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Envoy Sent to London: Berlin Denies Rift with UK over WWI Centenary
Der Spiegel ^ | August 19, 2013 06:33 PM | Friederike Heine

Posted on 08/20/2013 1:44:13 AM PDT by Olog-hai

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To: nathanbedford

You actually believe that such people are interested in democracy? Then why the deliberate blind eye to the Soviet-like EU government in Brussels? Why also the sudden interest in restoring the monarchy at what is now called the federal level?

As for US media in other countries and how the perception of the USA may be so framed, blame Hollyweird.

You’re completely wrong that racism on their part is due to US conditioning; it goes back centuries. Only a liberal would so reason. Unless by what you mean, it is the premature cancellation of de-Nazification on the part of the Allies, the USA in particular? because then I’d agree in a contemporary sense, to a degree that is.

As for the “stigma of racism”, when you have half the population in a survey compare the IDF to the Waffen SS and also believing that Israel is conducting a “war of extermination” against the “Palestinians” (which seems to be working in reverse since the population of “Palestinians” continues to grow), perhaps the stigma is prematurely withdrawn?

21 posted on 08/20/2013 5:41:48 AM PDT by Olog-hai
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To: iopscusa

You seem to fall for leftist propaganda very quickly. The British Empire was a far more positive force in the world than negative. If they never went to India, that country would have been terrorized by the Thuggees perhaps into the modern age; it certainly would have fallen to the Second World (communism). Certainly the former British territories in Africa fell to communists after the empire withdrew.

Would you put your faith in the competing empires from Europe? Have a look at what they did first.

22 posted on 08/20/2013 5:45:29 AM PDT by Olog-hai
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To: nathanbedford
I would also like to recommend two volumes from T.H. Tetens. They are not out of date or anachronistic, since the type of post-war country so built was not altered by reunification.
23 posted on 08/20/2013 5:49:22 AM PDT by Olog-hai
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To: nathanbedford

Let me think about your reply and I will get back with you. I think we agree more than disagree. I need to digest your response, thanks.

24 posted on 08/20/2013 6:20:10 AM PDT by Netz
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To: Roadgeek; nathanbedford
Unfortunately, most Germans have, as you implied, but a dim idea of the US, her political system or her history and her self-image derived from both.

Unfortunately, most Americans have but a dim idea of the US, her political system or her history and her self-image derived from both.

I lived in a small town on the Mosel River for 3 years during my tour in Germany. During the 1980 elections, my neighbors pleaded with me to vote for Carter, as they were certain that Reagan would start WWIII.

My German at that time was quite good, as I was ending my 4th year in country. At my neighborhood gasthaus, I gave my neighbors a better understanding of American history and politics. In short, I brought them down off the ledge, but it took a couple of months.

The deal was sealed on Reagan's inauguration day, when the hostages were released. Shortly after, I was invited to sit at the stammtisch, a privilege not accorded to many foreigners.

It didn't hurt that I was one of their best customers. ;)

25 posted on 08/20/2013 6:31:21 AM PDT by Night Hides Not (The Tea Party was the earthquake, and Chick Fil A the tsunami...100's of aftershocks to come.)
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To: Night Hides Not
Your Stammtisch experience exactly parallels mine.

The Germans were utterly opposed to Bush, were convinced that he was a war monger and a (gasp) cowboy to boot. The fact that the Europeans gave Obama the peace prize right out of the gate tells us everything we need to know.

You are right, the average German is better informed about America certainly than Americans are about Germany and may even be better informed about America that most Americans, or at least those low information voters who returned Obama to office.

26 posted on 08/20/2013 6:39:16 AM PDT by nathanbedford ("Attack, repeat, attack!" Bull Halsey)
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To: pepsionice

‘Lousy military leadership and strategy from the British and French...accomplished almost nothing for the war.’

Utter crap. The myth of British generals being ‘butchers and bunglers’ is just that. Whilst mistakes were made, Haig and the British in fact fought many campaigns successfully and skilfully, esp in the last year of the war. Where, contrary to myth, the British Army bore the major brunt of the Western Front fighting (the Kasierschlact and the 100 Days Offensive). And used ground breaking tactics. The use by the British of tanks at the Battle of Cambrai in 1917 impressed General Pershing so much that he ordered the creation of a tank force to support the AEF’s infantry, for example.

Americans who think Pershing waltzed in and showed the Limeys and Frogs how to fight need to think again. The Americans themselves in their (few) months of fighting made strategic and tactical errors.

27 posted on 08/20/2013 10:24:38 AM PDT by the scotsman (i)
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To: Olog-hai

I’m leery of leftist and rightist propaganda but you do seem to have some overly warm view concerning the benevolence of the British Empire. Take another look @ the Brits in S. Africa, Zimbabwe, Rhodesia, Egypt, Iraq or China and then discuss what fine friends they’ve been.
BTW I firmly believe this country should never have succumbed to involvement in WW1 and that the US involvement was instrumental in assisting the formulation that gave the world WW2.

28 posted on 08/20/2013 12:17:22 PM PDT by iopscusa (El Vaquero. (SC Lowcountry Cowboy))
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To: Olog-hai; AdmSmith; AnonymousConservative; Berosus; bigheadfred; Bockscar; cardinal4; ColdOne; ...

“A”clamatory, beclamatory, ceeclamatory, declamatory, really all the way down to zeeclamatory, that’s one of the consequences one has to live with when one loses two world wars and winds up running Europe anyway. ;’) Thanks Olog-hai.

29 posted on 08/20/2013 3:08:51 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (It's no coincidence that some "conservatives" echo the hard left.)
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To: Olog-hai

30 posted on 08/20/2013 4:25:09 PM PDT by Oztrich Boy (Drone strike on Michael Grunwald: you know it makes sense)
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To: nathanbedford
Nobody wants to heap guilt upon generation after generation of German volk but it is a human tendency to deny and forget the past with time.

For the average German, under 60 there is no recollection of it and it happened a long time ago.

For the Jewish people, 1933-1945 is yesterday.
For a German, it happened eons ago.

As an ancient people that has seen it all before, we have a long memory and things like WWII do not fade. We are here, Nazi Germany is gone, we survive anything and everything thrown against us. Memory is key.

You stated:”It is possible to say that the Germans were guilty and the Poles were not, for example”.

The Poles and most Europeans were guilty as well. The Austrians (Anschluss) Hungarians, French, Croats and all other Europeans freely (and happily I might add) handed over their Jewish brethren to the Germans or the Fascist equivalent power in each land, so did the Church.
The guilt is European, not just German but Germany will have to carry this burden for a long time.

You stated, “But it is not proper to vest the sins of the father onto the son”.

Germany, as a nation bears this sin. Of course, if you're born after 1945 you are not part of the crime individually, but collectively your people, in your nation, with your ideology and more importantly, with your culture/mindset perpetrated crimes that no other nation (though the USSR is damn close) had ever done, up to that point in history.

If Antisemitism exists in Germany and Europe, and, as you say, it is the result of Germany STILL having to pay all the victims then, what does that cyclical argument say about the Germans? If they are Antisemitic because they have to pay “those money grubbing Jews”, then they have learned very little. By thinking this way, you blame the victim for being the victim and you vent your anger on the one that suffered. Hate the Jew for being the Jew that you killed?

I understand the logic of your argument and understand the sentiment of the Germans who are “sick and tired” of those payments but what price can compensate for the loss of 1.5 million Jewish children? Do yo have any idea what that means for a small people like the Jews?

I am not getting out my violin to play a sad song to make you feel guilty here but what I am trying to convey to you is what a devastating effect this has on the Jewish people to this very day, right now. I do not think people understand or appreciate the impact of the loss of 1.5 million children, forget about the other 4.5 million souls, I am thinking about the kids.

Germany will have to pay some kind of compensation for years to come until the people of that era pass from this world and that is fast approaching. Then, Germany will have paid out her funds. In Israel, in the late 1950’s there was a huge argument about even accepting reparation funds (called “blood money”), in the end, the young, struggling country decided to take the funds to help boost her fledgling economy.

You stated, “If one can say that the bungled peace of 1918 led to the Holocaust...”

I do not think there is a direct correlation. A “bungled peace” led to WWI part 2 but the Holocaust is something special, something outside of post-WWI grievances,something very special in it's evil, that only the Germans designed.
It comes deep from the depths of the German soul, not the Pole, not the Japanese nor Italian, it is uniquely German and that is something the Germans must think about and analyze for generations, should they chose to do so.

The bottom line, is that we Jews, especially in Israel, celebrate LIFE. Unlike the Muslims (who allied themselves with the Axis powers in WWII) of this region, who celebrate death, WE choose life.

We recognize that Germany has made amazing strides, has educated itself, have created an amazing, prosperous country out of the ashes of WWII.

We celebrate the modern Germany and they are our closest ally in Europe so we recognize and celebrate the rehabilitation and unification of your country.

We do not forget however, that 70 years ago, it was a capital offense to be a Jew in Europe and that the ashes of millions of my people are still scattered all over the continent.

31 posted on 08/20/2013 10:41:47 PM PDT by Netz
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To: Netz
Thank you for a dispassionate but thoughtful reply.

Let me begin by correcting my statement which no doubt leads to a misapprehension which I sensed the minute I saw it published on the screen. My observation, "It is possible to say that the Germans were guilty and the Poles were not, for example,” was meant to apply to war guilt rather than to a history of anti-Semitism, of which the polls are certainly "guilty"just as were the Russians, as you noted.

I am not sure that it is only the Germans who would have effected the Holocaust. It is clear that a quarter-century earlier the Turks explored the possibilities and a couple of decades earlier the Soviets were pretty brutal to the kulaks. We have had tens of millions murdered in China and the Vietnamese were brutal after they swept over the South. The killing fields of Cambodia reflect a kind of blind murderous outburst which killed about one third of its people. I am reminded of Churchill's wartime speech which I do not quote exactly but was to the effect that if the Nazis prevailed the world would descend into a new dark age made more terrible by the lights of perverted science. I don't know how much of the Holocaust was the product of the German soul, of 20th century technology and science, or the fanaticism of Hitler and his henchmen. I suspect it was some combination of all three.

Incidentally, for the record I am not German I'm merely live in Germany.

Let me conflate two matters. First, my comment that, "it is not proper to vest the sins of the father onto the son" and your observation that, "Germany, as a nation bears this sin." I know you have tried to square the circle but the two concepts are fundamentally incompatible-at least once the guilty generation has died off. It seems to me that for a German to bear any guilt for the Holocaust he must've arrived at least at the age of puberty by the beginning of the war, 1939. That would make these people nearly 80 years old today. More than 90% of the population feels that they are not personally guilty for the crimes of their fathers.

At some point these Germans have a legitimate complaint about paying reparations and you quite rightly note that time is drawing near. Incidentally, I do not assert that this is the exclusive cause of German anti-Semitism which I believe exists, I think it is a point which is seized upon. But as an American, I question whether United States foreign policy concerning Israel should be dictated by the historical reality of what Germans did to Jews? I have not argued this case much since Obama came into office because I believe he has sold out to the Muslim Brotherhood and this and/or his Marxist background make him an enemy of Israel. I do not want to associate myself with those motives.

If we insist that "Germany as a nation bears this sin" do we not leave ourselves intellectually defenseless to saying that Jews as a group bear responsibility for the advance of communism? If we are going to draw these conclusions, these invidious distinctions based on race or ethnicity, where does logic make us stop? May I say that stereotypes which you use in irony such as, "those money grubbing Jews” become legitimate debating points? At what point do we become what we abhor?

32 posted on 08/21/2013 12:00:14 AM PDT by nathanbedford ("Attack, repeat, attack!" Bull Halsey)
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To: nathanbedford

Exactly. How far back do we go in history to hold nations and peoples accountable?

The Roman Empire? further back?

33 posted on 08/21/2013 12:02:49 AM PDT by GeronL
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To: nathanbedford
I am an American-Israeli. Born & bred in Michigan, raised as a Patriot, NRA and my father served in the USAAF in WWII. So, mine is a Patriot yet Zionist (not an evil word) background.

You stated: “I am not sure that it is only the Germans who would have effected the Holocaust”

and then you go on to cite all the bloody events of the 20th century carried out by various regimes. That's fine.

Yes, genocide has happened before WWII and after it but what makes this word “Holocaust” so unique for Germany and that was not done before or since is based on two main points:

1) Sheer scale of the killing machine, the absolute commitment of all of the nation's resources in order to completely eliminate a race forever and destroy any sign that it ever existed and...

2) The advanced Industrial/Technological tools and systems used to carry it out.
This differentiates the German experience in WWII from the Turks, Russians and Chinese slaughters that have ever been carried out.

Who, other than the problematic German cultural soul with their MOST ADVACNED 20th century technology and science could have done this? You and I know that Germans are industrious (I worked with Siemens) who see a project to the very end, in detail and precision. Who else has combined the concept with the technological tools other than the Master race?

Now to an issue that I thought might come up and it is a classic.

You stated: “But as an American, I question whether United States foreign policy concerning Israel should be dictated by the historical reality of what Germans did to Jews?

I really don't want to go off on a tangent here about Israel but if that is what you'd like, fine with me.

US Foreign policy is not “dictated” by war crime guilt for Israel. Israel has every right to exist and thrive. It had that right in 1919 and it had it in 1948. The world did feel sorry for the Jews in 1945 but the idea for establishing a Jewish homeland is as old as the Bible. Jews have lived in the land always but not in huge numbers.

The US and the West supported Israel because it represents the Judeo-Christian West, values, concepts, freedoms and yes, even in this region, Democracy.

When the West needed a bulwark against the USSR and her Arab satellite nations, the US supported Israel but that really did not start seriously until AFTER the 1967 war. Not before. That is to say, Israel potentially could have lost in 1948, 1956 and 1967 and there would have been not a crocodile tear shed by anybody.

I use stereotypical terms to drive home point. I have no problem writing down antisemitic slurs because when we talk about these subjects, all the cards need to be on the table. I hold nothing back and I believe in stark honesty in order to get past these hurdles.

I know what I am saying is an affront to you and I apologize for that. I refer time and time again to the German soul as being uniquely dark and violent. It is in there somewhere, do you not agree? Isn't that what S. Kubrick was alluding to in the film, ‘A Clockwork Orange’, you know, Beethoven, culture vs. violence?

In your responses I note several points that concern me.

1) Are you attempting shake off my “German Soul” idea by demonstrating that other cultures were, “just as bad”?
2) Israel exerting “undue”? influence on US Foreign Policy.
3) Jews as the main disseminating force of world Communism.

Now, I am an ardent anticommunist and a Conservative. The points you raise are yours to be raised freely but they remind me of classic anti-Jewish (Zionist) talking points.

The idea that the US is somehow controlled by Jews is a classic libel.
The idea that Jews pushed the Communist agenda is also a classic and I think we have to be careful here because I am capable of going off on multiple tangents and we might stray from the main point here.

In any event I do not wish to become that which I abhor.

34 posted on 08/21/2013 12:58:19 AM PDT by Netz
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To: iopscusa
Saying “and rightist” as well as “propaganda” in the same breath means, at the very least, that you cannot recognize the truth when you see it. And you have fallen hard for some of the left’s biggest propaganda.

As for WWI: We should have let the people on the Lusitania die unavenged, like Benghazi? Bad enough that Wilson covered up for the Kaiser for two years after that ship was sunk. (Furthermore in regards to the Kaiser, he destroyed an entire Belgian town—Louvain—merely because he claimed to have found “dum-dum” bullets there.)
35 posted on 08/21/2013 1:17:39 AM PDT by Olog-hai
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To: nathanbedford

All I can say to that very propagandized response is for all to recall George Santayana’s maxim. Study of the past will clarify things very much.

36 posted on 08/21/2013 1:35:23 AM PDT by Olog-hai
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To: Olog-hai

You really have no idea about my views and appear to be a rather smug & arrogant fool. There’s plenty of propaganda spewing from all sides and relying on the Lusitania as purpose to join in WW1 is silly. I remain convinced that we should have remained uninvolved in both European wars. Your selective history is little more than propaganda, aka history written by the victors. Otherwise get-a-life.

37 posted on 08/21/2013 5:04:33 AM PDT by iopscusa (El Vaquero. (SC Lowcountry Cowboy))
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To: iopscusa

Well, since you came out with personal attacks, I have to assume that you count liberalism among your views. You are your own worst enemy, in that case.

38 posted on 08/21/2013 5:31:16 AM PDT by Olog-hai
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To: Olog-hai

Oh puleez, smug is no way to go thru life, geta life.

39 posted on 08/21/2013 6:24:32 AM PDT by iopscusa (El Vaquero. (SC Lowcountry Cowboy))
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To: iopscusa

Then by all means, stop being smug.

40 posted on 08/21/2013 6:26:27 AM PDT by Olog-hai
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