The cuts affect only people under the age of 62 who are working another job.

You can retire after 20 years, and many people retire at the age of 40, get their full pension, and of course go on to a second career. This is also true in many civilian jobs, too (law enforcement, education, etc.).

Paying these employed people a “pension” takes money away from the elderly or from lifers, that is, people who actually stayed in the military or job until retirement age.


19 posted on 12/16/2013 11:09:58 AM PST by livius
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To: livius

The vast majority of retired military MUST go on to a 2nd career...the pension for many enlisted folks, going back decades, would not be enough for many to live on in this economy.

How do you propose an E7 retired in 2003 live on ~ $1200 a month in retirement income after taxes?

What you are proposing has been actually proposed in the past...that military retirees of “working age” (whatever the hell that is supposed to mean) do not collect their pension until they “retire” (retirement age to be decided by some cabal of REMF’s and useless political hacks). The underlying intent there is to hope that the vast majority die off before reaching that magical age.

Yeah, whatever...


20 posted on 12/16/2013 11:16:50 AM PST by SZonian (Throwing our allegiances to political parties in the long run gave away our liberty.)
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To: SkyPilot

So, as this wonderful “savings” of $6 billion is achieved on the backs of those who served 20+ years in uniform for this country, much more will be pissed away in favor of welfare checks, EBT cards and other incentives to unproductivity.

Ryan is showing how convenient life is for congressturds whose constituencies don’t include large numbers of military people.


21 posted on 12/16/2013 11:20:05 AM PST by ScottinVA (Obama is so far in over his head, even his ears are beneath the water level.)
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To: Portcall24
Why not dig up the graves at Arlington and sell the skeltons as novety items. Then turn the hillsides there into a high rise development overlooking that great idol in the most wonderful city on earth, The Capitol. We could raise a lot of money by doing that.

Good suggestion.

They could also bottle the tears of children and spouses who have to live year after year without their mom or dad because they are serving their 5th deployment to a combat zone, and sell the bottled tears to pay for ObamaPhones.


22 posted on 12/16/2013 11:22:37 AM PST by SkyPilot
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To: LTC.Ret

Replacing snivellers is exactly what I’m trying to do. And I start by asking simple questions. Simple. Emphasize simple. My own guy Walden voted for the current budget sellout. He’s been decent but on thin ice lately because of that genetic penchant for spending other peoples money. I asked the alleged conservative fella running against him how he would have voted on the current clusterflock. He gave me a heckuva detailed answer about how he didn’t like the bill but wouldn’t say that he’d vote against it. I told him the answer I was looking for is “NO “. So I haven’t written him a check either. Finding people who have passed math, logic, english, truth, and/or knowledge in general classes is difficult. People who run for public office seem to me to be what I call one-dimensional. With any luck they know one field sort-of. I’ll support the ones who are willing to learn, especially that the stuff the country is doing now is not sustainable and are willing to vote to eliminate krap, like , oh, say the EPA, for example, mostly und so vieter-————————Semper Fi


23 posted on 12/16/2013 11:27:51 AM PST by cherokee1 (skip the names---just kick the buttz)
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To: SZonian; ScottinVA; Jim Robinson
Check this news story that just came out today. I thought it was satire.....it isn't.

Schumer: Veterans Must Face Budget Cuts, Too

"They're going to have to pay a tiny, little bit into it, which they never have," he added. But Schumer maintained members of Congress should not be forced to take a pay cut. He said they have already sacrificed, since they have not seen a pay raise "in a long time," and explained most of them are paying more for healthcare insurance. "We (members of Congress) have taken pretty big cuts," he said.

The Retired Military Officers Association estimates the average military retiree will lose 20% of the value of their hard earned pension...something Chuck Schumer says is "just a little bit."

But, we are not cutting the hundreds of Billions that ObamaCare subsidies that we are just now learning are a ticking time bomb. We are not cutting the 75+ welfare programs that give money away with both fists.

We truly live in evil days.

24 posted on 12/16/2013 11:28:41 AM PST by SkyPilot
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To: livius

“You can retire after 20 years, and many people retire at the age of 40, get their full pension, and of course go on to a second career. This is also true in many civilian jobs, too (law enforcement, education, etc.).”

It’s a shame, isn’t it, that it’s so hard to get a pension of any kind in the non-governmental sector of the economy. The private sector said it costs too much and just bailed, leaving most of us facing a precarious old age. Nice to see that Washington continues to look after its own.


25 posted on 12/16/2013 11:31:29 AM PST by paristexas
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To: SkyPilot

When are they going to cut all the bloated obscene local government pensions?

Either that or it eventually chokes off what is left of private sector America.


26 posted on 12/16/2013 11:33:20 AM PST by dragnet2 (Diversion and evasion are tools of deceit)
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To: Jim Robinson

Time for a Bonus Army March II?


27 posted on 12/16/2013 11:33:56 AM PST by Covenantor ("Men are ruled...by liars who refuse them news, and by fools who cannot govern." Chesterton)
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To: TruthBeforeAll

It doesn’t help when so-called Conservatives conveniently “forget” that an INCREASE in military pensions is NOT a “cut” — anywhere but Washington, DC.

And really now! Why should the cost-of-living adjustment used to increase military pensions factor in over weighted “housing costs”? Or do you think military retirees buy new houses each and every year?

Obama’s trolls want to make Conservatives look just as selfish and grasping as “Progressives” are.

Let’s be smart enough to NOT play the role they’re trying to assign to us....


28 posted on 12/16/2013 11:36:06 AM PST by pfony1 (Add just 6 GOP Senators and we "bury" Harry)
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To: TruthBeforeAll

It doesn’t help when so-called Conservatives conveniently “forget” that an INCREASE in military pensions is NOT a “cut” — anywhere but Washington, DC.

And really now! Why should the cost-of-living adjustment used to increase military pensions factor in over weighted “housing costs”? Or do you think military retirees buy new houses each and every year?

Obama’s trolls want to make Conservatives look just as selfish and grasping as “Progressives” are.

Let’s be smart enough to NOT play the role they’re trying to assign to us....


29 posted on 12/16/2013 11:36:39 AM PST by pfony1 (Add just 6 GOP Senators and we "bury" Harry)
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To: LTC.Ret

OK, Colonel——I checked out the bio, great bio, but couldn’t find the answer. How WOULD Dr. Pam have voted on the Ryan/Murray budget clusterbunch? Answer only needs one word.——Semper Fi


30 posted on 12/16/2013 11:45:23 AM PST by cherokee1 (skip the names---just kick the buttz)
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To: cherokee1

Nay.


31 posted on 12/16/2013 12:13:46 PM PST by LTC.Ret (You'd think I would know better than to volunteer!!! www.sendmetocongress.us)
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To: SkyPilot

This vet went in for a number of complex reasons, but getting benefits for my service was never one of them.

Anyway, anybody old enough to go into the service ought to be old enough to know not to trust the promises of the government. Anybody who has served should have learned this in spades.

And quite frankly, what in the world’s with this retirement after twenty years thing? Go in at twenty, roughly, “retire” at forty?! Who the heck else retires at forty, and why? You retire when you get old - isn’t that it? Isn’t that what retirement is all about? At forty a Chief or Captain is too old to do his job? Is that it?

What a scam. Reminds me of the union mentality.


32 posted on 12/16/2013 12:13:49 PM PST by dagogo redux (A whiff of primitive spirits in the air, harbingers of an impending descent into the feral.)
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To: cherokee1

And the long version:

We all know that in Washington, a spending cut is just a decrease in the expected growth of Federal spending, not a true decrease in actual spending. What good are even those “spending cuts” if we brag about them one year and then effectively repeal them the next year? We continue to go deeper and deeper in debt as a country, stealing their futures from our children and grandchildren.

As we have seen in the last few days, Congress continues to pass bills that promise billions of dollars in spending cuts over the next 5-10-20 years, and then break those promises either in the next budget compromise, or by acting above the law and failing to implement the bill as passed. The Ryan-Murray Budget Compromise broke the spending cuts promised by the sequester, for a promise to cut spending somewhere else down the road.

As happily reported by the Center for American Progress, a Progressive think tank, “Many of the cuts that were legally made this year [by sequester] have not actually been implemented yet. The sequester cut $85 billion from the government’s budget authority in 2013 and will cut $109 billion in 2014 -— again, the sequester reduced actual outlays in 2013 by $42 billion, and in 2014, it is expected to reduce outlays by $89 billion.”

Plus, the compromise increased federal “fees” so they didn’t have to increase taxes -— believing, I guess, that Americans are too gullible to notice that the net is exactly the same as more dollars flow out of our wallets to the Washington spendthrifts.

They are spinning this one hard, but they can’t spin away what they have actually done.

I don’t think true Conservatives are falling for the sneaky Washington wordplay -— they are the ones who voted against this bill. But those who only claim to be conservative because it helps them keep getting re-elected are using deception to pick our pockets in order to fund their spending addiction. Incumbent career politicians need rehab, NOT re-election!!!

But the most egregious part of this compromise is that the military -— our soldiers and veterans -— were singled out to receive a cut in their promised retirement pay COLA, while current Federal employees and other Federal payment recipients, including Congress, will retain unchanged pay and benefits.

For all the reasons above and others, I could not have in good conscience voted in favor of this bill, and would have been a “Nay” in the final count.


33 posted on 12/16/2013 12:24:54 PM PST by LTC.Ret (You'd think I would know better than to volunteer!!! www.sendmetocongress.us)
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To: dragnet2

“When are they going to cut all the bloated obscene local government pensions?”

When they go bankrupt. Of course before that they will tax businesses and residents until they move out, leaving a desolate shell of a city. See Detroit.


34 posted on 12/16/2013 12:26:55 PM PST by Hugin
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To: LTC.Ret

Thanx, Colonel, I appreciate the effort. Paypal or mailing address?


35 posted on 12/16/2013 1:02:30 PM PST by cherokee1 (skip the names---just kick the buttz)
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To: SkyPilot

This part of the agreement really had me PO’d. They should NEVER touch military pay or benefits!! I don’t understand why Ryan thought this was in any way acceptable.


36 posted on 12/16/2013 1:07:47 PM PST by Purrcival (Four more years of OBAMA??????????? I hope this country can survive.)
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To: cherokee1

No PayPal account set up, so mailing address will do. And THANK YOU!!!


37 posted on 12/16/2013 1:17:17 PM PST by LTC.Ret (You'd think I would know better than to volunteer!!! www.sendmetocongress.us)
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To: paristexas

The point is that 40-yr olds don’t retire. I know all sorts of double-dippers - people who did 20 years in a military or civil service job and now collect a full pension, while also collecting a full pension for the job (very often civil service) that they did for the next 20 years until they reached actual retirement age.

This shouldn’t be the case. Somebody who’s been in combat perhaps should get some special bonus, although those people rarely last 20 years. But an automatic full pension after 20 years is ridiculous and also encourages skilled people to leave the job.


38 posted on 12/16/2013 1:18:21 PM PST by livius
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To: SkyPilot
"Ryan has lost his mind."

All of Ryan's attempts at budgeting have been wrong headed.

We need to create jobs to address the budget. We could do that by restoring the import tariffs and bringing industry back to America.

We don't need to make cuts to our military pay or cut entitlements. Stuff like this allows the democrats to paint the GOP as against the poor and common man.

39 posted on 12/16/2013 1:22:44 PM PST by DannyTN
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To: SkyPilot
"Ryan has lost his mind."

All of Ryan's attempts at budgeting have been wrong headed.

We need to create jobs to address the budget. We could do that by restoring the import tariffs and bringing industry back to America.

We don't need to make cuts to our military pay or cut entitlements. Stuff like this allows the democrats to paint the GOP as against the poor and common man.

40 posted on 12/16/2013 1:22:44 PM PST by DannyTN
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To: DannyTN

we do need to cut entitlements

Raising prices (tariffs) is not going to help, it is just another way to create malinvestment. We need less government intervention and less taxes and regulation.


41 posted on 12/16/2013 1:24:14 PM PST by GeronL (Extra Large Cheesy Over-Stuffed Hobbit)
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To: dagogo redux
...“retire” at forty?!

Yep and the best years of your life are left at the door sill as you leave, with a little deferred compensation as your "thank you for a job well done."

The military has decided that after 20, up or out...not the servicemember.

I have no problem with getting a haircut, IF everyone else gets one as well.

That is not the case here.

So, in the spirit of your "union mentality" slur, stick it.

42 posted on 12/16/2013 1:24:59 PM PST by SZonian (Throwing our allegiances to political parties in the long run gave away our liberty.)
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To: GeronL
You could lower taxes on individuals and corporations by the amount raised from the tariffs.

You could eliminate all taxes and regulations and you still can't compete against communist Chinese labor working for $2/day.

Put Americans back to work and safety net payments automatically fall. That's the only right way to cut entitlements.

43 posted on 12/16/2013 1:27:20 PM PST by DannyTN
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To: GeronL
You could lower taxes on individuals and corporations by the amount raised from the tariffs.

You could eliminate all taxes and regulations and you still can't compete against communist Chinese labor working for $2/day.

Put Americans back to work and safety net payments automatically fall. That's the only right way to cut entitlements.

44 posted on 12/16/2013 1:27:20 PM PST by DannyTN
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To: SkyPilot

Maybe we can all spend that big refund check we got back during the Clinton years from THE PEACE DIVIDEND. Oh, that’s right, the Democrats just used that money to buy more votes. Raise your hand if you think your federal taxes will go down if they cut retired military pay. I don’t see any hands up. So if the money doesn’t go to the retired military, where does it go? Isn’t it good to know that those Democrat United States Representatives and Senators don’t represent everyone in their district and state? They represent only certain people. Remember that.


45 posted on 12/16/2013 1:28:11 PM PST by blueunicorn6 ("A crack shot and a good dancer")
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To: livius; paristexas

Do you even have a clue what a “full pension” is? I gave you an example in my post to you and you “conveniently” ignore it.

You’re sure doing your damned best to make it sound like an E6 or E7 after 20 is swimming in cash...and that’s inexcusable. A lie by any other name...

Folks like you sure are doing a damn good job of stirring up ignorant and gullible folks with a pack of damnable lies and inuendo.


46 posted on 12/16/2013 1:31:55 PM PST by SZonian (Throwing our allegiances to political parties in the long run gave away our liberty.)
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To: SkyPilot

Hey, that’s ok.

Just look at all the BS being spread around right here by FReepers...just salivating about chucking veterans under the bus...spreading lies and inuendo about “full pensions” and all that goes with it.

I’m out...this place has gone to shit and the assholes spreading the lies can all go to hell.

Spit!


47 posted on 12/16/2013 1:33:58 PM PST by SZonian (Throwing our allegiances to political parties in the long run gave away our liberty.)
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To: DannyTN

We don’t need to compete. If you want restrictions on imports from unfree or hostile countries that is one thing, but a blanket tariff is nothing but a general tax hike.


48 posted on 12/16/2013 2:21:38 PM PST by GeronL (Extra Large Cheesy Over-Stuffed Hobbit)
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To: GeronL

Well China is clearly hostile and they have done the most to undermine our industries, so start with them.


49 posted on 12/16/2013 2:44:44 PM PST by DannyTN
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To: GeronL

Well China is clearly hostile and they have done the most to undermine our industries, so start with them.


50 posted on 12/16/2013 2:44:44 PM PST by DannyTN
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