Posted on 03/08/2013 9:01:51 PM PST by daniel1212
In some (or many?) ways close...but still too far.
We cannot put the cart before the horse, or hitch it up alongside, either.
Then (according to the theological understanding which you seem to follow) Jesus died so that we could be baptized, or have initial repentance wiping the slate clean, but after that, then what? each sin afterwards needing absolution to come through the offices of a RC priest? Wait--- that was the RC Dark Ages plan of salvation, like I'd mentioned before. When I posed the question of "why did He die" (for our sins) it was in that context. I thought that plain enough.
He died for our salvation, without Him there is no redemption and no salvation, period. The rest is up to us.
So He died to open the door and make it "possible", with the remainder of the possibility fully dependent upon our own performance...which performance bond we must always be making payment upon to remain...His adopted children?
I say nay. I'm sorry sir, but what you seem to outline is not the simple Gospel, for it fully tosses out and all but outright outlaws ALL BUT the first sips of milk (milk of the Word) and force-feeds nothing but meat thereafter.
That is an unbalanced feeding regime. Although one using only milk can be said to be unskillful in the Word, that is not the same as being incorrect.
When one grows enough, and can chew the meat ...in my own opinion, the milk itself can become the meat (once one has grown sufficiently to have trained themselves through practice, to determine good from evil [Heb. 5])
Setting aside my own discussion of milk of the word what would you suppose Paul means when he employs the term "milk"? Is such milk he speaks of dependent upon works of the receiver of such milk?
I'm rather certain at this point you will dodge the question, turning once again to works as fulfillment of the Gospel, my own saying that because of no matter how I've approached this subject, by words each time you return to "works" if only by inclusion as mandatory.
If it be against sin, or refraining from sin that are the minimum required "works" which make us holy [enough] under this Gospel plan you seem to offer, then again, what would Christ have died for? That makes His blood not sufficient for some sins, or sins of certain people? Sufficient only to get us started?
THAT deal, "don't sin, and you will be My people and I will be your God" had already been on the table previously. None among men (save for Christ) was able under that law, to be son of God.
Paul never forcibly took the baby bottles away from the babies, but more said to some, "people...grow up already."
Later, or in other context we see Peter exhorting Jewish Christians in strange lands to desire the pure milk of the word.
Again, what is this pure milk spoken of? Is it that Christ died for our sins...but as you say "the rest is up to us"?
One more question, this asked for the second time slightly rephrased;
When we partake of the body of Christ, broken for us...and the blood shed for the sins of many, where are our works then?
Jesus only...not Jesus + "something else". That is the Gospel.
Though it may not be (in fact would not be) a fully rounded understanding...I still could not help but see my own part, my own inclusion related to that third piece of flatbread...With Jesus, broken, in the middle, being the second (in that sense of counting) even as that piece is eaten last.
The wiki entry of the children stealing or having hidden from them that broken piece was rather stunning to me also. Everything I read at those links I referenced, and more, opened up new areas of contemplation, for I noodled around from one link to many others, with them all branching and spreading as branches of the same tree.
***So He died to open the door and make it “possible”, with the remainder of the possibility fully dependent upon our own performance...which performance bond we must always be making payment upon to remain...His adopted children?***
We remain always His children but we can go astray, like the Prodigal Son, who threw away his inheritance to live a life of sin and selfishness. When he returned he was instantly forgiven. But, he had to return didn’t he?
Yes, sin can cause us to throw away our freely given gift of salvation. That is why we must remain in Jesus as He said. That is why confession is such a blessing.
*** each sin afterwards needing absolution to come through the offices of a RC priest***
Jesus gave them the power to forgive sins, Peter says repent and be baptized to be saved. These are not inventions of the Church.
I love the story of the washing of the feet. Peter was too proud to have Jesus wash his feet, but Jesus said He must so that the apostles would know what to do when the time came for them to be the servants of His followers.
Peter then says, then not only my feet but my hands and head as well. Jesus tells him that if one has had a bath, then only the feet need to be washed.
To me this is so clearly baptism and reconciliation.
****Setting aside my own discussion of milk of the word what would you suppose Paul means when he employs the term “milk”? Is such milk he speaks of dependent upon works of the receiver of such milk?*****
I believe that here Paul is speaking of those who still act like babies and not as believers who have matured. Like a baby they want what they want, which I believe is to be told that Jesus died for them and that’s all they must believe to be saved. But, faith is in the hands of the individual once it is received and accepted. There is a responsibility that comes with maturity of faith, understanding of the individual’s relationship with God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
Paul says in Phillipians chapter 3 regarding salvation,
I consider them garbage, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in[a] Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith. 10 I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead.
12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13 Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.
15 All of us, then, who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you. 16 Only let us live up to what we have already attained.
This is the meat which Paul offers to his readers, the maturity to know that it is Christ that is our goal, it is Christ’s righteousness which make us righteous and that all we do and have is from the sufferings of Jesus Christ.
We have already attained salvation through faith, but we must live up to that which we have, not living as some do, as enemies of the cross.
****If it be against sin, or refraining from sin that are the minimum required “works” which make us holy [enough] under this Gospel plan you seem to offer, then again, what would Christ have died for? That makes His blood not sufficient for some sins, or sins of certain people? Sufficient only to get us started?****
Christ is our beginning and our end. Refraining from sin, which is impossible for us is surely a striving for holiness, but without the one perfect sacrifice which is Jesus, we cannot attain holiness.
That is why all that Catholics do, we do to remain in Christ. These things we do keep us on the path that Christ set before us and it is through Him, with Him and in Him that we reach the end of the path, the goal which we desire, eternal life with God.
****THAT deal, “don’t sin, and you will be My people and I will be your God” had already been on the table previously. None among men (save for Christ) was able under that law, to be son of God.*****
That was not the deal previously on the table. God did not say “don’t sin” and you will be My people. Rather He said to them “I will be your God and you will be my people”. The people turned away from God, they made other things their god forgetting the covenant they had with the One True God. That is what led to their sin and their sin further separated them. Just as Adam and Eve ate the apple against the wishes of God and were barred from Eden.
But, with Jesus, the covenant was changed and God’s people became God’s children and so, though we sin, we are no longer barred from heaven. The relationship has changed, but obedience to God has not. So, we can trust God as a loving Father to forgive us when we sin without reservation, not by our merit but by the covenant made through Jesus.
***When we partake of the body of Christ, broken for us...and the blood shed for the sins of many, where are our works then?****
Our works are made holy and pleasing to God in Jesus when we unite them to the cross of Christ.
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