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Disabled [retarded married] couple seek life together in group home [banned from living together]
yahoo.com ^ | May 7, 2013 | Frank Eltman

Posted on 05/08/2013 3:14:59 AM PDT by grundle

PORT JEFFERSON, N.Y. (AP) -- With the beaming smiles of newlyweds, Paul Forziano and Hava Samuels hold hands, exchange adoring glances and complete each other's sentences. Their first wedding dance, he recalls, was to the song "Unchained ..." ''Melody," she chimes in.

They spend their days together in the performing arts education center where they met. But every night, they must part ways. Forziano goes to his group home. His wife goes to hers.

The mentally disabled couple is not allowed to share a bedroom by the state-sanctioned nonprofits that run the group homes — a practice the newlyweds and their parents are now challenging in a federal civil rights lawsuit.

"We're very sad when we leave each other," Forziano says. "I want to live with my wife, because I love her."

The couple had been considering marriage for three years before tying the knot last month, and they contend in their lawsuit that they were refused permission from their respective group homes to live together as husband and wife. The couple's parents, also plaintiffs in the lawsuit, said they have been seeking a solution since 2010.

"It's not something we wanted to do, it's something we had to do," said Bonnie Samuels, the mother of the bride.

The lawsuit contends Forziano's facility refused because people requiring the services of a group home are by definition incapable of living as married people, and it says Samuels' home refused because it believes she doesn't have the mental capacity to consent to sex.

(Excerpt) Read more at news.yahoo.com ...


TOPICS: Government; Miscellaneous; US: New York
KEYWORDS: napl
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They are retarded and married but can't find a group home that will allow them to live together. There has to be a solution to this.
1 posted on 05/08/2013 3:14:59 AM PDT by grundle
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To: grundle

I don’t want to rain on their bliss, but how can two retarded adults enter into a binding contract?

Could these folks buy property? Could they enter into an auto loan contract?

Just curious.


2 posted on 05/08/2013 3:27:46 AM PDT by Vermont Lt (Does anybody really know what time it is? Does anybody really care?)
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To: grundle

My question is, who will take care of their children?


3 posted on 05/08/2013 3:33:29 AM PDT by Old_Grouch (65 and AARP-free. Monthly FR contributor.)
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To: grundle
There is a wide variance in the levels of retardation. They should be allowed all considerations of any married couple needing long term care assistance. I've heard people argue it pro and con. A family in my neighborhood had a man disabled by Polio and his wife was retarded. Their daughter was fine last I heard she was a college grad and had married and taken in her parents.

My guess is the couple in this article ended up in group homes likely due to advanced age of their parents or their parents planning ahead. This case would have wide implications for all with disabilities and their right to marry. Marriages with disabilities of spouses involved can and do work. The added cost to the state for this couple would be nil.

4 posted on 05/08/2013 3:36:38 AM PDT by cva66snipe (Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?)
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To: grundle

If they were homosexual the group homes would be falling over themselves to set them up and the zero would call telling them how brave they are to be “so retatded and yet...”[snark]

It does bring up the point: who actually married them and should they have done so? They are obviously incapable of living on their own, so how is this contract valid?
Fact is that they are married. They should not be denied what they can enjoy of each other. It should not take too many $$ resources to accomodate them.


5 posted on 05/08/2013 3:47:25 AM PDT by Adder (No, Mr. Franklin, we could NOT keep it.)
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To: cva66snipe
The added cost to the state for this couple would be nil

not necessarily. possibly establishing a precedence of allowing co-habitation in the group home? and is his home an all-male, hers an all-female? (I forget already what the article said. :P). what's next, then?

I don't know the solution, but I can see both sides.

and you're right...we don't know to what degree these two are mentally-challenged.

6 posted on 05/08/2013 3:48:13 AM PDT by ZinGirl (kids in college....can't afford a tagline right now)
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To: Adder

But should a nonprofit group home set up to accommodate only single and single-sex clients be forced to accommodate a married couple?


7 posted on 05/08/2013 3:54:36 AM PDT by 9YearLurker
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To: ZinGirl
not necessarily. possibly establishing a precedence of allowing co-habitation in the group home? and is his home an all-male, hers an all-female? (I forget already what the article said. :P). what's next, then?

Assisted Living facilities do have married couples living in them where both due to age or disabilities can no longer care for themselves fully. It doesn't mean they need 24/7 supervision just that things like meals etc need to be provided.

I married my girlfriend 28 years ago who is a quadriplegic. Ten years into our marriage I got hit with a disabling condition. Thankfully though I can still take care of our basic needs including cooking. What 5-10 years down the road will bring we don't know. If/when time comes we can no longer live alone what then? BTW both of us are former health care services related workers. Things have changed drastically in the past decade or so and it sounds like New York is behind the curve. They could likely get by OK in a group home for disabled married couples is what I'm saying. Two disabled spouses is not all that uncommon.

8 posted on 05/08/2013 4:01:22 AM PDT by cva66snipe (Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?)
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To: 9YearLurker
But should a nonprofit group home set up to accommodate only single and single-sex clients be forced to accommodate a married couple?

IF they are taking state or federal funds? Yes. If they are a private NPO ran by other outside groups such as churches? NO. The ADA in cases where government funding is involved should apply. But where it is not involved the ADA should not apply.

9 posted on 05/08/2013 4:05:38 AM PDT by cva66snipe (Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?)
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To: Adder

I have never heard of a mentally retarded person being homosexual. They are much too smart for that.


10 posted on 05/08/2013 4:07:01 AM PDT by Venturer
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To: Venturer

There is a lot of indiscriminate sexual activity in institutions, it just can’t be completely prevented.


11 posted on 05/08/2013 4:11:54 AM PDT by SWAMPSNIPER (The Second Amendment, a Matter of Fact, Not a Matter of Opinion)
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To: Vermont Lt

Their parents could have signed off on the contract as their power of attorney/conservator.


12 posted on 05/08/2013 4:26:47 AM PDT by autumnraine (America how long will you be so deaf and dumb to thoe tumbril wheels carrying you to the guillotine?)
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To: Old_Grouch

Who says they will have any?

There is birth control.


13 posted on 05/08/2013 4:27:30 AM PDT by autumnraine (America how long will you be so deaf and dumb to thoe tumbril wheels carrying you to the guillotine?)
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To: grundle

As a taxpayer (so presumably supporting these people), my position is that I should not have to fork out more money to fund anything beyond the basics. In particular, they should not be having children that I then have to pay for. (This goes double for welfare recipients.)

That said, it seems that there should be some measure of basic human compassion that would allow them to live together. I would think that with all the social services workers we have, the could come up with some solution to this.


14 posted on 05/08/2013 4:35:12 AM PDT by generally (Don't be stupid. We have politicians for that.)
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To: grundle

If they can get past this little obstacle, I suspect they both will live happily ever after together........good for them!


15 posted on 05/08/2013 4:36:08 AM PDT by Hot Tabasco (This space for rent)
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To: cva66snipe

I presume they are taking federal funds, but I still don’t see how or why that should pertain. I’d personally do away with the excesses of the ADA and with federal funding for many, many things. But the idea that a social service agency can’t provide any government-funded services to anyone unless it provides the said services for everyone seems particularly baseless to me.


16 posted on 05/08/2013 5:00:15 AM PDT by 9YearLurker
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To: autumnraine

You sure can’t mandate sterilization, and considering how many people who can manage to live on their own can’t manage the faithful use of birth control, I think you might be expecting a bit much in this circumstance.


17 posted on 05/08/2013 5:01:29 AM PDT by 9YearLurker
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To: 9YearLurker

One of the implants, perhaps. Lasts several years, goes in the upper arm, requires no special care after the insertion point heals.

Seems like it would be absolutely ideal in this case, since there’s nothing to forget or mess up, only basic wound care for a few days after it’s put in.


18 posted on 05/08/2013 5:09:40 AM PDT by Fire_on_High (RIP City of Heroes and Paragon Studios, victim of the Obamaconomy.)
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To: grundle

Bump


19 posted on 05/08/2013 5:10:15 AM PDT by lowbridge
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To: Fire_on_High

Yeah, you’re probably right.


20 posted on 05/08/2013 5:12:51 AM PDT by 9YearLurker
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To: 9YearLurker

You need to get up to speed on the modern forms of birth control. It’s not just the pill or condom anymore. There is an implant that lasts for three years at a time. You literally get a shot with the implant, takes about 2 minutes for the whole procedure. Don’t have to think about it until time to replace it.


21 posted on 05/08/2013 5:13:28 AM PDT by autumnraine (America how long will you be so deaf and dumb to thoe tumbril wheels carrying you to the guillotine?)
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To: cva66snipe

I think you’re right about services for disabled couples.

But I suspect for many group homes for the mentally retarded, things are much easier to handle if they are single-sex.

It’s good to have a variety of things for a variety of people, but not to force everything to be for everyone.


22 posted on 05/08/2013 5:15:12 AM PDT by 9YearLurker
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To: grundle

Weird.

They cannot function on their own in society yet, they were allowed to enter into a contract and “consensual” relationship?

Either they require care or they do not.


23 posted on 05/08/2013 5:25:05 AM PDT by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously, you won't live through it anyway)
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To: generally

I agree, these parents should have taken the kids in, everybody wants the state to do every folking thing they don’t want to do and that is part of the problem is all these people wanting to make their problem someone else’s problem

I have a millionaire friend whose daughter is practically without a brain and their solution was to get the state to take her on, pixes me off


24 posted on 05/08/2013 5:38:08 AM PDT by yldstrk (My heroes have always been cowboys)
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To: Vendome


'Care' comes in a wide range. Everything from spoon feeding you can changing your diaper to just helping you with balancing your check book and reminding you to pay the bills. Assisted living facilities come in a wide range of flavors too. Love and marriage does not require much physical or mental capability.

25 posted on 05/08/2013 5:39:47 AM PDT by TalonDJ
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To: Vendome

“They cannot function on their own in society yet, they were allowed to enter into a contract and “consensual” relationship? Either they require care or they do not.”

That’s way to simplistic of a view IMHO.


26 posted on 05/08/2013 6:21:43 AM PDT by babygene ( .)
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To: Vermont Lt

What about the couple in the white house?


27 posted on 05/08/2013 6:23:30 AM PDT by zzwhale
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To: 9YearLurker

I see your point. You can’t have mixed singles as it were. Not for the couples sake but for the sake of the single folks.

But homes seem to be expressing an “ick” factor that would have us lableled as bigoted and prejudiced against the disabled. Not to mention paternalistic: she doesn’t know how to consent to sex? Really? You[they] know that how?

Perhaps a “new paradigm” can be created. They love creating paradigms all the time.


28 posted on 05/08/2013 6:28:53 AM PDT by Adder (No, Mr. Franklin, we could NOT keep it.)
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To: grundle

Would it be possible for the parents of the couple to get them an apartment or something?


29 posted on 05/08/2013 6:42:50 AM PDT by pnz1
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To: 9YearLurker

You sure can mandate it. It’s been done before for folks with inheritable disabilities.

Aggravates me to no end to see those same ideas defended here.


30 posted on 05/08/2013 6:43:27 AM PDT by JCBreckenridge (Texas is a state of mind - Steinbeck)
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To: grundle
Oh pooh! This shouldn't be a problem, one room instead of two. As far as sex etc., is everyone pretending like handicapped adults (or kids) don't have it? If so please take lessons and join the real world. Whether they are private pay or public assistance should make no difference. This should be a minor problem, why in the world it is being made into such a crisis is what we should really be questioning. Sounds like a typical bureaucratic SNAFU. Kudos to two people who had the decency to marry instead of just “hooking up”!
31 posted on 05/08/2013 7:07:24 AM PDT by pepperdog ( I still get a thrill up my leg when spell check doesn't recognize the name/word Obama!)
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To: Adder

I don’t work with disabled women, but I can imagine having the lack of an ability to consent being a real issue.

It’s okay with me if women-only homes for the disabled choose to stay that way. (Even though already I’m sure they’d be obligated to take in those who ‘identify as’ women, but are men.)


32 posted on 05/08/2013 7:21:05 AM PDT by 9YearLurker
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To: grundle

I agree. Surely, there is a group home somewhere that will take this couple.

Disabled adults can lead very lonely lives, so the quality of their lives could greatly improve if they have one another.

May God bless them.


33 posted on 05/08/2013 7:31:14 AM PDT by GSD Lover
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To: autumnraine

And we see many times over that ppl (evidently of higher intelligence) who are required to take their medication on a regular basis, do so religiously...right! What could possibly go wrong?


34 posted on 05/08/2013 7:47:25 AM PDT by SgtHooper (The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list.)
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To: Vermont Lt

generally they don’t enter into contracts.

contracts for commerce are one thing.

marriage is an institution.
akin to voting rights.

They may never have be adjudicted incompetent enough on THOSE specific issues.


35 posted on 05/08/2013 8:30:32 AM PDT by longtermmemmory (VOTE! http://www.senate.gov and http://www.house.gov)
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To: SgtHooper

What I posted to someone else who also thinks that the only option of birth control is the pill I guess.

You need to get up to speed on the modern forms of birth control. It’s not just the pill or condom anymore. There is an implant that lasts for three years at a time. You literally get a shot with the implant, takes about 2 minutes for the whole procedure. Don’t have to think about it until time to replace it.

If anything, this makes me angrier at abortions. There are things you don’t even have to THINK about and it will you from getting pregnant. No excuses.


36 posted on 05/08/2013 8:31:52 AM PDT by autumnraine (America how long will you be so deaf and dumb to thoe tumbril wheels carrying you to the guillotine?)
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To: Adder

the issue must be production of children. If children are produced what does the group home do?


37 posted on 05/08/2013 8:32:23 AM PDT by longtermmemmory (VOTE! http://www.senate.gov and http://www.house.gov)
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To: Vermont Lt

Retarded Dims walk the streets and vote. How could this be any worse.


38 posted on 05/08/2013 9:00:52 AM PDT by WhirlwindAttack (There is so much I could say. But I'm smart enough not to.)
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To: grundle
I have a retarded aunt.

She is now 86. She was forceps damaged in a hard delivery at a New Mexico road camp in the 20s

Slightly retarded..like touched.

She had boyfriends but nothing beyond playfulness

they were all Downs boys and died pretty young...

these girls are very vulnerable sexually...to say the least

we help take care of her, she's been a joy and keeps on ticking..she is one of only 3-4 older relatives I know have

i’m ambivalent on this

39 posted on 05/08/2013 9:14:34 AM PDT by wardaddy (wanna know how my kin felt during Reconstruction in Mississippi, you fixin to find out firsthand)
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To: longtermmemmory

Good point also.

All of this should have been an issue before they were allowed to be married to the huzzahs of the gathered adoring assemblage. SOMEBODY thought they should be allowed to be married because disabled people are people too!
[Please note the cynical snark here...]

But now they want to treat them as if their little playtime is over. “You had your wedding and, while it was so much fun, you can’t REALLY be married.” The couple is apprently aware enough that they know they are married and they know they should be together.

Manybe Moms and Dads step in and come up with their own home and 24hr care or something. I don’t know.

Do we as a society WANT to encourage people who cannot function on their own get married? I don’t, but someone did. Now that community should do something to let it work out: a small apartment building for couples maybe? Or a dorm type situation?


40 posted on 05/08/2013 9:36:27 AM PDT by Adder (No, Mr. Franklin, we could NOT keep it.)
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To: autumnraine

I know this, and agree with most points. But you know as well, that any slip-up results in a child being “raised” by the state. This is a sensitive topic given the fundamental Consitutional right to bear and raise a child, however distorted the results from that have become over the years. There are many different levels of retardation, and some that would have no effect on the ability to raise a child. But here we are presented with two individuals in separate institutions! Without knowing more, this must be approached smartly.


41 posted on 05/08/2013 10:47:13 AM PDT by SgtHooper (The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list.)
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To: 9YearLurker
I think you’re right about services for disabled couples. But I suspect for many group homes for the mentally retarded, things are much easier to handle if they are single-sex. It’s good to have a variety of things for a variety of people, but not to force everything to be for everyone.

Mental retardation can come long after birth. It can happen at any point between birth and death such as a traumatic head injury {in adults}, excessive prolonged fever in childhood or adulthood, etc.

There's several things going on. One thing is kids who are born with mental retardation who sometimes did not live to puberty are being helped and the same with head trauma patients. Much of it depends upon the persons capacity. There are certainly mentally retarded persons who can and should be allowed to marry. If we say no to them then do we say no to persons with physical disabilities for the same reasons? Force divorce?

I've worked in health care facilities which did have some developmental impaired patients both from birth and accidents most of them could had they been allowed to married. Should elderly patients with onset of Dementia be separated? One building at the facility I worked in was a barracks type of set up. The building was basically for persons whom the state had booted from a nearby mental institute years before but could not take care of themselves. The men were in one wing the women in another. A few more were in patient rooms in another part of the facility.

This may sound like B.S. to you but the patients in nursing homes etc do engage in sexual activity with each other sometimes. Just ask anyone who has worked in one and they can tell you. By law unless it is a forced act the employees can not interfere.

42 posted on 05/08/2013 11:44:03 AM PDT by cva66snipe (Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?)
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To: yldstrk
I agree, these parents should have taken the kids in, everybody wants the state to do every folking thing they don’t want to do and that is part of the problem is all these people wanting to make their problem someone else’s problem

Parents don't live forever thus the reason for the group homes usually. If the persons in question were born in the parents early 40's and are now let's say 30 then how old are the parents? The same for kids born with CP, MD, or physical ailments. They all if they survive become adults at some point. More and more are surviving due to medical advances.

BTW I am a strong advocate for family caring for family. I am also experienced enough to understand sometimes that can't work. It takes someone with the right disposition to care for someone long term otherwise abuse can occur.

There is another aspect many persons don't know as well. In many states in relation to mental development and even mental illness is the fact often times families loose say. The laws for mental health care are not the same for physical care. It's sad, I think it's wrong, but often to get a severely retarded child help the only course of action allowed by law is through the state.

There is another not so pleasant aspect to this is that some children with severe retardation can become very violent. They most often do end up in skilled care mental health facilities. The only way they can be placed there in some states is by making them a Ward Of The State. The legalities stink.

43 posted on 05/08/2013 12:01:50 PM PDT by cva66snipe (Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?)
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To: cva66snipe

As I said, it’s good to have a variety of solutions for a variety of people, and I do expect that some mentally retarded women, especially, are best served in female-only group homes.


44 posted on 05/08/2013 12:02:57 PM PDT by 9YearLurker
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To: 9YearLurker
I beleieve the non federal and state funding issue of the ADA for the most part forcing unfunded mandates on the private sector should be tossed. The ADA should only for the most part apply to venues where state or federal funding is directly involved. Most of it should involve access issues especially to taxpayer funded buildings etc.

The ADA has created far more issues than it solved. Even at that there has to be practical limitations grandfathered in. For example you can't make a 100 year old structure such as a school or courthouse meet ADA standards.

At the same time the ADA should also be written so families in difficult situations have legal say. Let me give you a quick example of what I'm saying. Suppose you are given an antidepressant to help stop smoking. Suppose due to an adverse reaction to that medication your behavior becomes severly pyschotic. Do you not believe your spouse should be able to sign for your treatement the same as if you were unconscious from an accident? The same hospital in a state that allows you to sign surgery consent forms for spouse will by law deny you any say in mental health treatment of a spouse or your adult offspring.

45 posted on 05/08/2013 12:20:18 PM PDT by cva66snipe (Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?)
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To: cva66snipe

Interesting. Yes, we’ve clearly gone overboard on some mental health ‘rights’. I could see where not all family involvements would be benign, and so it is a sticky wicket, however.

And the idea that employers should be forced to hire and pay for accommodations to hire the disabled is offensive to me. That could be a great basis for charity, or failing that, maybe the government. But it is completely unfair to force individual employers to foot that bill.


46 posted on 05/08/2013 12:42:16 PM PDT by 9YearLurker
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To: 9YearLurker

Yea I agree. In reality most jobs for the disabled come at an added cost to employers. Even as far as hiring the person an assistant. Monetary wise it is cheaper to pay disability.


47 posted on 05/08/2013 12:54:41 PM PDT by cva66snipe (Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?)
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To: grundle

There is. Their parents can have them move in with them.


48 posted on 05/08/2013 12:57:29 PM PDT by Lurker (Violence is rarely the answer. But when it is it is the only answer.)
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To: ZinGirl

It might even end up costing them less money, if the two of them living together can help each other and require less assistance from the facility. Maybe he knows how to work the dishwasher, while she knows how to do the laundry, for example.


49 posted on 05/08/2013 4:26:32 PM PDT by Boogieman
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To: longtermmemmory

Marriage is an absolute legal contract that comes with tax benefits, survivor benefits, etc.

There is a religious aspect to it, but there is also a state issue to it. If they are ok getting married, they should move out and live as a couple.

This is what happens when folks go all PC and fuzzy wuzzy. Legal actions have legal consequences.


50 posted on 05/08/2013 4:32:54 PM PDT by Vermont Lt (Does anybody really know what time it is? Does anybody really care?)
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