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Envoy Sent to London: Berlin Denies Rift with UK over WWI Centenary
Der Spiegel ^ | August 19, 2013 06:33 PM | Friederike Heine

Posted on 08/20/2013 1:44:13 AM PDT by Olog-hai

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To: Netz; Olog-hai
Let us have a real care that we do not talk at cross purposes and thus descend into finger-pointing. A couple of reminders:

It was I who quoted Churchill about the Nazis bringing on a dark age made more terrible by "the lights of perverted science." So there can be no disagreement between us about the fact that the Germans combined whatever was torturing their soul with technology.

It was I who said that the Holocaust "was the product of the German soul, of 20th century technology and science, or the fanaticism of Hitler and his henchmen. I suspect it was some combination of all three." I do not deny, therefore, in fact, I advanced the idea that there was something in the German soul at the time which contributed to the Holocaust.

I did not insinuate:

1) Are you attempting shake off my “German Soul” idea by demonstrating that other cultures were, “just as bad”?

2) Israel exerting “undue”? influence on US Foreign Policy.

3) Jews as the main disseminating force of world Communism.

I will object to your "German soul" idea if you want to extrapolate that into an ongoing inter-generational tendency that is carried in the DNA of Germans. If that is your argument you must explain why it is that Germans seem to lose that tendency when they take up American citizenship. Do they change the DNA like so much oil? Moreover, I caution that when you make that assertion you are playing with fire. That was the import of these remarks which were made in a different context than you place them:

"If we insist that "Germany as a nation bears this sin" do we not leave ourselves intellectually defenseless to saying that Jews as a group bear responsibility for the advance of communism? If we are going to draw these conclusions, these invidious distinctions based on race or ethnicity, where does logic make us stop? May I say that stereotypes which you use in irony such as, "those money grubbing Jews” become legitimate debating points?"

Is there something in the DNA of Jews that makes them…? Why is it intellectually and morally indefensible to make that generalization but perfectly proper to say that Germans have a distorted soul, Irish are drunks, French are lousy soldiers, Mexicans are lazy etc. Do you really want to go there? Does the cultural Revolution which killed tens of millions prove that the Chinese soul is given to vigilante-ism? Does the British importation of slaves into the Americas prove that they are given to slavery? Does the British Navy subsequently policing the slave trade on the high seas and on in land rivers prove that the British are not slavers? How do you generalize about a nation (never mind whether you're talking about an actual race) from a historical event? Does the fact that the Israelis have won a series of wars against great odds mean that they are a warlike race? In this context I observe that Jews played a prominent role in the rise of communism. The Frankfurt School was 100% Jewish; Cloward and Piven were Jews (I think); Saul Alinsky, mentor of Hillary Clinton and posthumous mentor of Barack Obama, was a Jew. Am I therefore now entitled to say that Jews have a communist soul?

As to the United States support of Israel: I believe that the United States should be guided by a rational sense of its national interest. If you argue that an alliance with democratic Israel advances the American national interest, that is an argument which counts for me. But the idea that America should support Israel because the Germans murdered Jews does not. That observation was made in the context of the latter generations of Germans not wanting to pay reparations for what their fathers and grandfathers did. Likewise, I want to know what America gets out of its relationship with Israel not whether Israel is our burden because of German crimes of a prior generation.

Finally, I am clear about the German war guilt and about German guilt for the Holocaust but I am not at all clear that we should vest the sins of the fathers onto the sons. I think the idea that we can define a national soul and carry guilt from generation to generation is very dangerous.

It is in this context I note that Olog-hai volunteered:

Germans do not want to celebrate the fact that they lost two world wars in a row. Let ‘em go celebrate cultural diversity and being flooded with Muslims over a beer. Yah! Yah! Ve von de var you know!

But immediately before your last intelligent reply I received this:

All I can say to that very propagandized response is for all to recall George Santayana’s maxim. Study of the past will clarify things very much.

It does not advance our understanding to resort to cryptic phrases which are pregnant with allusions to one of the monstrous crimes in the history of mankind. I think it is better to say it plainly.

41 posted on 08/21/2013 6:55:58 AM PDT by nathanbedford ("Attack, repeat, attack!" Bull Halsey)
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To: Olog-hai

Statism—in fact and in principle—is nothing more than gang rule. A dictatorship is a gang devoted to looting the effort of the productive citizens of its own country. When a statist ruler exhausts his own country’s economy, he attacks his neighbors. It is his only means of postponing internal collapse and prolonging his rule. A country that violates the rights of its own citizens, will not respect the rights of its neighbors. Those who do not recognize individual rights, will not recognize the rights of nations: a nation is only a number of individuals.”

42 posted on 08/21/2013 7:23:33 AM PDT by iopscusa (El Vaquero. (SC Lowcountry Cowboy))
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To: iopscusa

I agree with all of that.

And history reveals who the greatest of statists were, and perhaps will be.

43 posted on 08/21/2013 8:51:21 AM PDT by Olog-hai
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To: nathanbedford

Santayana’s saying is very famous; it certainly is not cryptic.

44 posted on 08/21/2013 8:52:52 AM PDT by Olog-hai
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To: All

Santayana wrote many wise words, the wisest of them, to this humble mind, would be:

“Almost every wise saying has an opposite, no less wise, to balance it”

45 posted on 08/21/2013 2:12:49 PM PDT by Roadgeek
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To: nathanbedford
Without drawing this missive out into a long-winded, (which is what's going to happen anyway) esoteric debate I can say that we are in agreement. I am not finger pointing. I wish to reach a rapprochement with you.

I am not, in any way, insinuating anything residing in a German DNA. I reject the DNA idea completely. Tortured soul, yes, preprogramemd killing tendency, no.

You stated:

“Does the fact that the Israelis have won a series of wars against great odds mean that they are a warlike race”?

The fact that Israel has won a series of wars is a testament to the fact that most of these wars were defensible, thus making them loyal to the name of the Army, the Israel DEFENSE Forces.

If Israel was really a warlike country, it would have soundly defeated the Arabs and utterly wiped them out so as to not to have to deal with them again, in another, and yet another war as we have seen up until the present time. Israel could have eliminated the Arabs in 1948, 1956, 1967, 1973 but she stopped short of that because she seeks a negotiated peace. The Arabs on the contrary fight genocidal wars as we are seeing right now. Had they won, we would not be here at all. Just look at what they do to each other, in their own lands!

Jews and Communism. Jews have a tendency to stand out and not accept the status quo and are always found at the forefront or avantguard of X.

Jews love change because they're never satisfied with what is. More recently, that's why they voted for Obama’s CHANGE. This Jew did not support the current President.

This desire for change propels them to the forefront of both moderate and radical change throughout history, in all fields (Einstein, Freud and Marx) including politics. Alinsky, Jerry Rubin, Abbie Hoffman, Rosa Luxembourg, Trotsky and so many more were Jews with a change agenda that revolutionized the world.

Jews may initiate that change but never sure how it will end, usually to their detriment. This is a lesson not learned by the Jews. The aims of Zionism on the other hand are designed by, for and the advabcement of the Jews in Eretz Yisrael, the Land of Israel.

I thought the Frankfurt school was an anti-Socialist, anti-collective Economic think tank. Am I incorrect? Many Jews there? Like Hayek and Mises? Are/were these fellows Jews?

Obama’s mentors are (unfortunately) individuals like Jimmy Carter, Zbig Brzezinski, Rev. Wright, Alinksy and a host of Left-wing nut cases, but the people did elect him.

What can I say about the likes of Jews like Ram Emmanuel or in Clinton's administration, Sandy Berger, Mad. Albright, Martin Indyk, Dennis Ross, etc.? I can only hang my head in shame at these Jews who serve another G-d apparently.

You stated:
“Likewise, I want to know what America gets out of its relationship with Israel not whether Israel is our "burden" because of German crimes of a prior generation”.

Do you see Israel as a “burden”? I'd like to know why. Israel gives many things to America but most of it is secret.
America does not support Israel ONLY out of a moral conviction to perhaps, safeguard a people who are part and parcel of the founding of America and the deep Judeo-Christian values that existed in America and perhaps, still guide her but I am not so sure anymore.

I think self-interest is primary followed by COMMON VALUES in a sea of barbarity in the Middle East. There is no denying that the moral element for Germany's relationship with Israel is part of a post-war “responsibility” that the Germans feel. This will fade with time and then where will Germany be?

It has been said that the Jews are the Miner's canary bird in the cave for civilization. When Jews go down, other always follow, this seems to be a rule throughout history and maybe this is why, it is still important for the West to “safeguard” the Jews from Holocaust II, though, if you ask me, we in Israel can't RELY on anybody to defend us.

Obama and the West are showing that they are not prepared to do anything whatsoever to halt the Iranians, who will get the bomb and this will change the planet. Now onto your last issue.

You come back to what I think is your main point, time and time again. That the sins of the fathers should not be passed down to the children. There is great merit in what you say but in reality it is the German people's decision. It is up to your culture and society in Deutschland to deal with it and, get over it or, pass it down.

The Jews will not forget and these memories are passed down just as the memories from ancient Persia (holiday of Purim) and ancient Egypt (holiday of Passover) are remembered and burned into our religious, national-social psyches.

When Israeli youth, from high schools, visit Auschwitz and do what is called, “The March of the Living” wearing Israeli blue and white with flags in hand, does this not irriatte the Poles? Does this not remind them about something they'd prefer to forget about? Of course. We remember and mark the place, the Poles can chose to hate us for reminding them or they can deal with it in their own terms.

So Germany has to deal with their own past, in the own terms. It is not up to me as a post-WWII Jew to tell you what to do with that package of horror. Either learn from it or make similar mistakes again, in the future.

I do not want to dictate anything to you but history shows the Jewish people that they pay a price for reminding others that they (the Jews) thrive and live and are a testament to G-d. This can really piss off other faiths and it does.

I even once read a diatribe by Bin Laden where he attacked the Jews by saying that the Torah is the sole possession of the Muslims, not the “pigs and monkey” Jews.

I call that unbridled jealousy and hate and that is what Islam suffers from today.

46 posted on 08/21/2013 11:22:17 PM PDT by Netz
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To: Netz
I thought the Frankfurt school was an anti-Socialist, anti-collective Economic think tank. Am I incorrect? Many Jews there? Like Hayek and Mises? Are/were these fellows Jews?

I do not think that The Frankfurt School could be described as anti-socialist and anti-collective, to the contrary the indictment against the Frankfurt school is that it has brilliantly expanded conventional Marxism from a purely economic approach to a social approach as well and this adaptation has profoundly influenced American and indeed worldwide education and explains much of our condition today.

In my view it is unfortunate that the history of The Frankfurt School reveals that it was 100% (or nearly 100%) Jewish in its origins and development. That immunizes it to some degree from criticism as does Obama's skin pigment. I offer you two views of this extraordinarily influential intellectual movement, one which indicts the movement with a bill of particulars and the counteroffensive, which comes from The Southern Poverty Law Center and touches on potential anti-Semitism of the critics and alleges the critics engage in conspiracy theory.

If you look at the indictment,

Who Placed American Men in a Psychic 'Iron Cage?' Part II

The Threat of 'Cultural Marxism' you will be exposed to a coherent challenge to the movement. I direct you to the Wikipedia account of the opposition so that you can see how the game is played by the opposition: Frankfurt School conspiracy theory.

I regret that this comes up in the context of anti-Semitism because it distorts any discussion of the impact of The Frankfurt School. Please remember that I referred of The Frankfurt School not by way of saying it is a Jewish conspiracy but by way of saying that its existence, whether a conspiracy or not, is not grounds for indictment of the Jewish race-precisely the opposite of what The Southern Poverty Law Center will no doubt accuse me of.

47 posted on 08/22/2013 1:18:34 AM PDT by nathanbedford ("Attack, repeat, attack!" Bull Halsey)
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To: nathanbedford
I am confused. I thought the Frankfurt School of Economic thought was anti-Left. You are showing me a tangential path here that I am not familiar with. I cannot comment on the material you have provided until I review it.
I am also not familiar with the The Southern Poverty Law Center.
I GENERALLY DO NOT follow schools of conspiracy at all because most of the material out there in either inaccurate, slanted to one side or blatant lies. People love to believe in grand schemes and plots. I for one give them very little credibility.

Let me read what you have sent before I comment, if you have the patience...
Another question: Why would an American, living in Bavaria have a picture of Nathan Bedford as Apr of his signature? You're obviously from below the Mason-Dixon line? Wasn't he in the KKK?

48 posted on 08/22/2013 1:52:15 AM PDT by Netz
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To: Netz
Actually, Forrest founded the KKK and he also disbanded the KKK. I invite you to take a look at my About Page for a full explanation for the use of the avatar and pen name.

You should also be aware of Nathan Bedford's first Maxim of American politics: all politics in America is not local but ultimately racial.

The Southern Poverty Law Center was of signal importance in terminating the life of the KKK and America in its last incarnation. It brought a civil action under a federal statute originally designed against the Mafia which made all conspirators libel for damage caused by any member of the conspiracy. They got a judgment against the KKK and bankrupted it.

Beyond that, The Southern Poverty Law Center is a darling of the mainstream media in America often quoted to characterize conservative groups, movements, or people. I believe you will see a reference to the tea party as a suspect group. The Southern Poverty Law Center is notorious among conservatives for labeling anything conservative a conspiracy and "hate."

I cannot overstate the influence of The Frankfurt School on American journalism, academia, and, indeed, society. The article I sent you is lengthy but well worth the read if you want to have a conservative view of why America is in the psychic cage that it is presently in.

I have thought long and hard about the influence of The Frankfurt School and I think that it is profoundly dangerous because it is not just an attack on, for example, male domination (authoritarianism) to make room for a feminism, it is an assault on our epistemology, it is designed to attack the way we think and to impose an intellectual nihilism on society which leaves it vulnerable to the siren of the left. It does not argue politics it screws with our heads.

I would like to have your reaction after you put your acute mind to the matter.

49 posted on 08/22/2013 2:07:40 AM PDT by nathanbedford ("Attack, repeat, attack!" Bull Halsey)
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To: Netz

>> I am also not familiar with the The Southern Poverty Law Center.

A lot of scallywags.

50 posted on 08/22/2013 2:12:53 AM PDT by Gene Eric (Don't be a statist!)
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To: nathanbedford

The Southern Poverty Law Center was of signal importance in terminating the life of the KKK and America in its last incarnation.

So, you’re saying it terminated America as well?

Was this enacted when Bobby Kennedy was Attorney General?

As a Conservative, I must review your material. I wish I had an “acute mind” to apply to this material but I will do my best and get back with you.


51 posted on 08/22/2013 2:24:12 AM PDT by Netz
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To: Netz
Sorry, put the blame on Dragon NaturallySpeaking software which confused the word "in" with the word "and."

I don't know whom to blame for the failure of proofreading.

From Wiki:

Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act, commonly referred to as the RICO Act or simply RICO, is a United States federal law that provides for extended criminal penalties and a civil cause of action for acts performed as part of an ongoing criminal organization. The RICO Act focuses specifically on racketeering, and it allows the leaders of a syndicate to be tried for the crimes which they ordered others to do or assisted them, closing a perceived loophole that allowed someone who told a man to, for example, murder, to be exempt from the trial because he did not actually commit the crime personally.

RICO was enacted by section 901(a) of the Organized Crime Control Act of 1970 (Pub.L. 91–452, 84 Stat. 922, enacted October 15, 1970). RICO is codified as Chapter 96 of Title 18 of the United States Code, 18 U.S.C. § 1961–1968. While its original use in the 1970s was to prosecute the Mafia as well as others who were actively engaged in organized crime, its later application has been more widespread..

52 posted on 08/22/2013 2:33:14 AM PDT by nathanbedford ("Attack, repeat, attack!" Bull Halsey)
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To: nathanbedford

I have heard of RICO and I see it was enacted in 1970, after RFK was Attorney General.

More later my Southern (both in US and Germany) to run but will do my homework.


53 posted on 08/22/2013 2:39:48 AM PDT by Netz
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To: iopscusa; Olog-hai

The British Empire was indeed a positive force. You can thank it for the world predominance of the English language, the rapid acceleration of justice under English Common Law, the rapid acceleration of technology, and the Anglo-Capitalist system. Yes, it took some time to go from Medieval Feudalism and Slavery to the modern era, and there were some atrocities in between, but if it weren’t for the British Empire and mother England, we’d all probably be painting our faces and chasing zebras instead of having this discussion. If not, perhaps forging our swords for the upcoming Viking raid.

54 posted on 08/22/2013 6:05:30 AM PDT by wolfman23601
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To: iopscusa

“BTW I firmly believe this country should never have succumbed to involvement in WW1 and that the US involvement was instrumental in assisting the formulation that gave the world WW2.”

We probably never would have gotten involved, but are you suggesting we should have done nothing as the Germans sink our commercial vessels and allow our economy to grind to a halt? I’d say the Lusitania made the war impossible to avoid.

55 posted on 08/22/2013 6:10:43 AM PDT by wolfman23601
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To: wolfman23601

More BS about the East India Trading Co. aka British Empire. My contention is the US should never, never ally with our historic enemy Britain. Thanks to the criminal false flags by Churchill and Wilson we were doomed to be involved in 2 World Wars + a Cold War w/ Communism. Goggle this: “Secret of the Lusitania: Arms find challenges Allied claims it was solely a passenger ship” By Sam Greenhill, Dec 2008.
Can’t we agree that we need to move beyond the government published historical/hysterical propaganda spewing continuously from the Cultural Marxist media! Wake the hell up from the false Neo-Con corrupt version of patriotism, can you not see that this faux patriotism is the death of actual freedom?

56 posted on 08/22/2013 11:11:10 AM PDT by iopscusa (El Vaquero. (SC Lowcountry Cowboy))
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To: Netz

57 posted on 08/23/2013 7:11:41 AM PDT by nathanbedford ("Attack, repeat, attack!" Bull Halsey)
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To: iopscusa

I googled, and I was flabbergasted.

In Germany, due to te circumstances of the Event which Mr Greenhill described concisely in his article, it has for a long time been speculated that the Lusitania indeed had had contraband on board...

58 posted on 08/23/2013 7:58:05 AM PDT by Roadgeek
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To: Roadgeek

Glad you read that bit of unPC History about WW1. Here’s some little known unPC History on WW2 regarding treatment of German POws by Eisenhower,

Don’t miss this at that site; Luftwaffe Pilot Spared B-17 Pilot’s Life

59 posted on 08/23/2013 11:36:09 AM PDT by iopscusa (El Vaquero. (SC Lowcountry Cowboy))
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