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The Great DHS Ammunition Stockpile Myth
Breibart - Big Government ^ | 4-4-2013 | Tom Stilson

Posted on 04/05/2013 6:42:29 AM PDT by Sir Napsalot

There are dozens of articles hyping government purchases of ammunition over the last nine months. After spending weeks researching this topic, this is a collection of commonly held myths that are based more on panic than fact.

With the recent release of a letter from the Department of Homeland Security to Senator Coburn, the numbers we calculated independently seem to corroborate the narrative coming from DHS. The concerns surrounding DHS stockpiling ammunition are nothing but more fear-mongering and largely unwarranted. For once, here are the facts to set the record straight:

MYTH: DHS purchased 750 million rounds of several different types of ammunition in August 2012.

FACT: The DHS contract never stated 750 million rounds at any time. It is a five year contract with a maximum purchase of 70 million rounds over the life of the contract. Military Times recently addressed this issue as well.

MYTH: DHS purchased an unprecedented 450 million rounds of .40 S&W 180gr hollow point bullets in 2012.

FACT: This is a standard five year contract that follows a historical purchasing pattern of DHS. Furthermore, it is not an “unprecedented” purchase by DHS. In fact, it is not even a purchase by DHS but by Immigrations and Customs Enforcement (ICE).

Starting in 2003, orders of 50 million and 225 million .40 S&W hollow point ammunition totaling 275 million rounds were purchased. After the expiration of the five year contracts in 2008, ICE purchased an additional 575 million rounds of .40 S&W hollow point ammunition with two separate orders (200 million and 375 million). Now, with the expiration of the 2008 contract, ICE has ordered a maximum of 450 million rounds over the next five years.

(Excerpt) Read more at breitbart.com ...


TOPICS: Front Page News
KEYWORDS: ammo; banglist; dhs; dhsammo; guncontrol; secondamendment
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Be sure to read the article and the rest of the myths from source, it has lots and lots of links to the quotes used.

Now we only need Tom Stilson to explain DHS purchasing light armor vehicles myth.

1 posted on 04/05/2013 6:42:29 AM PDT by Sir Napsalot
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To: Sir Napsalot

What’s to explain? DHS didn’t purchase them, the Marines did.


2 posted on 04/05/2013 6:43:47 AM PDT by 1rudeboy
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To: 1rudeboy

But Big Sis said they bought them in bulk to save money.


3 posted on 04/05/2013 6:45:47 AM PDT by massgopguy (I owe everything to George Bailey)
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To: Sir Napsalot

It’s no myth that no one can get ammunition. Even Homeland Security. That fact demands an explanation. If our rulers fail to give us one don’t blame people for trying to come up with one themselves.


4 posted on 04/05/2013 6:46:13 AM PDT by DManA
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To: 1rudeboy
???

Because DHS is flush with the dole but marines don't?

5 posted on 04/05/2013 6:47:02 AM PDT by Sir Napsalot (Pravda + Useful Idiots = CCCP; JournOList + Useful Idiots = DopeyChangey!)
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To: Sir Napsalot

6 posted on 04/05/2013 6:48:01 AM PDT by Travis McGee (www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com)
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To: Sir Napsalot

Maybe you misunderstood me. DHS did not buy the MRAPs, the Marines did. I’m not talking about the ammunition.


7 posted on 04/05/2013 6:48:19 AM PDT by 1rudeboy
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To: Sir Napsalot
This one baffles me. Why would any manufacturer sign a contract like this? They are obligated to invest in plant and materials to have on call massive amounts of product for a customer who might not buy any. Why would anyone give a discount to a customer like that?

FACT: The government purchases large quantities of ammunition in ID/IQ (Indefinite Delivery/Indefinite Quantity) orders, only guaranteeing to purchase as little as 1,000 or 100,000 rounds per year. The large orders lock in rates in the event ammunition prices increase as they have in recent years.

8 posted on 04/05/2013 6:50:49 AM PDT by DManA
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To: Sir Napsalot
In fact, it is not even a purchase by DHS but by Immigrations and Customs Enforcement (ICE).

Isn't ICE a part of DHS?

9 posted on 04/05/2013 6:52:45 AM PDT by Texas Eagle (If it wasn't for double-standards, Liberals would have no standards at all -- Texas Eagle)
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To: Sir Napsalot

Two interesting points in the article:

1. The government has bought .22lr....I’m really curious as to why.

2. The government buys hollow points by the million, and as the article points out several times, 99% of this ammo is for training. I don’t train with hollow point, since I can’t afford it. Why does the government think it can afford it?


10 posted on 04/05/2013 6:53:39 AM PDT by lacrew (Mr. Soetoro, we regret to inform you that your race card is over the credit limit.)
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To: DManA
It’s no myth that no one can get ammunition. Even Homeland Security. That fact demands an explanation

The reason there's an ammunition shortage is that people are buying a lot of ammunition. It's very simple.

It's a self-perpetuating feedback loop. There was panic buying after Newtown, and once reports of shortages popped up, even more people panicked and went out to buy ammunition, leading to more shortages, more panic buying, and so on. The silly panic over DHS ammo purchases (but not the small purchases themselves) has increased the phenomenon even more.

For gun owners, the answer to "why is there an ammo shortage" can be found by looking in a mirror.

11 posted on 04/05/2013 6:54:15 AM PDT by Strategerist
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To: Strategerist

That’s one idea.


12 posted on 04/05/2013 6:54:41 AM PDT by DManA
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To: Sir Napsalot

Page 19,999-Obamacare doesn’t cover “lead posioning!”


13 posted on 04/05/2013 6:56:25 AM PDT by Dr. Ursus
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To: 1rudeboy
This still does not give me a warm and fussy about the Feral government. With idiots like DeGett thinking large capacity magazines are a one use only item and former Governor Dick Lamb saying “Old folks have a duty to die” there is a total credibility problem with the government.
14 posted on 04/05/2013 6:57:17 AM PDT by mountainlion (Live well for those that did not make it back.)
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To: lacrew

They are testing common rounds found by US gun owners against body armor.


15 posted on 04/05/2013 6:57:25 AM PDT by Resolute Conservative
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To: lacrew

Fed law enforcement has apparently trained with hollow point for a long time.

Don’t have the source handy but apparently once the purchases are in large enough quantities the price differential for hollow points gets a lot smaller.

One of the things contributing to the falsehoods and myths surrounding government ammo purchases is that for any conceivable Google search, the first several hundred results are now repeats of all the idiotic panic articles from the blogosphere instead of actual truthful information.


16 posted on 04/05/2013 6:57:38 AM PDT by Strategerist
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To: 1rudeboy
That is exactly what my question was meant for, re: MRAPs.

Why DHS? So far DHS has not come up with an answer.

"The agency also refused to answer questions posed by Congress on the procurement of the armored vehicles...."DHS lies to public; large movement of armored vehicles reported (Granted a few days old 'news').

17 posted on 04/05/2013 6:59:44 AM PDT by Sir Napsalot (Pravda + Useful Idiots = CCCP; JournOList + Useful Idiots = DopeyChangey!)
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To: Sir Napsalot

Good luck with that. I tried a while back to show comparative orders under Bush and now and was shot down. The only thing that changed was going to 5 year contracts versus it was year by year. This does create a bottleneck with the suppliers but it isn’t the crazy, they are prepping for war on us stuff.


18 posted on 04/05/2013 6:59:59 AM PDT by mnehring
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To: Sir Napsalot
nothing but more fear-mongering

Who orchestrating the fear-mongering? What is their motive?

Seems to me these boys are concocting a conspiracy theory in order to puncture a conspiracy theory.

19 posted on 04/05/2013 7:00:17 AM PDT by DManA
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To: DManA

Concur, we are causing the ammo shortage. I have friends that talk about buying ammo like it is rare vintage wine. These same friends kept maybe a few boxes on hand a year ago.


20 posted on 04/05/2013 7:00:44 AM PDT by fini
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To: lacrew
While cleaning out a closet I found these Remington 22 shells. Bought them about fifteen years ago. Now I can't get any shells locally. When we do the price is at least three to four times this amount.


21 posted on 04/05/2013 7:01:21 AM PDT by Utah Binger (Southern Utah where the world comes to see America)
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To: mnehring
This does create a bottleneck with the suppliers

How does that create a bottle neck? We keep being told they signed an "up to" contract but the Feds aren't really buying.

22 posted on 04/05/2013 7:02:06 AM PDT by DManA
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To: DManA
Who orchestrating the fear-mongering? What is their motive?

Probably DHS.

That way when we hear they are "only" purchasing 70 million rounds instead of 700 million rounds, we'll go, "Whew. What a relief. That skeered me for a second."

23 posted on 04/05/2013 7:02:36 AM PDT by Texas Eagle (If it wasn't for double-standards, Liberals would have no standards at all -- Texas Eagle)
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To: fini

Got anything to back that up besides an anecdote?


24 posted on 04/05/2013 7:03:01 AM PDT by DManA
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To: Strategerist

“Don’t have the source handy but apparently once the purchases are in large enough quantities the price differential for hollow points gets a lot smaller.”

Why would the price differential change? If bulk buying gets a reduced rate for hollow point, wouldn’t bulk buying get a reduced rate for all ammuntion?

And even if the differential is less, when we are talking millions of rounds, isn’t paying any differential irresponsible?

I know the argument - train with what you use. But that’s not always reasonable. I was in the Army, and we always trained with ‘ball’ ammunition, instead of armor piercing. Even our tank rounds for training were not the same used in battle.

So why does this government agency differ...and get everything it wants?


25 posted on 04/05/2013 7:04:33 AM PDT by lacrew (Mr. Soetoro, we regret to inform you that your race card is over the credit limit.)
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To: Strategerist
once the purchases are in large enough quantities the price differential for hollow points gets a lot smaller.

This is one big circle.

The Feds made big purchase of ammo to save money.

Oh, is that why I can't buy any ammo at the store?

No, we didn't actually buy the ammo.

Then why did they give you a discount?

Because we made such a huge order.

26 posted on 04/05/2013 7:07:16 AM PDT by DManA
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To: Strategerist
Why do you ridicule purchasers of ammo?

The silly panic over DHS ammo purchases...

In fact it isn't silly at all. It may be the result of a misunderstanding or misinformation - but it isn't silly at all. No more silly than someone attempting to ridicule buyers into choosing to refrain from talking about it. That's curious.

More blame to the buyers:

For gun owners, the answer to "why is there an ammo shortage" can be found by looking in a mirror.

No blame anywhere but the buyers eh? I find it unusual that a FR poster would do so. You ain't from around here, are you?

27 posted on 04/05/2013 7:07:43 AM PDT by Principled
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To: Sir Napsalot

Who bought all the rimfires and revolver ammunition? Who uses that much .38spl and .44spl anymore?


28 posted on 04/05/2013 7:10:06 AM PDT by stuartcr ("I have habits that are older than the people telling me they're bad for me.")
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To: 1rudeboy

True the Marines originally purchased the light armored trucks then discovered they were not up to Marine standards and break down all the time so they got rid of them and the DHS picked them up.

Maybe Stilson can tell us why DHS needs 2717 light armored trucks to drive around our highways which are more than adequately protected by State, County and city police forces and why they need 7,000 full auto assault rifles.

Also interesting is the morphing explanation by DHS. First the ammo is for training. Now its just a bugetary matter.

Lastly, if they have no intention of purchasing 2 billion rounds of ammo why contract for it? They won’t get it cheaper if they dont take delivery.

Sorry Breitbart not buying it.


29 posted on 04/05/2013 7:11:07 AM PDT by Georgia Girl 2 (The only purpose of a pistol is to fight your way back to the rifle you should never have dropped.)
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To: Sir Napsalot
Again, the Marines bought the MRAPs (actually, they were sent in to be refurbished, but that's irrelevant). Some blog reported (mistakenly) that DHS purchased them. Same blog called them "tanks."

Showing me another blog entry is meaningless.

30 posted on 04/05/2013 7:11:15 AM PDT by 1rudeboy
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To: lacrew

It is common to train with what you use in the field. When buying in these quantities, the price difference isn’t that great, especially if you only have to deal with the logistics of one type versus separate orders for fmj and hp, shipping to separate locations, storing separately, tracking separately, etc.


31 posted on 04/05/2013 7:11:48 AM PDT by mnehring
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To: Georgia Girl 2
Maybe Stilson can tell us why DHS needs 2717 light armored trucks . . . .

That would be an interesting logical exercise. You expect him to explain why DHS needs vehicles it didn't purchase in the first place?

32 posted on 04/05/2013 7:13:31 AM PDT by 1rudeboy
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To: stuartcr
According to this article, DHS didn't buy all those ammo (nothing out of the ordinary anyway).

It is US, the conspiracy nuts, who bought those up in a continuous feedback loop (ammo shortage).

33 posted on 04/05/2013 7:13:41 AM PDT by Sir Napsalot (Pravda + Useful Idiots = CCCP; JournOList + Useful Idiots = DopeyChangey!)
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To: mnehring
Ok so you must be on the side that believes yes the government IS buying all the ammo.

When buying in these quantities, the price difference isn’t that great,

34 posted on 04/05/2013 7:14:41 AM PDT by DManA
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To: Georgia Girl 2; 1rudeboy
Lastly, if they have no intention of purchasing 2 billion rounds of ammo why contract for it? 2. When you have a government contract, you are required to allocate a certain percentage of your production resources to be ready to fulfill that contract. It creates a supply bottle-neck in the supply chain limiting what people can get (defacto gun control through supply chain challenges).
35 posted on 04/05/2013 7:15:38 AM PDT by mnehring
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To: 1rudeboy

“DHS didn’t purchase them, the Marines did.”

The DHS isn’t the military. Military ammo would be bought by the war department, not the homeland dept.. However, this communist govn. does whatever they want.


36 posted on 04/05/2013 7:15:42 AM PDT by Marcella (Prepping can save your life today. Going Galt is freedom.)
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To: Strategerist; DManA; Sir Napsalot; Principled; marktwain

Good reading on the root cause of the 2009 ammo shortage.

My guess is, the same principles apply this time around.

“Gunstores continue to be a never-ending source of hilarity. Walk into your local shooting emporium and ask why there is an ammo shortage, and you’ll hear inane speculation coupled with a conspiracy theory or two. The reality is that the supply chain for ammunition is relatively inelastic, and is easily overwhelmed by a sudden jump in sales...”

http://grantcunningham.com/blog_files/1f0a89deff589f5706c99bd0d0984930-512.html


37 posted on 04/05/2013 7:16:32 AM PDT by Nervous Tick (Without GOD, men get what they deserve.)
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To: Sir Napsalot
Again the circle. If they didn't make a big purchase why did they tell us they got a big discount?

DHS didn't buy all those ammo (nothing out of the ordinary anyway).

38 posted on 04/05/2013 7:17:13 AM PDT by DManA
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To: DManA

I believe they are contracting all of it, not necessarily taking orders on it. I also don’t believe the amounts, if looked at annually over the history of purchases, is that great. (ie, I don’t buy the scare mongering).

I think it is one of two things.
1. Interrupt the supply chain to limit civilian purchases.
2. Government agencies with the attitude, if spending $1 billion dollars is good, spending $2 billion dollars is better.


39 posted on 04/05/2013 7:17:47 AM PDT by mnehring
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To: mnehring

If I was a manufacturer I’d demand a premium for this, not give a discount.


40 posted on 04/05/2013 7:18:39 AM PDT by DManA
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To: Sir Napsalot

Who you gonna’ believe?

Your own lyin’ eyes and ears or the people who burned down the Branch Davidian compound and used Army tanks to murder 82 men, women and children?

But remember, they did it “to save the children”.


41 posted on 04/05/2013 7:20:52 AM PDT by Iron Munro (Welcome to Obama-Land - EVERYTHING NOT FORBIDDEN IS COMPULSORY)
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To: DManA
It’s no myth that no one can get ammunition.

Go to gunbroker.com ... you can get ANY ammo you want. Caliber, manufacturer, specific grain, etc.

42 posted on 04/05/2013 7:22:06 AM PDT by dartuser (My firearm is not illegal ... its undocumented.)
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To: Sir Napsalot

The only place I know of that has any ammunition for sale around here, are the shooting ranges. They seem to have all popular calibers in stock...but who would pay $30 for 20rds of .30M1? The manufacturers don’t even package them in boxes of 50rds anymore for handguns.


43 posted on 04/05/2013 7:22:56 AM PDT by stuartcr ("I have habits that are older than the people telling me they're bad for me.")
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To: Sir Napsalot
LISLE, Ill., Jan. 10, 2011 /PRNewswire/ -- Navistar Defense, LLC received a $880 million delivery order today to upgrade 2,717 International® MaxxPro® Mine Resistant Ambush Protected (MRAP) vehicles. The order from the U.S. Marine Corps System Command calls for MaxxPro units to be upgraded with the company's rolling chassis solution. The award also includes engineering changes, supplies and services.

[]

Work will begin at the company's West Point, Miss., assembly facility in January 2012 and is scheduled for completion in October 2013.

Source


44 posted on 04/05/2013 7:23:27 AM PDT by 1rudeboy
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To: Iron Munro

>>> Who you gonna’ believe?

I think you are right on and hit a nerve here.


45 posted on 04/05/2013 7:23:48 AM PDT by Sir Napsalot (Pravda + Useful Idiots = CCCP; JournOList + Useful Idiots = DopeyChangey!)
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To: DManA
If I was a manufacturer I’d demand a premium for this, not give a discount.

That's probably why you aren't a manufacturer and I assume, don't own or operate any large manufacturing business. Large quantity contracts are a gold mine for these companies. Let's say you are going to make 100 million widgets. You can sell 100 million widgets, 100 at a time to 1 million customers at .10c each or would you sell all 100 million at one time at .09c (even if the customer doesn't take delivery of the order for but 10% of them, as long as they pay). Selling to 100 customers is an exponential increase in the costs associated with that process, sales, accounting, shipping, warehousing, etc. A single customer reduces the expenses in those areas drastically. I can't think of a single industry that doesn't give a decent discount for bulk orders specifically for this reason. A discount on the cost results in a much greater expense savings.

And don't forget, you are dealing with the government who probably isn't getting a whole lot of a discount and is probably paying up front for supplies they don't even take delivery on. They are that dumb.

46 posted on 04/05/2013 7:23:53 AM PDT by mnehring
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To: Sir Napsalot
The DHS contract never stated 750 million rounds

Someone needs to be held accountable for getting the facts of the story wrong by an order of magnitude? Who was it? Where did the billion number come from?

You can't just plop this meme out there and not tell us who is responsible. This is a badly written piece.

47 posted on 04/05/2013 7:25:20 AM PDT by DManA
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To: mnehring
Large quantity contracts are a gold mine for these companies.

So you are saying this actually COST the government, not saved the tax payers big bucks?

48 posted on 04/05/2013 7:26:53 AM PDT by DManA
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To: mnehring
Wait a minute. Explain this. The government is paying for something that isn't delivered?

(even if the customer doesn't take delivery of the order for but 10% of them, as long as they pay).

49 posted on 04/05/2013 7:28:44 AM PDT by DManA
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To: Sir Napsalot
I agree that this is mostly due to ammo hoarding and the resultant outrageous doubling and tripling of costs to the average shooter.

Ammunition shortage fueled by rumor, fear [JUMP]Gun owners blame government, hoard bullets Gun owners blame government, hoard bullets

Posted April 4, 2013 at 11:02 p.m.

http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2013/apr/04/ammunition-shortage-fueled-by-rumor-fear-jumpgun/

50 posted on 04/05/2013 7:28:55 AM PDT by KeyLargo
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