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Is the saying "Energy cannot be created nor destroyed" proof of God?
4/2/13 | grandjedimasteryoda

Posted on 05/02/2013 1:30:00 PM PDT by GrandJediMasterYoda

Sorry for posting this, but I love the minds that are on Freep and would be very curious to see what some of the answers would be. I am far from being a physicist, but I do know the saying "Energy cannot be created nor destroyed". If this is so, then wouldn't it mean that energy is infinite? And if so, wouldn't this be proof of God? And 2nd, wouldn't it mean that there is no such thing as death or "real death"? Because if this energy is infinite, then eventually it will form into you again?


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: bong; god; vanity
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1 posted on 05/02/2013 1:30:00 PM PDT by GrandJediMasterYoda
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To: GrandJediMasterYoda

Do you consider nuclear actions that convert mass to energy, creating energy?


2 posted on 05/02/2013 1:31:54 PM PDT by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: GrandJediMasterYoda

This has always been my understanding. The concept of the ‘soul’, while not observable directly, is something thats effects are seen and then not seen upon death. Where does this energy go? Well, in my belief, to Heaven.

The fact is, everything cannot come from nothing. God indeed shaped out universe. You need only look out the window to see intelligent design in every blade of grass.


3 posted on 05/02/2013 1:33:22 PM PDT by Viennacon
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To: thackney

Emc2, buddy


4 posted on 05/02/2013 1:34:04 PM PDT by MrB (The difference between a Humanist and a Satanist - the latter admits whom he's working for)
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To: GrandJediMasterYoda

Still need proof of GOD?
Look around, check the Bible, find Jesus.


5 posted on 05/02/2013 1:35:06 PM PDT by Leo Carpathian (FReeeeepeesssssed)
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To: thackney

I don’t know, but I see what you are saying. If that happens then the saying “Energy cannot be created...” to be false.


6 posted on 05/02/2013 1:35:43 PM PDT by GrandJediMasterYoda (Someday our schools will teach the difference between "lose" and "loose")
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To: Leo Carpathian

To me the fact that *anything* exists is proof enough to me that God exists, but what I am trying to do here is shut up the Atheists with fact.


7 posted on 05/02/2013 1:38:29 PM PDT by GrandJediMasterYoda (Someday our schools will teach the difference between "lose" and "loose")
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To: GrandJediMasterYoda

Nuclear reactions convert mass to energy, they don’t create energy out of nothing.


8 posted on 05/02/2013 1:38:43 PM PDT by cripplecreek (REMEMBER THE RIVER RAISIN!)
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To: GrandJediMasterYoda

Remember the second part is “it just changes state”. Matter is energy, energy is matter, you can convert one to the other but nothing gets created. And no there’s still real death, as your life energy changes state to inert matter and eventually worm food.


9 posted on 05/02/2013 1:42:04 PM PDT by discostu (Not just another moon faced assassin of joy.)
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To: thackney

I thought that mass has energy only in a different state, like it’s potential energy waiting to be released.


10 posted on 05/02/2013 1:42:09 PM PDT by virgil
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To: GrandJediMasterYoda
If that happens

It happens. Nuclear explosions.

E=MC2

A little mass is a lot of energy.

http://www.chem.purdue.edu/gchelp/howtosolveit/Nuclear/nuclear_binding_energy.htm

11 posted on 05/02/2013 1:44:33 PM PDT by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: GrandJediMasterYoda
I think that we can convert many things, and we can change many things, and we can assemble many things...but creation belongs uniquely to God.

We don't know how He did it. Perhaps he converted a vast energy supply into matter. However He did it, I believe that He did it.

12 posted on 05/02/2013 1:45:11 PM PDT by Sender (It's never too late to be who you could have been.)
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To: virgil

http://www.chem.purdue.edu/gchelp/howtosolveit/Nuclear/Energy_of_Nuclear_Change.htm


13 posted on 05/02/2013 1:46:07 PM PDT by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: GrandJediMasterYoda

No. It is a statement of physics, not a proof of God.


14 posted on 05/02/2013 1:48:05 PM PDT by Rockingham
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To: virgil

Exactly my thought! Mass is a different state of energy, energy congealed or whatever form they call it. Einstein said this: “Energy cannot be created nor destroyed”...Of so, then that means it ALWAYS existed. And we know mass comes from energy. If that is the case, then there is no such thing as death. How can there be? If you take infinity into the equation, eventually that energy will form into you again. The monkeys banging on a typewriter will eventually write Shakespeare.


15 posted on 05/02/2013 1:49:25 PM PDT by GrandJediMasterYoda (Someday our schools will teach the difference between "lose" and "loose")
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To: GrandJediMasterYoda

One episode of “The Universe” on the history channel deals with God vs Random creation and its a very interesting to hear the astrophysicists on both sides talk about it.

On one side you have Hawking and the rest of the angry atheist crowd saying it just happened. I got the impression they’re angry at the fact that they’re left with two answers. It happened for no reason that we can explain or it happened because God wanted it to happen.

On the other side are those astrophysicist/mathematicians who lean strongly in favor of some kind of intelligent design. One says that the odds were stacked so far against the formation of the universe that its literally impossible without some kind of intelligent design. Basically one subatomic particle out of place at the moment of creation and the universe wouldn’t exist.


16 posted on 05/02/2013 1:50:35 PM PDT by cripplecreek (REMEMBER THE RIVER RAISIN!)
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To: GrandJediMasterYoda

The Law of the Conservation of Energy. Energy cannot be created or destroyed; it can only be changed from one form to another. God created the heavens and the earth ex nihilo (i.e., out of nothing). Of course everyone them naturally says “where did God come from.” Scripture has an answer for that. In Exodus 3:14 moses asks god “who shall I say sent me?” God replies I am that I am. God is the eternal creator, the “unmoved mover” of Aristotle.


17 posted on 05/02/2013 1:54:18 PM PDT by Fungi
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To: GrandJediMasterYoda

If you wish to quantify the infinite then yes - the first law is the essence of God. All encompassing and eternal - every that was, is or shall be is derived from the “energy” that is God. All matter is energy on loan that must eventually return to whence it came. So yes, Virginia, there is a God - and what a great god He is.


18 posted on 05/02/2013 1:54:35 PM PDT by FormerRep
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To: discostu
And no there’s still real death, as your life energy changes state to inert matter and eventually worm food.

Not necessarily, think of your brain as a cell phone or WI-FI sending out wireless brain waves to God and being recorded in His laptop.

19 posted on 05/02/2013 1:54:49 PM PDT by AmusedBystander (The philosophy of the school room in one generation will be the philosophy of government in the next)
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To: thackney

Is the process to which you speak creating energy, or converting energy?


20 posted on 05/02/2013 2:00:21 PM PDT by SoldierDad (Proud dad of an Army Soldier who has survived 24 months of Combat deployment.)
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To: FormerRep

In the sea of energy god is the predelection to life.


21 posted on 05/02/2013 2:06:55 PM PDT by jaunpaz
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To: GrandJediMasterYoda

22 posted on 05/02/2013 2:09:23 PM PDT by JoeProBono (A closed mouth gathers no feet - Mater tua caligas exercitus gerit ;-{)
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To: GrandJediMasterYoda

“Energy cannot be created nor destroyed”.

I’ll accept that as a first principle (although as written it doesn’t support the existence of a God who created everything.)

Based on that first principle, you ask “If this is so, then wouldn’t it mean that energy is infinite?” but why would it? Why would the fact that energy can’t be created or destroyed mean that energy is infinite?

Based on the assumption that energy is infinite, you ask “...wouldn’t this be proof of God?” but again, why would it? Why would energy being infinite be proof of God?

Based on the assumption that energy is infinite, you also ask “...wouldn’t it mean that there is no such thing as death or “real death”?” But this time you give a reason: “Because if this energy is infinite, then eventually it will form into you again?”

But why and who says, besides you, that because this energy is infinite that it would eventually form into you again.

I’d say that if the energy is infinite, there are infinite possibilities for the something into which it will eventually form and there is no reason that something would necessarily or even likely be “you” or anything it had formed into before.


23 posted on 05/02/2013 2:10:36 PM PDT by KrisKrinkle (Blessed be those who know the depth and breadth of their ignorance. Cursed be those who don't.)
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To: GrandJediMasterYoda

Oft times the unknown is unknown because it is unknowable.

How many angels can stand on the head of a pin?


24 posted on 05/02/2013 2:14:35 PM PDT by count-your-change (you don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough)
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To: GrandJediMasterYoda
The physical sciences are incredible at defining the physical world, but they never touch consciousness, with the exception of quantum mechanics, which requires a conscious observer for certain phenomena to occur.

God is a conscious being. You aren't going to find Him in the physical sciences.

25 posted on 05/02/2013 2:16:23 PM PDT by E. Pluribus Unum (Islam is a religion of peace, and Moslems reserve the right to behead anyone who says otherwise.)
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To: GrandJediMasterYoda
Which one? I see references to thousands of gods.

In short, no. It is impossible to prove or disprove god. You either believe or you don't. Belief is like a glorified opinion. No way to prove your opinion right or wrong until the truth manifests itself.

26 posted on 05/02/2013 2:18:32 PM PDT by elkfersupper ( Member of the Original Defiant Class)
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To: cripplecreek

Precisely as Cripplecreek suggested, energy and mass are interchangeable, but niether can be created from nothing.

Sort of.

Subatomic paricles are “theoretically” spontaneously pop into and out of existence all the time. This is the scientific community’s theory-du-jour on why the speed of light may be variable, and ultimately the basis for Hawking’s assertion that there need be no God for a “big bang” to happen.

To me, it’s a matter of perspective. You can look at the universe as the creator of God, I suppose (by proxy of human invention.) Or you can look at God as the creator of the universe.

So many things had to be exactly right for the universe to create US, however, that for me the question sort of answers itself. :)

To answer your question in short, however - No, being unable to create from nothing does not prove the existence of God scientifically. Physicists would love to fricasee your brain trying to grasp quantum physics or another exotic explanation for genesis.

I prefer to apply Occam’s Razor here and submit that upon examination of the scientific community’s best theories on the origins of time, space, matter, and energy - I think their dogma takes more of a leap of faith than picking the deity of your choice to credit creation to.


27 posted on 05/02/2013 2:20:15 PM PDT by Heavyrunner (Socialize this.)
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To: thackney

“Do you consider nuclear actions that convert mass to energy, creating energy?”

The saying, that energy cannot be created or destroyed, is really saying that the energy in the universe is whatever energy the universe has, whether in the form of the “conserved” energy in matter, or energy being given off when matter is converted to energy, which includes energy that has not yet condensed back to matter and energy that is in the process of converting back to matter. It’s all the energy the universe has.

When physicists speak of matter, they express matter mathematically in values of the “conserved energy” any element of matter contains.

Matter and energy are different states of “matter” in one sense or “energy” in another sense. It depends on the context.


28 posted on 05/02/2013 2:23:52 PM PDT by Wuli
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To: GrandJediMasterYoda

The belief in God helps humans explain why matter exists and the forms that it takes. Such as self awareness, soul etc.

Some people accept their own beliefs as proof of whatever they believe in. Some require scientific proof (science as we understand it so far) before they believe anything.

Infinity makes anything possible.


29 posted on 05/02/2013 2:23:56 PM PDT by soycd
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To: GrandJediMasterYoda

“If this is so, then wouldn’t it mean that energy is infinite?”

No, the energy is not infinite, it just can’t *poof* vanish. It can change into matter, and back into energy, but there is a finite amount of it.

“And 2nd, wouldn’t it mean that there is no such thing as death or “real death”? Because if this energy is infinite, then eventually it will form into you again?”

No, because the energy and matter in your body can transform in ways that are non-reversible, so that no natural process would ever reassemble “you” out of the remaining constituent parts in their transmuted forms. Some supernatural process could do it, but it won’t happen on its own, no matter how long you wait.


30 posted on 05/02/2013 2:26:14 PM PDT by Boogieman
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To: GrandJediMasterYoda

Thomas Aquinas’ held that new matter cannot be created nor can matter be destroyed, only changed. Not sure where the “energy” came from. Missed that in my BA in philosophy.


31 posted on 05/02/2013 2:26:30 PM PDT by Repulican Donkey
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To: virgil

Well one way to look at mass is that it IS potential energy, since every iota of matter contains potential energy.


32 posted on 05/02/2013 2:28:01 PM PDT by Boogieman
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To: MrB; GrandJediMasterYoda

I think E=MC2 is proof of God. We can create energy from mass but the equation works the other way too. God can create mass from energy. Seems to me that’s what the big bang was all about.


33 posted on 05/02/2013 2:29:12 PM PDT by BubbaBasher ("Liberty will not long survive the total extinction of morals" - Sam Adams)
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To: KrisKrinkle

Because just read that sentence again: “Energy cannot be created nor destroyed”...That means “Energy is infinite” What else could it mean? It means it has no beginning nor end, it is infinite. And if it is infinite, then time has no bearing on what happens to it. Time is out of the equation. Whether it’s a billion years from now, a trillion, 50 google years from now, eventually it will form into mass, atoms, molecules that form exactly into the same cells, neurons, memories that make you what you are right now. What I am saying, is that if energy is infinite then this is proof of God. It does not mean that God is an old man in the sky programming the universe like a computer programmer, but an infinite being that is energy where time has no bearing but does in fact exist. Everything that exists is God. I always use to laugh when Davey use to say on that show “Davey and Goliath” “God is everywhere”..He was so right.


34 posted on 05/02/2013 2:30:16 PM PDT by GrandJediMasterYoda (Someday our schools will teach the difference between "lose" and "loose")
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To: GrandJediMasterYoda
Not so simple. The God described in the Bible is spirit. Time and dimensions are of Him, and external to Him, made by Him out of nothing, by which mass and energy are possible. He is Life, and able to impart spirit and life to commingle with (and separable from) matter. Start from there.
35 posted on 05/02/2013 2:30:54 PM PDT by imardmd1
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To: GrandJediMasterYoda

If you take a computer and turn it off or destroy it, is it still processing in some other dimension or way? If the answer is no then you idea also has the answer no. When things stop functioning that is that


36 posted on 05/02/2013 2:32:22 PM PDT by Monty22002
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To: GrandJediMasterYoda

37 posted on 05/02/2013 2:38:54 PM PDT by lonevoice (Today I broke my personal record for most consecutive days lived)
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To: E. Pluribus Unum

That’s a wonderful answer


38 posted on 05/02/2013 2:40:47 PM PDT by lonevoice (Today I broke my personal record for most consecutive days lived)
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To: GrandJediMasterYoda
I would argue no. An eternal, uncaused being can be switched seamlessly for an eternal, uncaused universe. It's just kicking the can down the road another step (if a universe needs a creator why wouldn't a universe creator need a creator?). No matter which you choose to believe in, it's still all a matter of faith at this point. People believe, but nobody living knows.
39 posted on 05/02/2013 2:51:03 PM PDT by Trod Upon (Every penny given to film and TV media companies goes right into enemy coffers. Starve them out!)
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To: GrandJediMasterYoda

“”” “Energy cannot be created nor destroyed”. If this is so, then wouldn’t it mean that energy is infinite?”

To physicists the statement is true, but to them it neither means there is infinite energy and it might mean there is only a finite amount of energy; it only means E=M*Csquared AND also that M=E/Csquared.

At present, the understanding of physicsts is that whether the universe is infinite (a “universe” that includes an infinite “vacumn”/”space” that matter/energy-energy/matter expands into) or finite (as though there is an ultimate boundary to the universe), but either way it only contains the energy it contains, though the arrangement of energy and matter (energy “condensed” or “conserved”) is constantly changing.

What astronomers see when they say the universe is “expanding” is not that it is containing either more energy or more mass all the time, but simply that the vacumn (space) between clusters of energy/matter keeps getting larger - everything keeps moving further apart.

Since present theories suggest that the amount of energ/matter-matter/energy in the universe is most likely finite, there are different theories about about the course the “expanding” universe will take.

“The three possible types of expanding universes are called open, flat, and closed universes. If the universe were open, it would expand forever. If the universe were flat, it would also expand forever, but the expansion rate would slow to zero after an infinite amount of time. If the universe were closed, it would eventually stop expanding and recollapse on itself, possibly leading to another big bang. In all three cases, the expansion slows, and the force that causes the slowing is gravity.”

http://skyserver.sdss.org/dr1/en/astro/universe/universe.asp

As for G-d; none of it proves or disproves G-d.


40 posted on 05/02/2013 2:52:45 PM PDT by Wuli
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To: lonevoice

LMAO!!! No, I ain’t in that state...yet.


41 posted on 05/02/2013 2:56:30 PM PDT by GrandJediMasterYoda (Someday our schools will teach the difference between "lose" and "loose")
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To: GrandJediMasterYoda

Neither matter nor energy can be created or destroyed. They can only change form.

Now, scientists have pretty well determined that matter is just compressed energy, and quantum theory teaches us that there is nothing in existence but energy and information. (The information is what forms the energy into its myriad forms.)

The implication is that matter is simply compressed consciousness. (”Consciousness is the ground of all being.” — Dr. Amit Goswami)

And that Consciousness that is the essential Thing that forms all that is, is God.


42 posted on 05/02/2013 2:59:22 PM PDT by TBP (Obama lies, Granny dies.)
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To: GrandJediMasterYoda
but what I am trying to do here is shut up the Atheists with fact.

Empty the oceans, its a simpler task.

43 posted on 05/02/2013 2:59:35 PM PDT by Raycpa
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To: GrandJediMasterYoda

To me that means that matter and energy are eternal. They have always existed and they always will. Something that can’t be created or destroyed can’t have a beginning or an ending.


44 posted on 05/02/2013 3:02:22 PM PDT by albionin
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To: GrandJediMasterYoda
If this is so, then wouldn't it mean that energy is infinite?

Yes, and that Infinite Energy is the Thing we call God.

And if so, wouldn't this be proof of God?

Proof? AS in deductive, syllogistic, And 2nd, wouldn't it mean that there ilogical proof? There isn't any. Would it tend to "prove God inductively? Absolutely.

That there is no such thing as death or "real death"?

If God is infinite and eternal and we are made in the image and likeness of God, wouldn't we be infinite and eternal?

Perhaps not in this particular form, though. Remember, although energy and matter cannot be created or destroyed, they can change form.

Because if this energy is infinite, then eventually it will form into you again?

Very unlikely. It would re-form into something new. Your body is buried, you fertilize the Earth, and the flowers that grow use the same energy-as-matter that was once "you."

45 posted on 05/02/2013 3:04:11 PM PDT by TBP (Obama lies, Granny dies.)
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To: Wuli

Best explanation yet! Thanks!


46 posted on 05/02/2013 3:10:22 PM PDT by GrandJediMasterYoda (Someday our schools will teach the difference between "lose" and "loose")
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To: elkfersupper
that's ultimately why it's called "faith" and not "the G_D theorem". At some point either you believe or you don't, and for your own reasons and no one elses.

CC

47 posted on 05/02/2013 3:10:42 PM PDT by Celtic Conservative (tease not the dragon for thou art crunchy when roasted and taste good with ketchup)
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To: GrandJediMasterYoda

I tend to think of it this way ...

First and most important proof of God is Scripture.

Then comes the existence of the conscience and the moral sense

Then our innate hunger for completeness (where there is hunger, isn’t there food?)

Then the things for which science.does not have an adequate explanation ... ie the various manifestations of eternity ... Infinite time, infinite space, infinite divisibility, etc

Lastly, historical and archeological evidence


48 posted on 05/02/2013 3:11:23 PM PDT by dinoparty
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To: GrandJediMasterYoda

The best argument I can offer an atheist is the existence of love, as well as faith and hope.

I know the counterargument. It is that these attributes of faith, hope and love have arrived because they have aided man to become civilized.

Even granting that, when I hear music, read poetry and see art created by someone who is attempting to express love it affects something deep within me. My soul yearns for love like no other earthly desire be it food, shelter and even air to breath.

I do not see any arguments that can convince the mind that is unwilling to see, hear or taste God’s love for us. I only see ways our hearts are touched by the affects of God’s love in our lives.

____________________

1 Corinthians 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.


49 posted on 05/02/2013 3:13:44 PM PDT by Raycpa
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To: thackney

Energy can be transferred it cannot be created or destroyed.


50 posted on 05/02/2013 3:14:14 PM PDT by NoLibZone (None here can be puzzled by why Jews walked into the cars so quietly- we are walking up the planks.)
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