Spitfire vs Bf 109 and F-14 vs Su-27: the difference is always the pilot

The Aviationist ^ | May 31, 2013 | Dario Leone

[DemforBush]

Reading this article, a couple of things came to mind:

-There was a pre-war (late 1930’s) fighter called the Brewster Buffalo. From what I’ve read, it became obsolete rather quickly in U.S. forces, and wasn’t much loved by the Brits and Dutch, who got surplus ones. The Finns, however, chewed up entire squadrons of Soviet fighters with the little bugger.

-Regarding the Flanker...there was a Cold War-era unit in the USAF called “Constant Peg” where U.S. pilots would fly captured/acquired Soviet fighters in training missions. They never had a Flanker, of course. They did get to fly MiG-15’s, 21’s and 27’s. It was really interesting to read about the quirks each design had. Apparently, the ‘23 was the toughest to fly and most pilots hated to take the thing up in the air at all.

[GreyFriar]

good articel and photo spitfire, bf-109 and others

[bert]

thanks....

[A.A. Cunningham]

FW109(sic)

Fw 190

Bf 109

[A.A. Cunningham]

but in combat an aircraft would have to to lose airspeed to do it making themselves a sitting duck.

Don't know much about VIFFing, do you?

[DFG]

The Final Countdown

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbEQ1xFh2J8

[SeaHawkFan]

I was going to say the same thing.

[HANG THE EXPENSE]

By the time the mustang got to the south pacific the experienced zero pilots were gone.They were cleaned out by the navy pilots and P-40 pilots earlier in the war.The mustang pilots were not as inexperienced as one would think by that time in the war.There are more P-40 aces than there are are mustang aces a fact that is over looked by mustang fans.

[Flag_This]

The F6F Hellcat annihilated the Zero. The P-40 contributed a little. 5160 air-to-air victories vs. 660.

Linkage

[A.A. Cunningham]

They were cleaned out by the navy pilots and P-40 pilots earlier in the war.

What a benevolent slight to the 120 Marine Corps aces and all the other Marine aviators with kills in the Pacific theater. Yeah it was all squids and army air corps pukes who won the war.

[Hillarys Gate Cult]

Yes I do. So what.

“Viffing also allowed a much tighter turn in combat manoeuvres, although there is little evidence to suggest that it was regularly taught to pilots, as the loss of airspeed could make the aircraft vulnerable to attack.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vectoring_nozzles

[Charles Martel]

There was still Adolph Galland’s reply to Göring during the Battle of Britain when der Dicke asked if there was anything he could do to help the Luftwaffe fighter arm. Gallandly famous replied, “Ja, get me a squadron of Spitfires!”

A few years later, Egyptian pilots flew the Spitfire against the new Israeli Air Force, which had Czech-built Bf-109 variants. The Israeli pilots were better.

[ProtectOurFreedom]

If you REALLY want to get disgusted with FDR and his nefarious administrations, read Stalin's Secret Agents: The Subversion of Roosevelt's Government by M. Stanton Evans and Herbert Romerstein.

[PUGACHEV]

When that movie came out, the Smithsonian National Air and Space Museum held a lecture one evening with some of the pilots and the director. I attended. The pilots made a point of how surprisingly difficult it was to maneuver against the slower, lighter, Zeros. At one point in the scene, you’ll see a Tomcat dive toward the water and flatten out just above the waves in order to get beneath the Zero. That was not originally scripted, but occurred as a result of the pilot’s frustration in dealing with the Zero. An admiral at the lecture said that when he first saw the scene before the film was released, he complemented the director, and then asked for the name of the pilot who nearly put his plane into the water.

[tanknetter]

What a benevolent slight to the 120 Marine Corps aces and all the other Marine aviators with kills in the Pacific theater. Yeah it was all squids and army air corps pukes who won the war.

Well, technically there's no such thing as a "Marine Aviator", right? I mean, there's "Marine Air/Marine Aviation" ... but all USMC pilots are officially "Naval Aviatiors".

[SampleMan]

The A-7 was a concept looking for an engine until late in the war.

It was certainly good and yes, probably a tighter turner than USN aircraft, but I wouldn’t say superior. US aircraft were still more heavily armed and protected, as well has faster. I would put it on par.

Of course, by the time Japanese engine development made the A-7 viable, the USN was looking at new aircraft. Had the war continued, late 1945 and 1946 were going to see the F8F Bearcat replace the F6F Hellcat, the Boeing F8B, the British Sea Fury, etc. The point being that the Japanese started with a lead and blew it.

[tanknetter]

The Final Countdown, a guilty pleasure.

Kirk Douglas as the Nimitz Capt., James Farantino (sp?) as the Nimitz CAG, Charles Durning as the 1941 US Senator and Martin Sheen as the circa 1979 tech-rep/systems analyst.

It's one of my favorite movies. I've had friends over to watch it for the first time, and they think it's really dumb. Right up until the Tomcats vs. Zeros scene. Then they get hooked.

About eight years ago I was in a used book store and there on the shelf, for US$0.50, was the frikkin' NOVELIZATION of the movie. Ok, I just HAD to have the thing - just for the sake of having it on my shelf - and would have paid a heck of a lot more for it.

So I get it home and read it. It's completely different than the 1970s/1980s novelizations of movies. It actually reads like the book was written first, THEN the movie adapted from it. The book literally fills in every single hole/discrepency in the movie. And the last chapter is the conversation ("we have a lot to talk about") between Laskey and Tideman that takes place AFTER the movie ends.

[central_va]

Final Countdown has the most realistic carrier ops scene in any movie. It is the best yet stupidest movie of all time. I mean the whole premise is stupid, but oh so fun.

[tanknetter]

When that movie came out, the Smithsonian National Air and Space Museum held a lecture one evening with some of the pilots and the director. I attended. The pilots made a point of how surprisingly difficult it was to maneuver against the slower, lighter, Zeros. At one point in the scene, you’ll see a Tomcat dive toward the water and flatten out just above the waves in order to get beneath the Zero. That was not originally scripted, but occurred as a result of the pilot’s frustration in dealing with the Zero. An admiral at the lecture said that when he first saw the scene before the film was released, he complemented the director, and then asked for the name of the pilot who nearly put his plane into the water.

On the "Final Countdown" special edition DVD they have a bunch of extras including interviews with the VF-84 Tomcat drivers, and an article from the Confederate Air Force's newsletter (at the time) about the filming of the movie.

Those VF-84 pilots actually had their a**es chewed out. At the premier of the movie at the Uptown Theater in DC.

By the CNO.

The CNO basically did the way too stereotypical "What the HELL were you doing with MY/THE TAXPAYERS airplane?!?!?!" thing on them. As they were trying to assure him that the aircraft never, ever, ever ("really it didn't sir!") depart controlled flight. Right - the pilot CLEARLY stalls the plane and recovers by going into Z-5 afterburner a few hundred feet above the water. Which given the usual reaction by the TF-30s on the A-model Tomcat suddenly being firewalled was a really lucky break for the pilot and RIO.

The CAF newsletter included had a great article on the guys flying the "Zeros" (viz-modded SNJ/AT6 Texans) during the shoot. During the "bounce" part of the scene there was a B-25 cameraship with a movie camera in the tail sitting a few hundred yards out in front of the Zeros. The briefing had the F-14s coming in fairly slow (give that the F-14's stall speed isn't that much lower than a Texans maximum speed) and conducting a nice flyby/peel-off.

Instead the F-14s came in transonic and the Zeros got caught up their wake vortexes. Ooooops. The Zeros getting bounced all over the place is real - they were flying with the canopies cranked open and one of the CAF pilots had his helmet - with his HEADSET - yanked clean off and thrown outside the aircraft. They actually thought he'd crashed - called in SAR - and then he does a wing-wagging flypast of the Key West NAS ramp.

Oh, and according to the VF-84 guys, Katherine Ross (who played the Senator's aide/speechwriter) was a Class-A B*tch. They ended up pulling all sorts of pranks on her in retailiation.

Anyways, Bert, if you can find it I really really really recommend the 2-disc DVD (might be on the Blu-Ray as well, but I don't have that one) Special Edition with all the extras. Just about the only thing they don't cover is how the VF-84 CO and XO (I think) were relieved of duty due to accepting certain "tokens of gratitude" (like a completely tricked-out ready room) from the Producer/Director (Kirk Douglas' son, Peter). So I've heard :-)

[bert]

I found the the torrent and hope to watch it later this afternoon