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DHS built domestic surveillance tech into Predator drones
CNET ^ | March 2, 2013 | Declan McCullagh

Posted on 03/02/2013 6:09:55 PM PST by Vince Ferrer

The U.S. Department of Homeland Security has customized its Predator drones, originally built for overseas military operations, to carry out at-home surveillance tasks that have civil libertarians worried: identifying civilians carrying guns and tracking their cell phones, government documents show.

The documents provide more details about the surveillance capabilities of the department's unmanned Predator B drones, which are primarily used to patrol the United States' northern and southern borders but have been pressed into service on behalf of a growing number of law enforcement agencies including the FBI, the Secret Service, the Texas Rangers, and local police.

Homeland Security's specifications for its drones, built by San Diego-based General Atomics Aeronautical Systems, say they "shall be capable of identifying a standing human being at night as likely armed or not," meaning carrying a shotgun or rifle. They also specify "signals interception" technology that can capture communications in the frequency ranges used by mobile phones, and "direction finding" technology that can identify the locations of mobile devices or two-way radios. The Electronic Privacy Information Center obtained a partially redacted copy of Homeland Security's requirements for its drone fleet through the Freedom of Information Act and published it this week. CNET unearthed an unredacted copy of the requirements that provides additional information about the aircraft's surveillance capabilities.

Homeland Security's Predator B drone can stay aloft conducting surveillance for 20 hours. (Credit: U.S. Department of Homeland Security) Concern about domestic use of drones is growing, with federal legislation introduced last month that would establish legal safeguards, in addition to parallel efforts underway from state and local lawmakers. The Federal Aviation Administration recently said that it will "address privacy-related data collection" by drones. The prospect of identifying armed Americans concerns Second Amendment advocates, who say that technology billed as securing the United States' land and maritime borders should not be used domestically. Michael Kostelnik, the Homeland Security official who created the program, told Congress that the drone fleet would be available to "respond to emergency missions across the country," and a Predator drone was dispatched to the tiny town of Lakota, N.D., to aid local police in a dispute that began with reimbursement for feeding six cows. The defendant, arrested with the help of Predator surveillance, lost a preliminary bid to dismiss the charges.

"I am very concerned that this technology will be used against law-abiding American firearms owners," says Alan Gottlieb, founder and executive vice president of the Second Amendment Foundation. "This could violate Fourth Amendment rights as well as Second Amendment rights." Homeland Security's Customs and Border Protection agency declined to answer questions about whether direction-finding technology is currently in use on its drone fleet. A representative provided CNET with a statement about the agency's unmanned aircraft systems (UAS) that said signals interception capability is not currently used:

U.S. Customs and Border Protection is not deploying signals interception capabilities on its UAS fleet. Any potential deployment of such technology in the future would be implemented in full consideration of civil rights, civil liberties, and privacy interests and in a manner consistent with the law and long-standing law enforcement practices.

CBP's UAS program is a vital border security asset. Equipped with state-of-the-art sensors and day-and-night cameras, the UAS provides real-time images to frontline agents to more effectively and efficiently secure the nation's borders. As a force multiplier, the UAS operates for extended periods of time and allows CBP to safely conduct missions over tough-to-reach terrain. The UAS also provides agents on the ground with added situational awareness to more safely resolve dangerous situations. During his appearance before the House Homeland Security committee, Kostelnik, a retired Air Force major general who recently left the agency, testified that the drones' direction-finding ability is part of a set of "DOD capabilities that are being tested or adopted by CBP to enhance UAS performance for homeland security." CBP currently has 10 Predator drones and is considering buying up to 14 more.

If the Predator drones were used only to identify smugglers or illegal immigrants crossing the Mexican and Canadian borders, or for disaster relief, they might not be especially controversial. But their use domestically by other government agencies has become routine enough -- and expensive enough -- that Homeland Security's inspector general said (PDF) last year that CBP needs to sign agreements "for reimbursement of expenses incurred fulfilling mission requests."

"The documents clearly evidence that the Department of Homeland Security is developing drones with signals interception technology and the capability to identify people on the ground," says Ginger McCall, director of the Open Government Project at the Electronic Privacy Information Center. "This allows for invasive surveillance, including potential communications surveillance, that could run afoul of federal privacy laws."

A Homeland Security official, who did not want to be identified by name, said the drones are able to identify whether movement on the ground comes from a human or an animal, but that they do not perform facial recognition. The official also said that because the unarmed drones have a long anticipated life span, the department tries to plan ahead for future uses to support its border security mission, and that aerial surveillance would comply with the Electronic Communications Privacy Act and other applicable federal laws.

The documents show that CBP specified that the "tracking accuracy should be sufficient to allow target designation," and the agency notes on its Web site that its Predator B series is capable of "targeting and weapons delivery" (the military version carries multiple 100-pound Hellfire missiles). CBP says, however, that its Predator aircraft are unarmed.

Gene Hoffman, a Silicon Valley entrepreneur who's the chairman of the Calguns Foundation, said CBP "needs to be very careful with attempts to identify armed individuals in the border area" when aerial surveillance touches on a constitutional right.

"In the border area of California and Arizona, it may be actively dangerous for the law-abiding to not carry firearms precisely due to the illegal flow of drugs and immigrants across the border in those areas," Hoffman says.

CBP's specifications say that signals interception and direction-finding technology must work from 30MHz to 3GHz in the radio spectrum. That sweeps in the GSM and CDMA frequencies used by mobile phones, which are in the 300MHz to 2.7GHz range, as well as many two-way radios. The specifications say: "The system shall provide automatic and manual DF of multiple signals simultaneously. Automatic DF should be able to separate out individual communication links." Automated direction-finding for cell phones has become an off-the-shelf technology: one company sells a unit that its literature says is "capable of taking the bearing of every mobile phone active in a channel."

Although CBP's unmanned Predator aircraft are commonly called drones, they're remotely piloted by FAA-licensed operators on the ground. They can fly for up to 20 hours and carry a payload of about 500 lbs.


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Front Page News; Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: 666; banglist; cwii; cwiiping; dhs; domesticsurveillance; drones; dronesurveillance; govtabuse; obama; predatordrones; tyranny; waronliberty
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The U.S. Department of Homeland Security has customized its Predator drones, originally built for overseas military operations, to carry out at-home surveillance tasks that have civil libertarians worried: identifying civilians carrying guns and tracking their cell phones, government documents show.
1 posted on 03/02/2013 6:10:05 PM PST by Vince Ferrer
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To: Vince Ferrer
The documents show that CBP specified that the "tracking accuracy should be sufficient to allow target designation," and the agency notes on its Web site that its Predator B series is capable of "targeting and weapons delivery" (the military version carries multiple 100-pound Hellfire missiles). CBP says, however, that its Predator aircraft are unarmed.
2 posted on 03/02/2013 6:12:57 PM PST by Vince Ferrer
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To: Vince Ferrer

How do they track cell phones with the battery removed?


3 posted on 03/02/2013 6:15:05 PM PST by Paladin2
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To: Vince Ferrer

Are blow darts covered by the 2nd Amendment?


4 posted on 03/02/2013 6:16:15 PM PST by Paladin2
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To: Vince Ferrer

So your Cell phone gets you to pay for #obamaphone and its a targeting and tracking device for Big Sis all for the privilege of paying $100 a month to Verizon.


5 posted on 03/02/2013 6:16:49 PM PST by omega4179
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To: Paladin2

Gun Laws?


6 posted on 03/02/2013 6:16:49 PM PST by Paladin2
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To: Paladin2

In a Faraday Cage?


7 posted on 03/02/2013 6:17:58 PM PST by Paladin2
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To: omega4179

I think I will cancel my cell.


8 posted on 03/02/2013 6:18:52 PM PST by omega4179 ( Morpheus: You are a slave, Neo)
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To: Vince Ferrer

I’m rapidly becoming a paranoid conspiracy theorist.


9 posted on 03/02/2013 6:19:02 PM PST by JimSEA ( “what difference does it make?”)
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To: JimSEA
I’m rapidly becoming a paranoid conspiracy theorist.

I'm becoming a paranoid conspiracy realist.

10 posted on 03/02/2013 6:21:04 PM PST by Vince Ferrer
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To: JimSEA

I just call it pragmatic now.


11 posted on 03/02/2013 6:22:04 PM PST by kevslisababy
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To: Vince Ferrer

Nothing a Bofors 40mm Light Anti-Aircraft Gun won’t fix.

Start smuggling them in and fixing them up?


12 posted on 03/02/2013 6:22:43 PM PST by Candor7 (Obama fascism article:(http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/05/barack_obama_the_quintessentia_1.html))
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To: Candor7

13 posted on 03/02/2013 6:30:49 PM PST by Vince Ferrer
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To: Vince Ferrer

This is the kind of thing which makes the 2nd Amendment impotent because the fullest spirit of its intent would have allowed civilian citizens to arm themselves with RPGs, anti-aircraft weaponry, and anything else to take down robotic agents of war operated by a hostile national government.


14 posted on 03/02/2013 6:30:49 PM PST by James C. Bennett (An Australian.)
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To: kevslisababy; Vince Ferrer

Whatever we call it, it’s coming like a loaded freight train.


15 posted on 03/02/2013 6:32:56 PM PST by JimSEA ( “what difference does it make?”)
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To: James C. Bennett
"This is the kind of thing which makes the 2nd Amendment impotent because the fullest spirit of its intent would have allowed civilian citizens to arm themselves with RPGs, anti-aircraft weaponry, and anything else to take down robotic agents of war operated by a hostile national government."

The drone pilots still have to get to and from work, buy groceries, fill their cars up etc.

Just sayin'...

16 posted on 03/02/2013 6:34:09 PM PST by Joe 6-pack (Qui me amat, amat et canem meum.)
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To: Vince Ferrer

Electric Eye - Judas Priest

Up here in space
I’m looking down on you
My lasers trace
Everything you do

You think you’ve private lives
Think nothing of the kind
There is no true escape
I’m watching all the time

I’m made of metal
My circuits gleam
I am perpetual
I keep the country clean

I’m elected electric spy
I’m protected electric eye

Always in focus
You can’t feel my stare
I zoom into you
You don’t know I’m there

I take a pride in probing all your secret moves
My tearless retina takes pictures that can prove

I’m made of metal
My circuits gleam
I am perpetual
I keep the country clean

Electric eye, in the sky
Feel my stare, always there
There’s nothing you can do about it
Develop and expose
I feed upon your every thought
And so my power grows

I’m made of metal
My circuits gleam
I am perpetual
I keep the country clean

Protected. Detective. Electric eye


17 posted on 03/02/2013 6:39:12 PM PST by dfwgator
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To: Candor7

This will work, lot cheaper...

http://www.o-like.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=9&products_id=168

But you’ll need these...

http://www.dragonlasers.com/Laser-Glasses-UV-to-Green-Lasers-Protection-190-548nm.html

Should be treated as a firearm; flash your eyes can be blind for life, off reflective surfaces can bounce off in another direction for long distances and permanently destroy other’s eyesight too.


18 posted on 03/02/2013 6:58:55 PM PST by TheBigJ
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To: James C. Bennett
This is the kind of thing which makes the 2nd Amendment impotent because the fullest spirit of its intent would have allowed civilian citizens to arm themselves with RPGs, anti-aircraft weaponry, and anything else to take down robotic agents of war operated by a hostile national government.

We need to start arguing that. The continuous escalation of infringements not only of the second amendment, but of the fourth, will cause a backlash. They will use the backlash, which they caused, as justification for their escalation, and escalate more. They are simply in a mindset that they cannot stop. This isn't going to end well.

I truly believe that these experiments (Stanford Prison Experiment) and (Milgram Experiment) were seminal works in human psychology, and are directly applicable with what we are seeing played out today. And it is the best way to understand it. Our DHS agents will become a jack booted gestapo, because step by step that is the role they have been given. The experiments prove that if you put a good man into a room with gestapo weapons, gestapo uniforms, gestapo tactics, don't be surprised at what comes out of the room. It isn't going to be a good man.

Anti second amendment types often toss out the position that if you don't limit the second amendment, people will be able to own nuclear bombs. But we do have a clear constitutional need today to be able to counter tyrannical power at any level of technology the federal government can throw at us, not just rifles. How that happens is something no one is thinking of yet. It could be that the national guard becomes a state guard, as checks and balances against the power of the federal goverment, or that the unorganized militia should start forming again. Clearly an individual does not have the resources to fight this if used by a tyrannical government against us.

19 posted on 03/02/2013 7:03:29 PM PST by Vince Ferrer
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To: Vince Ferrer
I wonder if Vlad would be so nice and give me one of these. Just for target practice


20 posted on 03/02/2013 7:06:47 PM PST by darkwing104 (Let's get dangerous)
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To: Vince Ferrer
One of the things that many here won't believe is that these aircraft still have to be operated within the laws of this country, when operated inside the United States. The case precedence is very clear on the use of airborne assets and sensors when it applies to private property. There are also a lot of restrictions on the use of ELINT equipment inside the U.S. The key is that platforms used by CBP operate right on the border and look over the line where they can use that equipment.

Much of the language that causes concern is written by people trying to inflate their own importance. The CBP Predator program in reality is a failure. It sucks funds away from things that work into a capability that is seldom used and is locked on limited tracks allowed by the FAA. The contract with General Atomics is practically criminal in its lack of accountability. Several years ago a Predator being flown by General Atomics contract pilots was crashed due to gross incompetence and negligence. Because of the way the contract is written, CBP still pays an outrageous amount of money every year, to General Atomics, for Ku band time on that aircraft that is now in the trash heap.

CBP Air would be a lot better off with a mid size turbine airplane capable of carrying the same sensors for a lot less money. You could buy several of these for the cost of the Predator and use the same crews to fly those aircraft. The advantage would be cost, a lower mishap rate, and CBP could operate it anywhere in the U.S. without a permission slip from the FAA.

The only capability the Predator has brought to its limited operating area has been VADER, an MTI radar capable of detecting and tracking groups on foot. Then again that could have been bought for a manned aircraft.

21 posted on 03/02/2013 7:09:32 PM PST by USNBandit (sarcasm engaged at all times)
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To: Paladin2
can't... that's the only way to stop them from tracking you
22 posted on 03/02/2013 7:49:08 PM PST by Chode (Stand UP and Be Counted, or line up and be numbered - *DTOM* -ww- NO Pity for the LAZY)
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To: Vince Ferrer

It also tells you that the Sec of DHS has a limp dick.


23 posted on 03/02/2013 8:06:30 PM PST by freekitty (Give me back my conservative vote; then find me a real conservative to vote for)
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To: Vince Ferrer; COUNTrecount; Nowhere Man; FightThePower!; C. Edmund Wright; jacob allen; ...

Nut-job Conspiracy Theory Ping!

To get onto The Nut-job Conspiracy Theory Ping List you must threaten to report me to the Mods if I don’t add you to the list...

24 posted on 03/02/2013 8:46:20 PM PST by null and void (Gun confiscation enables tyranny. Don't enable tyranny.)
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To: Vince Ferrer; COUNTrecount; Nowhere Man; FightThePower!; C. Edmund Wright; jacob allen; ...

Nut-job Conspiracy Theory Ping!

To get onto The Nut-job Conspiracy Theory Ping List you must threaten to report me to the Mods if I don’t add you to the list...

25 posted on 03/02/2013 8:47:22 PM PST by null and void (Gun confiscation enables tyranny. Don't enable tyranny.)
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To: omega4179
So your Cell phone gets you to pay for #obamaphone and its a targeting and tracking device for Big Sis all for the privilege of paying $100 a month to Verizon.

It's not the country we loved ...

Soon we won't have to worry about people coming here to be free. We won't be free.

Our biggest concern will be can we leave... and will Canada take us in...

26 posted on 03/02/2013 9:00:13 PM PST by GOPJ (To be free is to own one's risk - Jonathan Levy)
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To: USNBandit

Regulations don’t mean anything if the people who are supposed to enforce the regulations are lawless thugs just like the foreign enemy combatant who appointed them to that position.

Right now “the enemy is in the building”. Laws/regulations/Constitution no longer matter, because the only ones allowed to guard the henhouse are all foxes.


27 posted on 03/02/2013 9:47:04 PM PST by butterdezillion
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To: null and void

I want my country back. Spineless GOP, sycophantic dimorats, and a dictator in chief........the insanity continues


28 posted on 03/02/2013 10:21:27 PM PST by Nifster
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To: Vince Ferrer

“In the border area of California and Arizona, it may be actively dangerous for the law-abiding to not carry firearms precisely due to the illegal flow of drugs and immigrants across the border in those areas,...”

How about on the streets of any big US city?


29 posted on 03/02/2013 11:06:35 PM PST by Seizethecarp (Defend aircraft from "runway kill zone" mini-drone helicopter swarm attacks: www.runwaykillzone.com)
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To: Paladin2

That was my question, too. What about tracking just the SIM card? Can they do that wo/ the battery activated?


30 posted on 03/03/2013 4:19:14 AM PST by carriage_hill (AR-10s & AR-15s Are The 21st Century's Muskets. Free Men Need Not Ask Permission!)
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To: USNBandit

Somehow I am not comforted. If anyone thinks the only danger is from Obama, or the left, they are mistaken.


31 posted on 03/03/2013 5:28:18 AM PST by PghBaldy (12/14 - 930am -rampage begins... 12/15 - 1030am - Obama's advance team scouts photo-op locations.)
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To: PghBaldy

and you would be correct on that...all the way back to when someone has the asshat idea of a Patriot Act which came under the GOP. Some like Rush have it right, it is the ruling political class, not party, that is at odds with us the serfs. Soon they will be in complete control with no ability to get them out, at least that is what they think.

Someone here pointed out weeks ago, during its high point, the provos in the IRA had no more than 100 members yet managed to keep an entire nation at bay for over 50 years. It is just a matter of commitment to a cause, hopefully the flame of freedom stays kindled in the USA.


32 posted on 03/03/2013 5:35:28 AM PST by Mouton (108th MI Group.....68-71)
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To: omega4179

So, when do we start blackmarketing for obamaphones? The jackboots wouldn’t track their own free phones, right?


33 posted on 03/03/2013 5:39:21 AM PST by bgill
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To: Paladin2
How do they track cell phones with the battery removed?/i>

Latest technology probably puts self-contained trackers in all cell phone batteries.....Wouldn't put it past them - might explain why the batteries cost so damn much.

34 posted on 03/03/2013 5:49:09 AM PST by trebb (Where in the the hell has my country gone?)
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To: Vince Ferrer

“...the agency notes on its Web site that its Predator B series is capable of ‘targeting and weapons delivery’”

All it takes is a secret or “emergency” presidential directive to arm the “capable” drones, such as allowing the Secret Service to use armed drones to protect POTUS or deal with an emergent domestic terror situation like the DC sniper.

I have seen nothing to preclude that from having happened already and drones have already been spotted near POTUS appearances.


35 posted on 03/03/2013 6:20:13 AM PST by Seizethecarp (Defend aircraft from "runway kill zone" mini-drone helicopter swarm attacks: www.runwaykillzone.com)
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To: USNBandit

Your argument is from the perspective and standpoint of a civilized government. In those cases, the pen is mightier than the sword. However those who now occupy positions of power are anything but civilized. Who ever said the pen was mightier than the sword, obviously never met the sword, or if they did it was too late to warn everyone of their egregious mistake.


36 posted on 03/03/2013 6:26:21 AM PST by DarkWaters ("Deception is a state of mind --- and the mind of the state" --- James Jesus Angleton)
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To: darkwing104
NO ONE NEEDS A 4 SAM MOBILE BATTERY TO KILL A DEEEEEEEEEER!!

:O)

37 posted on 03/03/2013 6:26:21 AM PST by mykroar (Sig is pending a Conservative party.)
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To: James C. Bennett

One problem with your line of thinking, James: these are not autonomous flight platforms. They require a joystick jockey to keep them going. All it takes is some good intel on where in the wilderness the flight radio shack is located, some ingenuity, a pack of pissed off patriots, and you can take over those drones for your own purposes or at least make the control of those devices quite perilous for those who wish to do the job.


38 posted on 03/03/2013 6:33:42 AM PST by rarestia (It's time to water the Tree of Liberty.)
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To: Mouton

The problem with the IRA is that it was supported via indirect routes by the Soviet Union and other means. They did not live in a vacuum nor do most guerrilla type movements.


39 posted on 03/03/2013 6:36:22 AM PST by DarkWaters ("Deception is a state of mind --- and the mind of the state" --- James Jesus Angleton)
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To: darkwing104

Don’t forget the radar units, else the launch platform pictured will do nothing.


40 posted on 03/03/2013 6:43:31 AM PST by PIF (They came for me and mine ... now it is your turn ...)
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To: rarestia; Vince Ferrer
One problem with your line of thinking, James: these are not autonomous flight platforms. They require a joystick jockey to keep them going. All it takes is some good intel on where in the wilderness the flight radio shack is located, some ingenuity, a pack of pissed off patriots, and you can take over those drones for your own purposes or at least make the control of those devices quite perilous for those who wish to do the job.

Not fully autonomous for now.

They are indeed getting more and more autonomous. They don't need to be fully autonomous, either - just self-contained enough to be able to receive broad mission objectives via satellite. The uplink centres to those satellites could be (or already is) behind heavily reinforced government bunkers - the kind that three-shot "assault" rifle-armed citizenry would be machine-gunned to pulp if they attempt to penetrate.

Besides, you are not going to be able to scramble highly-encrypted digital signals with anything bought off Radio Shack.

Think about it: Afghanistan's people are armed to the gills with fully automatic machine guns AND anti-aircraft weaponry. The drones fly in and out with little concern over being shot down. Granted, the comparison may not be fully apples-to-apples, but you have to account for the fact that they have a more deadlier collection of weapons at the hands of their civilian population compared to what the American "citizen" is allowed by the government to possess.

41 posted on 03/03/2013 7:16:33 AM PST by James C. Bennett (An Australian.)
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To: dfwgator

I was thinking of the chorus to Eye in The Sky from Alan Parsons:

I am the eye in the sky
Looking at you
I can read your mind
I am the maker of rules
Dealing with fools
I can cheat you blind
And I don’t need to see any more
To know that
I can read your mind, I can read your mind


42 posted on 03/03/2013 8:41:29 AM PST by Las Vegas Ron (Medicine is the keystone in the arch of socialism)
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To: DarkWaters; Mouton
They did not live in a vacuum nor do most guerrilla type movements.

Look at what ONE man did to the LAPD and SBPD just by releasing a manifesto.

Mulitply that by a couple of million.....just sayin.

43 posted on 03/03/2013 8:48:38 AM PST by Las Vegas Ron (Medicine is the keystone in the arch of socialism)
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To: Paladin2

People have told me the GPS in your phone can have its own power source, and requires very little power itself...


44 posted on 03/03/2013 9:10:38 AM PST by Tammy8 (~Secure the border and deport all illegals- do it now! ~ Support our Troops!~)
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To: null and void; Vince Ferrer
They want you to think that drones look like aircraft but have developed drones that appear as insects and even hawks soaring on thermals so as to circle your home.

.

.

45 posted on 03/03/2013 9:49:09 AM PST by Lady Jag (If you can't make them see the light, let them feel the heat. - Reagan)
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To: Paladin2; Chode
How do they track cell phones with the battery removed?

My understanding (I DO NOT own a cell phone) is that removing the battery won't do it. The SIM (subscriber identity module) card, where all your info is stored, is powered by an internal, non-removable battery.

You must remove both the battery AND the SIM card to be untrackable.

Those with more/other knowledge please respond.

46 posted on 03/03/2013 11:41:51 AM PST by upchuck (nobama fact #69: For each job created by the nobama administration, 75 people went on food stamps.)
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To: upchuck
not as far as my electrical knowledge goes

the phone is traceable if they know the number, they can poll the phone then triangulate with cell towers so long as the battery is in

the SIM doesn't communicate with the tower

47 posted on 03/03/2013 12:20:56 PM PST by Chode (Stand UP and Be Counted, or line up and be numbered - *DTOM* -ww- NO Pity for the LAZY)
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To: James C. Bennett
Think about it: Afghanistan's people are armed to the gills with fully automatic machine guns AND anti-aircraft weaponry. The drones fly in and out with little concern over being shot down. Granted, the comparison may not be fully apples-to-apples, but you have to account for the fact that they have a more deadlier collection of weapons at the hands of their civilian population compared to what the American "citizen" is allowed by the government to possess.

The Afghans also have an advantage that is impossible in America: A tribal command structure with a degree of family loyalty that is impenetrable.

"Honor your father and mother, THAT YOUR DAYS WILL BE LONG IN THE LAND THAT THE LORD THY G-D GIVETH THEE."

People go to church, blather the words, and have no idea what they mean.

48 posted on 03/03/2013 12:28:53 PM PST by Carry_Okie (The environment is too complex and too important to be "protected" by government.)
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To: Lady Jag
They want you to think that drones look like aircraft but have developed drones that appear as insects and even hawks soaring on thermals so as to circle your home.

Some engineers will do anything for anybody, just as long as it's a cool problem to solve.

49 posted on 03/03/2013 12:32:08 PM PST by Carry_Okie (The environment is too complex and too important to be "protected" by government.)
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To: Carry_Okie
Money is the ticket and there is big money all over this planet that needs more play time and toys like governments and media.
50 posted on 03/03/2013 1:13:07 PM PST by Lady Jag (If you can't make them see the light, let them feel the heat. - Reagan)
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