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San Francisco’s Black Talon Ban Comes a Little Too Late (Ammo Discontinued 20 Years Ago)
Guns.com ^ | 4/16/13 | Max Slowik

Posted on 04/16/2013 7:03:10 PM PDT by DogByte6RER

winchester black talon photo: Black Talon .45 blacktalon2.jpg

San Francisco’s Black Talon Ban Comes a Little Too Late

In the massive surge to draft new gun control legislation across the nation, you could be forgiven for not noticing the local San Francisco push to ban hollowpoint ammo.

Specifically, the new law bans Winchester Black Talons. This is interesting if for only the fact that Winchester hasn’t made Black Talon ammunition for two decades.

Why ban the sale of practically nonexistent ammo? California’s history of shooting sprees is at the heart of the issue. Following the 101 California Street shooting, where Gian Luigi Ferri used a blend of ammo, notably including Black Talons, along with a pair of modified TEC-9s to shoot up the wrong office, killing eight people and injuring six others before committing suicide.

And that is why the legislation specifically targets one brand of ammo. It also bans the sale of any ammo “that has physical properties resulting in ballistics performance identical to such ammunition.”

While that could potentially encapsulate modern hollowpoint ammo, it’s not likely to. Although Black Talons were the predecessors to Winchester’s current lines of expanding ammo, including Ranger-T and PDX1 hollowpoints, Winchester’s recent designs are not “identical” in performance by any indication.

The fact of the matter is that bullet design has continued to develop and improve, yielding new products that perform much differently — that is to say, better — than the old Black Talons. And anything not Black Talon is on the OK list, unless it’s for departmental use.

The bill goes on to ban the commercial sale of ammo that’s labeled “for law enforcement only,” unless you are indeed in uniform. This is where things get a lot more vague (.pdf).

“Ammunition designated by its manufacturer for purchase by law enforcement or military agencies only, unless other ammunition is available to the general public that has physical properties resulting in ballistics performance identical to such ammunition.”

This is awkward because you’d be hard-pressed to find two cartridges from the same box that have identical ballistics performance. And identical how? Compared to factory numbers? Compared to the performance of the cartridges operating in your firearm? And what’s being measured? Velocity? Penetration in ballistics gelatin? Retained weight?

While the ordnance doesn’t codify the definition of identical performance, it does charge the city with creating a list of prohibited ammo types. This doesn’t mean that ammo not on the list is safe to own, which is why the NRA is currently filing suit against the city.

“[The] NRA sought more specific information from SFPD, but it wasn’t provided in the SFPD’s letter. For example, NRA experts inquired about the testing procedures that would be performed to determine whether ballistics performances are identical in all respects. And NRA sought detailed information regarding the ballistics performance for Black Talon ammunition to allow the City to establish a baseline for comparison with other ammunition. The SFPD didn’t produce this information, because it most likely hasn’t (and won’t) take these steps. And if the SFPD does decide to engage in such testing procedures, it is a virtual certainty that ammunition performance will not be ballistically identical to Black Talons in all respects.

“The NRA is already suing San Francisco over the unconstitutionality of its existing ban on the sale of hollow-point ammunition and its requirement that all handguns be kept locked up in the home when not being carried. That case, Jackson v. City and County of San Francisco, is currently before the Ninth Circuit and seeks to resolve many of the issues left unanswered by the Supreme Court in Heller v. District of Columbia.”

In fact their “We don’t know what’s illegal ammo until we see it” policy has already been singled out as potentially unconstitutionally vague. Penalties for possession of to-be-determined banned ammo can be up to $1,000 and six months in prison.

One thing’s for certain: if you’re in San Francisco, or just passing through it, you had better cycle out your 20-year old self-defense loads for something less illegal.

For that matter, if you still have any Black Talons, you should put them in a box with your Members Only jacket and gasoline jeans and dispose of them safely. It’s time to let them go.


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Crime/Corruption; Government; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events; US: California
KEYWORDS: banglist; blacktalon; gunban; guncontrol; gunsandammo; liberalism; pc; sanfrancisco; sanfransicko; secondamendment; winchester
winchester black talon photo: Black Talon 9-hst.jpg I purchased several boxes of the Black Talon back in the 1990s. I still keep a few boxes on hand for nostalgia. The rounds mushroomed just like the above photo when I took some rounds to the range and we test fired them into an old ballistic vest.
1 posted on 04/16/2013 7:03:11 PM PDT by DogByte6RER
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san fransicko photo: San Fransicko MARTINIbloodybones.jpg
2 posted on 04/16/2013 7:04:45 PM PDT by DogByte6RER ("Loose lips sink ships")
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san franfreako photo: living up to the reputation of San Franfreako freak_MarchforLife2009040.jpg The reason why San Francisco bans bullets like Black Talon ... Black Talon hollow points are made for these targets.
3 posted on 04/16/2013 7:07:06 PM PDT by DogByte6RER ("Loose lips sink ships")
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To: DogByte6RER

Black Talons are old technology. There are better alternatives.


4 posted on 04/16/2013 7:10:01 PM PDT by Obadiah (High speed, low drag.)
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To: DogByte6RER

I still have a box.


5 posted on 04/16/2013 7:15:59 PM PDT by mylife (The Roar Of The Masses Could Be Farts)
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To: DogByte6RER

The reason why this happened?

They wrote a “kitchen sink” law 20 years ago and have been trying to get it or any part of it passed every year since.

I’d bet that while parts of ObamaCare were written the year it passed, the core of it dates back to before he was even born with additions (seldom if ever deletions) made every year since.


6 posted on 04/16/2013 7:23:36 PM PDT by null and void (Republicans create the tools of oppression and Democrats use them. Gun confiscation enables tyranny.)
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To: DogByte6RER

I hear the kids are pirating floppy discs of BASIC on their Commodore 64’s, too.

Better get a handle on it now, San Franfreakshow.


7 posted on 04/16/2013 7:32:38 PM PDT by FLAMING DEATH (I'm not racist - I hate Biden too!)
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To: DogByte6RER
"...where Gian Luigi Ferri used a blend of ammo...with a pair of modified TEC-9s to shoot up the wrong office..."

Was there a 'right' office he should have shot up?

8 posted on 04/16/2013 7:35:21 PM PDT by Joe 6-pack (Qui me amat, amat et canem meum.)
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To: DogByte6RER

I think I still have a box of that stashed away, just for old time’s sake. The ad campaign said that the deadly serrations would saw right through a police vest. The libs were in a hysterical flop-sweat until somebody actually tested the stuff.


9 posted on 04/16/2013 7:37:36 PM PDT by Billthedrill
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To: Obadiah
Ever read about "blended metal" rounds? They'll pierce armour plate, but not a human body. In soft tissue they just fragment like hell.

I read a story a few years ago about a Blackwater contractor who got off a lucky shot from an extremely long distance that hit a running Iraqi in the ass cheek, and it was an instant kill shot. It tore up the guy's entire lower stomach.

Naturally, they wouldn't let our guys use them anymore, as that just wouldn't be "fair".

10 posted on 04/16/2013 7:43:24 PM PDT by Slump Tester (What if I'm pregnant Teddy? Errr-ahh -Calm down Mary Jo, we'll cross that bridge when we come to it)
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To: DogByte6RER
SF has to be one of the sickest urban garbage bins in all of America. San Francisco values brought to the District of Corruption by Piglosi.
11 posted on 04/16/2013 7:47:34 PM PDT by Cheerio (Barry Hussein Soetoro-0bama=The Complete Destruction of American Capitalism)
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To: DogByte6RER

The same basic ammo is still available as the Ranger T series, formerly SXT, formerly Black Talon.


12 posted on 04/16/2013 7:57:14 PM PDT by ltc8k6
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To: DogByte6RER
No hollow points for you!


13 posted on 04/16/2013 8:03:25 PM PDT by smokingfrog ( ==> sleep with one eye open (<o> ---)
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To: smokingfrog

Can’t wait for the movie -— “Girl-Girl-Girl Policewomen On Patrol!”.


14 posted on 04/16/2013 8:24:29 PM PDT by TaMoDee ( Lassez les bons temps rouler dans les 2013! Geaux, Pack, Geaux!)
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To: DogByte6RER

My PDX1’s by Winchester do wicked harm as do my Hornady’s..


15 posted on 04/16/2013 8:38:50 PM PDT by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously, you won't live through it anyway)
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To: TaMoDee

I think the one on the right in the image above your post used to be a man.

Ewwww!


16 posted on 04/16/2013 8:39:29 PM PDT by 43north (BHO: 50% black, 50% white, 100% RED)
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To: Vendome

There are lots of YouTube vids of gelatin tests using modern .45ACP JHP loads. Some of them make Black Talon’s look pretty mild by comparison.

Say, you don’t think it was the BLACK in Black Talons that sent those racist hoplophobes into a tizzy do you?


17 posted on 04/16/2013 8:42:20 PM PDT by 43north (BHO: 50% black, 50% white, 100% RED)
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To: DogByte6RER

Winchester just re-named them ‘Hello Kitty.’


18 posted on 04/16/2013 8:44:20 PM PDT by tumblindice (America's founding fathers: All armed conservatives.)
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To: 43north

You are correct. I forgot about that “sweetie” who converted from one side of the plate to the other.
I believe the switch was to due to a “Dickectomy”.


19 posted on 04/16/2013 8:57:28 PM PDT by TaMoDee ( Lassez les bons temps rouler dans les 2013! Geaux, Pack, Geaux!)
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To: 43north

White Bans burden...


20 posted on 04/16/2013 8:57:38 PM PDT by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously, you won't live through it anyway)
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To: DogByte6RER

Are they filming the new Star Wars movie in SF?


21 posted on 04/16/2013 9:22:37 PM PDT by Kirkwood (Zombie Hunter)
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To: Joe 6-pack

“...where Gian Luigi Ferri used a blend of ammo...with a pair of modified TEC-9s to shoot up the wrong office...”

Was there a ‘right’ office he should have shot up?

Since the question was raised, how about a ‘left’ office instead of a ‘right’ office? In memory of Johnathon Swift, I hereby propose that the voluminous list start with:
1. BATF offices?
2. Any Libtard Trough feeders office?
3. Most any lawyers office.
4. Just about any union office?

On a less dangerous but just as obnoxious level:
1. PETA offices?
2. SPLC offices?
3 Most any enviro-nutter office, like Sea Shepherd, Earth Justice, ad nauseam?

Given all those busily angering Americans, this question could easily result in hundreds of proposals.

;-)


22 posted on 04/16/2013 9:44:13 PM PDT by GladesGuru (In a society predicated upon freedom, it is necessary to examine principles."..)
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To: Slump Tester
...Naturally, they wouldn't let our guys use them anymore, as that just wouldn't be "fair".

Use of expanding ammo in personal weapons is banned by the Geneva Convention.

Typically anyone captured with expanding bullets is summarily executed, a practice I thoroughly support.

23 posted on 04/16/2013 11:37:43 PM PDT by CurlyDave
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To: DogByte6RER

Simply a thing of beauty...and you have two of them! Been carrying some waiting for the perfect time to use them. Recovered some from a large older snowmen, purty enough to make ear rings :-)


24 posted on 04/17/2013 1:30:21 AM PDT by S.O.S121.500 ( Nothing so vexes me as a democrap above ground...ENFORCE THE BILL OF RIGHTS. (It's the Law))
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To: DogByte6RER

25 posted on 04/17/2013 4:12:58 AM PDT by carriage_hill (The most insidious power the news media has, is the power to ignore.)
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To: FLAMING DEATH
*** I hear the kids are pirating floppy discs of BASIC on their Commodore 64’s, too. ***


26 posted on 04/17/2013 4:17:22 AM PDT by Condor51 (Si vis pacem, para bellum.)
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To: GladesGuru
On a less dangerous but just as obnoxious level:
2. SPLC offices?
No offense but IMHO the SPLC should be at the top of every list of Terrorist Organizations. They're far from just obnoxious and are an overt, direct danger. There sole goal is the destruction of the USA as a Constitutional Republic.

They're more odious than the ACLU as at least the ACLU 'pretends' to use our constitution while trying to destroy us. The SPLC on the other hand uses wild unfounded accusations to slander and demonize entire groups of law abiding, God fearing, patriotic Americans.

Go to their website and see who they list as 'Hate groups', 'Extremists', etc. - utterly sickening (Warning, you may feel like showering with lye afterward). And its founder Morris Seligman Dees (aka Mo Dees) should be at the TOP of every LEOs Wanted List in the US and territories -- with a Bounty! He IS an 'Enemy of the State'.

(give me 24 hours as head of DHS and that seditious, traitorous, pos would be sitting in an underground prison in Kazakhstan for the rest of his life)

27 posted on 04/17/2013 4:49:32 AM PDT by Condor51 (Si vis pacem, para bellum.)
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To: CurlyDave
Right... when's the last time we executed any prisoners for ANYTHING? We're fighting uniformed enemy who follow the Geneva Convention right to the tee, including how they treat our prisoners, aren't we?

Kill them all the best way possible at the least risk to us, get our men home and let that land go back to the stone age and start over.

28 posted on 04/17/2013 9:00:05 AM PDT by Slump Tester (What if I'm pregnant Teddy? Errr-ahh -Calm down Mary Jo, we'll cross that bridge when we come to it)
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