Posted on 05/08/2013 3:14:59 AM PDT by grundle
PORT JEFFERSON, N.Y. (AP) -- With the beaming smiles of newlyweds, Paul Forziano and Hava Samuels hold hands, exchange adoring glances and complete each other's sentences. Their first wedding dance, he recalls, was to the song "Unchained ..." ''Melody," she chimes in.
They spend their days together in the performing arts education center where they met. But every night, they must part ways. Forziano goes to his group home. His wife goes to hers.
The mentally disabled couple is not allowed to share a bedroom by the state-sanctioned nonprofits that run the group homes — a practice the newlyweds and their parents are now challenging in a federal civil rights lawsuit.
"We're very sad when we leave each other," Forziano says. "I want to live with my wife, because I love her."
The couple had been considering marriage for three years before tying the knot last month, and they contend in their lawsuit that they were refused permission from their respective group homes to live together as husband and wife. The couple's parents, also plaintiffs in the lawsuit, said they have been seeking a solution since 2010.
"It's not something we wanted to do, it's something we had to do," said Bonnie Samuels, the mother of the bride.
The lawsuit contends Forziano's facility refused because people requiring the services of a group home are by definition incapable of living as married people, and it says Samuels' home refused because it believes she doesn't have the mental capacity to consent to sex.
(Excerpt) Read more at news.yahoo.com ...
I know this, and agree with most points. But you know as well, that any slip-up results in a child being “raised” by the state. This is a sensitive topic given the fundamental Consitutional right to bear and raise a child, however distorted the results from that have become over the years. There are many different levels of retardation, and some that would have no effect on the ability to raise a child. But here we are presented with two individuals in separate institutions! Without knowing more, this must be approached smartly.
Mental retardation can come long after birth. It can happen at any point between birth and death such as a traumatic head injury {in adults}, excessive prolonged fever in childhood or adulthood, etc.
There's several things going on. One thing is kids who are born with mental retardation who sometimes did not live to puberty are being helped and the same with head trauma patients. Much of it depends upon the persons capacity. There are certainly mentally retarded persons who can and should be allowed to marry. If we say no to them then do we say no to persons with physical disabilities for the same reasons? Force divorce?
I've worked in health care facilities which did have some developmental impaired patients both from birth and accidents most of them could had they been allowed to married. Should elderly patients with onset of Dementia be separated? One building at the facility I worked in was a barracks type of set up. The building was basically for persons whom the state had booted from a nearby mental institute years before but could not take care of themselves. The men were in one wing the women in another. A few more were in patient rooms in another part of the facility.
This may sound like B.S. to you but the patients in nursing homes etc do engage in sexual activity with each other sometimes. Just ask anyone who has worked in one and they can tell you. By law unless it is a forced act the employees can not interfere.
Parents don't live forever thus the reason for the group homes usually. If the persons in question were born in the parents early 40's and are now let's say 30 then how old are the parents? The same for kids born with CP, MD, or physical ailments. They all if they survive become adults at some point. More and more are surviving due to medical advances.
BTW I am a strong advocate for family caring for family. I am also experienced enough to understand sometimes that can't work. It takes someone with the right disposition to care for someone long term otherwise abuse can occur.
There is another aspect many persons don't know as well. In many states in relation to mental development and even mental illness is the fact often times families loose say. The laws for mental health care are not the same for physical care. It's sad, I think it's wrong, but often to get a severely retarded child help the only course of action allowed by law is through the state.
There is another not so pleasant aspect to this is that some children with severe retardation can become very violent. They most often do end up in skilled care mental health facilities. The only way they can be placed there in some states is by making them a Ward Of The State. The legalities stink.
As I said, it’s good to have a variety of solutions for a variety of people, and I do expect that some mentally retarded women, especially, are best served in female-only group homes.
The ADA has created far more issues than it solved. Even at that there has to be practical limitations grandfathered in. For example you can't make a 100 year old structure such as a school or courthouse meet ADA standards.
At the same time the ADA should also be written so families in difficult situations have legal say. Let me give you a quick example of what I'm saying. Suppose you are given an antidepressant to help stop smoking. Suppose due to an adverse reaction to that medication your behavior becomes severly pyschotic. Do you not believe your spouse should be able to sign for your treatement the same as if you were unconscious from an accident? The same hospital in a state that allows you to sign surgery consent forms for spouse will by law deny you any say in mental health treatment of a spouse or your adult offspring.
Interesting. Yes, we’ve clearly gone overboard on some mental health ‘rights’. I could see where not all family involvements would be benign, and so it is a sticky wicket, however.
And the idea that employers should be forced to hire and pay for accommodations to hire the disabled is offensive to me. That could be a great basis for charity, or failing that, maybe the government. But it is completely unfair to force individual employers to foot that bill.
Yea I agree. In reality most jobs for the disabled come at an added cost to employers. Even as far as hiring the person an assistant. Monetary wise it is cheaper to pay disability.
There is. Their parents can have them move in with them.
It might even end up costing them less money, if the two of them living together can help each other and require less assistance from the facility. Maybe he knows how to work the dishwasher, while she knows how to do the laundry, for example.
Marriage is an absolute legal contract that comes with tax benefits, survivor benefits, etc.
There is a religious aspect to it, but there is also a state issue to it. If they are ok getting married, they should move out and live as a couple.
This is what happens when folks go all PC and fuzzy wuzzy. Legal actions have legal consequences.
Hers is all female but his is co-ed. (That is a weird way to put it but I can't think of a better way)
It shouldn't be a problem to move her into his group home. It sounds like his is refusing on the basis of their belief that if you need to live in a group home you can't be "really" married.
This is a rather dangerous argument to make as, followed to it's logical conclusion, it would mean that any marriage where either spouse needs long term care is defacto annulled.
So Sayeth the government. Your marrigae rights BYW then are what the government says they are?
There is a religious aspect to it, but there is also a state issue to it. If they are ok getting married, they should move out and live as a couple.
It was only when government figured out how to tax it marriage fell under government domain rather than GOD's. Believe it or not marriages involving disabled couples or one spouse becoming disabled before marriage have a far better track record than ones who are married and a spouse becomes disabled during their marriage.
This is what happens when folks go all PC and fuzzy wuzzy. Legal actions have legal consequences.
It's not a matter of PC. It's a matter of realities. One poster says move them in with their parents. If the two were born as Menopause babies let's say at the mother being 45 or so and the couple in question is 25 that makes the parents how old then? 70 by my math.
It is a reality parents now in these times of medical advances that often the birth parents will not outlive their disabled kids they gave birth too. If the kids have no siblings or none who can take on their care what happens? It's a serious issue.
Marriage in a case like this isn't as complicated as paper shufflers are making it become. And as another poster stated very often two persons with disabilities who marry are actually strengthened. Persons with disabilities just like others have their strengths and weaknesses.
I'm disabled as is my wife. Her strengths cover my weaknesses and vice versa. Her disability is 100% physical. Mine is partly cognitive abilities involved in some aspects but is not physical. I have also stood up to paper shufflers who thought the state had more rights & authority on the issue of granting permission for my wifes care than our marriage was supposed to give us.
And this from the same liberal, government types who are encouraging young teens to do it?
This frosts me. If they want to get married and their parents don't have a problem with it, it's not anybody's business. Who else are they going to deem unfit to marry and what is the cut off for mental disabilities and the consent to have sex?
There is a solution, he can be get a sex change operation. Somehow I doubt that they are prohibiting same sex roommates from having sex at night.
So many of the posts on this thread have to do with the question: “what shall the State do about this?”
Hello?
FRiends, this is a matter best handled by friends, family, and neighborhoods.
F(orget) the State.
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