Why is the Department of Homeland Security buying so many bullets?

Fox News ^ | February 14, 2013

[Zakeet]

Online rumors about a big government munitions purchase are true, sort of.

The Homeland Security Department wants to buy more than 1.6 billion rounds of ammunition in the next four or five years. It says it needs them -- roughly the equivalent of five bullets for every person in the United States -- for law enforcement agents in training and on duty.

[Zakeet]

You stupid Right Wing Nuts don't need to be concerned about the fact that we are buying enough ammo to kill every American five times ... even if it is more than 30 times what the military used to wage the Iraq War ... because we need half of those hollow point rounds for target practice ... and we need the other half of them to stop illegal immigrants before they can enter this country and vote for Democrats ... and we are buying in bulk because we want to save you taxpayers some money ... and it is merely an amazing coincidence that we are drying up supplies at the exact same time that we are proposing to confiscate your guns!

[paint_your_wagon]

Grandma!!! What big teeth you have!

[Timber Rattler]

I think that they’re actually trying to buy up all the ammunition to drive up prices and ultimately dry up the market, in line with Obama’s usual “we can’t wait on Congress/Administrative action” strategy. If they can’t get the guns, then they can get the ammo.

[originalbuckeye]

I am starting to think the bullets are for Obama’s Brown Shirt......er Blue Shirt Fema Corps. You know, all those young men, age 18-24, being trained to help out in a time of crisis?

[liberalh8ter]

Why is the Department of Homeland Security buying so many bullets?

Because every bullet they buy, is one less bullet you can buy.

[Flintlock]

Why?

Why—they’re to SHOOT YOU with, that’s why.

What else?

[FreedomPoster]

“Also seize the provisions and ammunition that the enemy is bringing up from the rear to the front.”

Mao, Basic Tactics

[The_Sword_of_Groo]

Post of the thread!

[Max in Utah]

“And Grandma, what a big ammo order you have!”

“The better to enslave you with, my dear.”

[LibsRJerks]

I don’t know why, but I’m about to write my representative and ask that we are provided a clear answer. It’s really getting ridiculous to hear about this, to hear all the speculation, and yet no one seems to want to answer for it.

[ThunderSleeps]

Let’s look at this rationally. 1.6 billion round sounds like a lot, but really isn’t. Dhs has absorbed several other agencies. 200k people in dhs now. Let’s estimate maybe half of them are agents of some sort that need to carry, thus need to train. That’s 16,000 rounds per agent over five years. Figure you want to keep maybe 3000 rounds in reserve per agent - that’s not much, I’ve got a thousand myself, and i don’t even rely on my firearm for work. That’s 13000 to train with and shoot over 5 years, or 2600 per year. That’s less than 200 rounds a month for proficiency training, if you hold some in reserve for annual requalification. You guys know me, I’m no fan of big government, nor obama, but this doesn’t seem scary or unreasonable to me. Yeah it is a lot of rounds, but they are a big department... Maybe we should work on shrinking and streamlining them, then they wouldn’t suck up so much of our ammo.

[norwaypinesavage]

The numbers still don’t add up. The article says that DHS ordered 750 million rounds, and uses 15 million rounds per year in training. That’s a fifty year supply. Why?

[Daveinyork]

Big Sis: “So many people to shoot, so little time.”

[Texas resident]

If this is no big deal, how come the feds haven’t been doing this for years?
Why are the feds just recently purchasing up billions of rounds?
Why are federal agencies like the social security admin purchasing huge amounts of ammo?
When in the past have manufacturers of ammo been cranking out ammo at this rate?

Logically, your case would make sense if all the feds were practicing as much as the case makes, but really do you think they are really practicing that much?

And hollow points are not practice rounds.

IMHO, they are doing two things at once. One, dry up the supply. Two stock up for when the shtf so they can either protect themselves or turn their weapons on the American citizens. Given their complete lack of any morality or civility, I wouldn’t be surprised is all of the above comes to pass.

[kenmcg]

During his first presidential campaign Bama spoke of institutuing a new national police force. That force is coming about in Homeland Security. Vehicles marked Police Homeland Security have been seen all over the place.

[kiryandil]

You guys know me, I’m no fan of big government, nor obama, but this doesn’t seem scary or unreasonable to me. Yeah it is a lot of rounds, but they are a big department...

Teh Constitution:

"To raise and support armies, but no appropriation of money to that use shall be for a longer term than two years;"

The Founders were down on standing armies, for some reason...

[USAF80]

The majority are most likely pencil pushers.

On an everage Air Force base of 8000 only about 400-500 will actually have a need for weapons training on a continual basis and this is the security and special units types.

The AF is pretty stingy when it comes to ammo.

[kiryandil]

During his first presidential campaign Bama spoke of institutuing a new national police force. That force is coming about in Homeland Security. Vehicles marked Police Homeland Security have been seen all over the place.

I've seen several over the past year.

The large black fuel-guzzling kind - the better to remind the peasantry who's REALLY got the whip hand, and who can afford to blow money on gasoline, and who can't...

[Casie]

Exactly! And how did you like the line about, "We're just buying them because they are on sale and we're getting such a good deal." Really? Since when does the government care what anything costs? They never look at price tags and never will. Its such a stupid lie.

Its like asking Hitler why he is purchasing so many canisters of poisonous gas, and building so many air tight showering facilities. "Oh, you know. They were on sale, and we got such a good deal!"

[trebb]

Wake up - instead of the usual 1 year at a time deal, they’re supposedly going 5 years out, but we won’t know that for another year. They claim it’s for economy, but since when are they concerned about responsible oversight of our tax dollars? They have thousands more armed Federal ‘agents” than ever before and are buying ammo not typically used by LEO folks. They tell us that it’s OK because they are just saving us money and some folks buy it despite all the lies coming out of their pie holes. I guess it’s easier to try to settle into the feel-good mode of believing they really do have our best interests at heart.

[Lee N. Field]

because we need half of those hollow point rounds for target practice

If I wasn't paying for my own ammo, you bet I'd be using the hollowpoints, even the expensive $1/round social purposes stuff, for practice.

[Jack Hydrazine]

They want the volume discount!

[aMorePerfectUnion]

Massive civil unrest in major cities this summer.

Same reason they are desensitizing us to military operations in major cities.

[DManA]

Us: “Why do you need a billion bullets?”
Then: “We got such a good deal we couldn’t afford NOT to buy a billion bullets.

[EricT.]

You sure do assume that federal agents spend a lot of time on the gun range. I don’t buy it.

In the late 1980’s I was assigned to a Naval Security detachment on a major weapons depot with possible high-value weapons. We trained with firearms more than most other non-SEAL Navy personnel, and that was still less than 800 rounds per year each, total. That included rifle, pistol, shotgun, and the bulk of it was M-60 machinegun quals.

I hope that DHS doesn’t have 100K agents trained to be SAW gunners.

Currently, I have a friend who manufactures custom ammunition. He just told me last night that he is several thousand rounds behind on filling 9mm orders and can’t find those bullets anywhere at any price.

Something hinky is going on.

[ops33]

I believe the same thing. I’ve read that a lot of the ammo purchased is 380 hollow points, that same as I have in my 2 pistols. You don’t use hollow points for training.

[ops33]

I believe the same thing. I’ve read that a lot of the ammo purchased is 380 hollow points, that same as I have in my 2 pistols. You don’t use hollow points for training.

[ops33]

I believe the same thing. I’ve read that a lot of the ammo purchased is 380 hollow points, that same as I have in my 2 pistols. You don’t use hollow points for training.

[jiggyboy]

Bingo. Radio talk show hosts never consider this possibility. The government can write as many pretend checks as it wants to and just adds it to the deficit.

[Travis McGee]

[buffaloguy]

According to industry information coming from the SHOT show and some other industry sources, ammo manufacturers are producing 1 billion rounds per week. The order by the government is about a week and a half of production.

So it isn’t that much.

[bgill]

The agencies don't add up either. FOX only addressed the purchases made by DHS and ICE but nary a mention of the other dozen of agencies who have made such purchases that don't have any use for them. FOX makes this out to be about future orders but we've known about this for a year. Speaking of the future or possibly ESP visions of the future, we all wondered why the education department needed ammo and (que the Twilight Zone music) then Newton happened and now there's a rush to get armed guards resource officers.

[DH]

All that one has to understand that ANYTHING THE GOVERNMENT SAYS IS A LIE!

We aren’t stupid, we know the reason very well and won’t accept the government propaganda lies on this subject.

IT’S TO DEFEAT FREE AMERICANS SO THAT THEY CAN INSTALL COMMUNISM HERE AT HOME!

[Ruy Dias de Bivar]

***That’s 13000 to train with and shoot over 5 years, or 2600 per year. ***

When I was in the USAF we were trained with 100 rounds rifle and 50 rounds pistol per year. That was back in 1966-1969.

Two years we used M-16s, two years with M-1 carbines, S&W revolvers.

[NoLibZone]

OBama does what he does becassue all conservatives will do is call RUSH or post here.

God Bless the boldness the left has to get in the street and in our faces.

I wish the right had but .0001 as much.

Ohh but we have to work rather than save our children...

Maybe next week after the BBQ.

[ansel12]

and i don’t even rely on my firearm for work. That’s 13000 to train with and shoot over 5 years, or 2600 per year.

They don't rely on a firearm either, they merely carry one, just as a city cop or a security guard does. Do cops and MPs, both of whom are more likely to engage in a shootout, use 2600 rounds per year?

[ansel12]

Also 3,000 bullets in reserve per agent, would be HUGE. If or when a big shootout like WACO happens, then bullets could be brought in to supply the agents engaged in the battle, but few if any of the agents will ever see such a thing during their career, so why would each individual nationally, need to have such a massive combat load backing him?

[Carry_Okie]

It says it needs them -- roughly the equivalent of five bullets for every person in the United States -- for law enforcement agents in training and on duty.

Hollow-points for training? Riiiight.

Too bad reporters are so freaking ignorant.

[vox_freedom]

"If you see something, say something."

OK, I see it:

[apoliticalone]

And what the media says too. Misinformation has become a way of life per “Dept of Propaganda and Misinformation”

[GOPJ]

I am starting to think the bullets are for Obama’s Brown Shirt......er Blue Shirt Fema Corps. You know, all those young men, age 18-24, being trained to help out in a time of crisis?

Obama talked about wanting a private domestic army... it on some other thread.

[USAF80]

The M16s were converted to shoot .22s so the average Joe never shot 5.56. Only the cops would shoot 5.56.

The last time I qualified years ago I didn’t even use real ammo. They had an airline hooked up to a magazine, the weapon would recoil just like the real thing but shot a laser instead of bullets. The training facility was a kind of virtual reality set up.

[Terry Mross]

You’re right. It’s for his 250,000 man police force. And look when they’re to be purchased. In the next four or FIVE years. I’m sure he plans on having absolute power by then.

[Macgedos]

One might think this move reveals his true plans for America all along, to recruit and arm that private army that he spoke about in his speeches in 08 prior to getting elected. “ A well armed army inside our borders” would have to be under Homeland Security.( they could already exist but short on ammo.)Police dept’s throughout the country have their own suppliers and purchase their own ammo and weapons ( its a part of their annual budget), the same applies to county and state. This measure may tend to cause some to think that something big is coming down the pike like gun confiscation after gun owners refuse to register or cooperate with an executive order to turn in their guns. (regardless ) Whatever decision the congress may come up with regarding our firearms, may not be enough to satisfy some in this administration and the president may have his own answers for that. After all, his sec. of state (Hillary Clinton) already went against our constitution by signing a small arms control agreement with the UN, contrary to our 2nd amendment.( A constitution that she swore under oath to preserve and protect.) By any measure she has already committed perjury and treason and nothing much was being said about it by our congress or our media. Our president says that he doesn’t want to take our guns, but then Fast and Furious comes along and is the cause of deaths to Americans and several hundred Mexicans in Mexico, and, all avenues lead congressional investigators to this administration and Justice dept. whom have put themselves above the law and refused to testify or cooperate with congressional subpenas . This administration answers to no one and our media goes without response or even a question , now it is at a stalemate and over shadowed by other events but most Americans that own firearms and pay attention to these matters will never forget. The sole purpose of Fast and Furious was fouled after a whistle blower (federal agent)lost a friend with one of these firearms and revealed the story to a media source that was too big for them to not report. (After all they are suppose to be in the business to report the news and make some profit.) Now this latest school shooting tragedy has accomplished even more than Fast and Furious could ever have accomplished and I believe this president will use that tragedy to his full advantage and power and then some...I believe in my heart that this has been his personal goal from the onset and everything about him points in that direction. I believe he wants all our arms and thinks that this is his golden opportunity.

So, can we say our president or any member of his administration has never lied to the American people ? All I can say at this point is that is a lot of ammunition for homeland security to acquire and we hope and pray there is not some sinister reason behind it.

When reliable sources break this kind of news to the American people and it is admitted to by the head of homeland security it is freighting to many of us that we should fear our own government in such a way.

[Gene Eric]

>> All I can say at this point is that is a lot of ammunition for homeland security to acquire and we hope and pray there is not some sinister reason behind it.

The shortest path to re-Constituting the Country would involve “sinister” stupidity. Ain’t gonna happen.

Worst case, the purchases represent an obnoxious, but hollow show of force. Best case, the cache is for training, inventory, budget expenditures.

[Cheerio]

The numbers still don’t add up. The article says that DHS ordered 750 million rounds, and uses 15 million rounds per year in training. That’s a fifty year supply. Why?

If the Government were purchasing a 50 year supply they are breaking the law. They are restricted to using the current appropriation to fund the current year's need, and the Contracting Officer issuing the contract knows darn well the requirement of the Bona Fide Needs rule. Turn him in and file a Qui Tam law suit.

The Bona Fide Needs Rule is one of the fundamental principles of federal appropriations law. Simply stated, a "fiscal year appropriation may be obligated only to meet a legitimate, or bona fide, need arising in, or in some cases arising prior to, but continuing to exist in, the fiscal year for which the appropriation was made." (The underlying statute is 31 U.S.C. § 1502(a), sometimes called the "bona fide needs statute").

The bona fide need rule, found at 31 U.S.C. Sec. 1502 (1988), precludes an agency from obligating, without express statutory authority, an appropriation made for a specified period for the needs of subsequent periods. Generally this is for Multi Year contracting but would not be valid for purchasing Commercial Items, but rather for the procurement of Government only items like F-22 aircraft where Congress is required to appropriate funds for the possibility of termination costs should subsequent Congresses refuse to continue the program.

Purchasing more than ONE year's worth of goods or supplied is forbidden by the law.

[Elsie]

Why is the Department of Homeland Security buying so many bullets?

Uh...

It has hacked the JR files and found out just how MANY Freepers there are??

[Elsie]

Mao, Basic Tactics

There's nothing new under the sun.
--Solomon - Wisdom of

---

All warfare is based on deception.

Hence, when we are able to attack, we must seem unable;
when using our forces, we must appear inactive;
when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away;
when far away, we must make him believe we are near.
--Tzu Sun

[eak3]

Well considering during the Iraq War stats claim the military used around 70 million rounds per year. So and order for 1.6 billion rounds is way beyond the norm when it comes to ammo purchases. It’s likely for 2 things: A: To make it hard to come by for John Q Citizen, which it is and B: To use against John Q Citizen once the inevitable meltdown takes place. You don’t order hollow points unless your intention is to kill something with it.

http://www.examiner.com/article/feds-explanation-of-hollow-point-bullets-raises-more-questions