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Dresden deserves to be remembered
UK Telegraph ^ | 02/13/2013 | Tom Chivers

Posted on 02/13/2013 9:04:00 AM PST by Kid Shelleen

It's the 68th anniversary of the Dresden bombing. In Britain, we don't think about it as much as, perhaps, we should. The bare facts. More than 1,200 RAF and USAAF bombers attacked the city between the 13th and 15th of February 1945, in four raids. They dropped 3,900 tons of high explosive and incendiary bombs, killing between 22,000 and 25,000 people, almost all civilians. The city's anti-aircraft defences had all been moved to defend the industrial works of the Ruhr valley. The details are chilling.

(Excerpt) Read more at blogs.telegraph.co.uk ...


TOPICS: News/Current Events; United Kingdom
KEYWORDS: anniversary; dresden; raf; wwii
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1 posted on 02/13/2013 9:04:03 AM PST by Kid Shelleen
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To: Kid Shelleen

It worked.


2 posted on 02/13/2013 9:05:33 AM PST by cripplecreek (REMEMBER THE RIVER RAISIN!)
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To: cripplecreek


3 posted on 02/13/2013 9:09:40 AM PST by KC_Lion (Build the America you want to live in at your address, and keep looking up.-Sarah Palin)
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To: cripplecreek
It worked.

LOL. I was thinking the very same thing.

War isn't what it used to be. War wasn't fought the way it is now. People today expect that only combatants will be killed. Civilian casualties are seen as media fodder.

Back then, it was the duty of a responsible citizenry to stand up against the idea of war, because it meant that any one of them could die by the enemy's gun. Today, "leaders" declare unilateral action against an enemy and expect everyone to get behind them.

4 posted on 02/13/2013 9:09:57 AM PST by rarestia (It's time to water the Tree of Liberty.)
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To: cripplecreek

Worked at what? Hampering the war effort by killing civilians and refugees? Not likely. In fact, you can make a decent argument that the fewer refugees around the easier it was for the Wehrmacht to operate.

But long after the fact moral denunciations give me a pain. Which is why I thought the Demanjuk persecution was so over the top.


5 posted on 02/13/2013 9:10:14 AM PST by Sherman Logan
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To: Kid Shelleen
I keep hearing Germans apologizing for bombing London.

Not!

6 posted on 02/13/2013 9:10:45 AM PST by Sirius Lee (All that is required for evil to advance is for government to do "something")
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To: cripplecreek

It’s called “War”.
One sides loses, the other side wins.


7 posted on 02/13/2013 9:10:45 AM PST by Recovering Ex-hippie (Go Galt!)
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To: cripplecreek
Amazingly some people survived ~ Kurt Vonnegutt jr. and a fellow named Eberhardt Rheimers ~ knew both of them ~ guys even lived in my neighborhood(s) at different times ~ Kurt while growing up, and Eberhardt as a buddy in a commuter group ~ he even helped me negotiate the deal or the commuter pick up operation in Springfield VA.

Two guys who witnessed it as young men and both of them thought of it as unecessary and inordinately brutal. The Brits knew that, not that it changed anybody's mind ~ after action surveys in bombed over civilian districts found that it simply strengthened their resolve to resist.

Now, tell me what part worked

8 posted on 02/13/2013 9:11:06 AM PST by muawiyah
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To: Kid Shelleen

I remember it was a city that sat on the thumbs while its leader took its country to hell just like we are today.


9 posted on 02/13/2013 9:11:06 AM PST by bmwcyle (People who do not study history are destine to believe really ignorant statements.)
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To: cripplecreek

This “remembrance” is being forced mostly due to the neo-Nazis marching in that city and lying about the death toll (saying that up to 240,000 or more died).


10 posted on 02/13/2013 9:13:00 AM PST by Olog-hai
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To: Kid Shelleen

It was total war. And effective. Any sympathy I have is always tempered by the box cars full of Jews bound for Osweicum(sp?). A lot of civilians knew what was going on but did nothing..


11 posted on 02/13/2013 9:13:00 AM PST by cardinal4 (Constitution? What Constitution?)
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To: Kid Shelleen

A war crime that should have been prosecuted and everyone involved executed by firing squad.


12 posted on 02/13/2013 9:13:29 AM PST by TheRhinelander
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Comment #13 Removed by Moderator

To: Kid Shelleen

Killing civilians: the elderly, women and children was an act of evil. God wasn’t pleased with the firebombing of innocents!


14 posted on 02/13/2013 9:14:36 AM PST by IbJensen (Liberals are like Slinkies, good for nothing, but you smile as you push them down the stairs.)
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To: Recovering Ex-hippie

Funny how it was the last war America actually won.

I’m not real concerned with what the folks with retreating genitalia think.


15 posted on 02/13/2013 9:15:58 AM PST by cripplecreek (REMEMBER THE RIVER RAISIN!)
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To: Kid Shelleen

Yes, I so well remember reading about how all those Luftwaffe bomber pilots had to expose themselves to additional risks in the sky above London in order to avoid hitting any civilian dwellings or bomb shelters back in 1940.

This is sarcasm most extreme.


16 posted on 02/13/2013 9:16:42 AM PST by Steely Tom (If the Constitution can be a living document, I guess a corporation can be a person.)
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To: cripplecreek; TheRhinelander; IbJensen
Killing civilians: the elderly, women and children was an act of evil. God wasn’t pleased with the firebombing of innocents!


17 posted on 02/13/2013 9:16:57 AM PST by KC_Lion (Build the America you want to live in at your address, and keep looking up.-Sarah Palin)
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To: US Navy Vet

These innocents weren’t responsible for the killing.

Besides, if you read your history you’ll find that the Brits bombed German cities first.

The senseless murder of the Jews was an act that was so shrouded in secrecy that the populace had no idea what was going on.


18 posted on 02/13/2013 9:18:02 AM PST by IbJensen (Liberals are like Slinkies, good for nothing, but you smile as you push them down the stairs.)
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To: Kid Shelleen

Part of the reason for this whining over the last decade or so is that the writers have never been in a situation that could be considered “Total War”.

May God continue to protect us from Total War. Amen.


19 posted on 02/13/2013 9:18:53 AM PST by buffaloguy
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To: muawiyah
Now, tell me what part worked

How many wars has Germany started since?

20 posted on 02/13/2013 9:18:58 AM PST by Last Dakotan
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To: Kid Shelleen

“I don’t know, and can’t know, whether the Dresden attack was militarily justified. Nowadays it would be morally unthinkable, of course...”

I thought that military materiel was stored in Dresden? Wouldn’t that make it a target?


21 posted on 02/13/2013 9:19:51 AM PST by SMARTY ("The man who has no inner-life is a slave to his surroundings. "Henri Frederic Amiel)
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To: Steely Tom; cripplecreek; IbJensen; TheRhinelander; muawiyah; Sherman Logan
By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.

Remember, O L-rd, The Children of Edom in the day of Jerusalem who said, "Raze it, raze it, even to the foundation."

O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed. How happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us.

Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.

Psalm 137:1, 7-9

Do You Know What That Means?


22 posted on 02/13/2013 9:21:06 AM PST by KC_Lion (Build the America you want to live in at your address, and keep looking up.-Sarah Palin)
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To: KC_Lion

This was as cruel and inhuman as humanity can sink; however, this can never excuse what was perpetrated on Dresden. Those burned alive in that attack were innocent of what was going on in the death camps manned by the scum of German and Eastern Europe society.

I expect we’d find a few Obama idiots who would gladly do that to America’s Conservatives.


23 posted on 02/13/2013 9:22:50 AM PST by IbJensen (Liberals are like Slinkies, good for nothing, but you smile as you push them down the stairs.)
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To: Last Dakotan
Actually, after substantial research on the matter I fail to see how bombing Dresden did any good at all.

That Germany hasn't fought any wars in recent years is due to a great number of factors, most of all the American armament and feeding of the Russian Army ~

24 posted on 02/13/2013 9:22:54 AM PST by muawiyah
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To: Sherman Logan

It was a terrible event. Maybe completely unnecessary, but I’m looking back from the safety of 2013, so I just don’t know what I would do in the same place.

But they did have it coming to them. That I cannot deny.


25 posted on 02/13/2013 9:23:42 AM PST by VanDeKoik
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To: KC_Lion

It has nothing to do with an excuse for the firebombing of Dresden.


26 posted on 02/13/2013 9:24:51 AM PST by IbJensen (Liberals are like Slinkies, good for nothing, but you smile as you push them down the stairs.)
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To: muawiyah

Slaughterhouse Five.


27 posted on 02/13/2013 9:25:45 AM PST by cuban leaf (Were doomed! Details at eleven.)
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To: KC_Lion
Folks will just have to forgive my lack of sympathy for those who allowed, encouraged, or participated in events that led to the war.

Image Hosted by ImageShack.us
28 posted on 02/13/2013 9:25:49 AM PST by cripplecreek (REMEMBER THE RIVER RAISIN!)
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To: Kid Shelleen

So? Germany started the war. If a nation doesn’t like war then they shouldn’t wage war. War is about killing every single person identified with the nation and destroying everything in that nation until that nation ceases to exist or unconditionally surrenders.

Dresden had it coming in spades.


29 posted on 02/13/2013 9:26:02 AM PST by CodeToad (Liberals are bloodsucking ticks. We need to light the matchstick to burn them off.)
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To: cardinal4

I’ve always seen it as Germany’s Hiroshima.


30 posted on 02/13/2013 9:26:37 AM PST by cuban leaf (Were doomed! Details at eleven.)
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To: Kid Shelleen
I think British people are very interested in this subject. I had a conversation with two English friends recently abut this subject. We were talking about Hiroshima and they were condemning it. I said: that's fine but just don't bring that up with your average member of the “greatest generation” - they think it ended the war and saved countless American lives. From there, we went to Dresden which one condemned and one supported. Then they fought about poor Bomber Harris’s reputation. Finally, we ended with the bombing of Coventry - which both thought was horrible but not as bad as Dresden - because, get this: Coventry’s architecture was not as important as Dresden.

But you couldn't say my pals weren't interested...

31 posted on 02/13/2013 9:26:52 AM PST by miss marmelstein ( Richard Lives Yet!)
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To: Kid Shelleen

I always imagined things would have gone differently in Dresden had the Germans not fired V2 after V2 after V1 into London for the years prior. But what do I know?


32 posted on 02/13/2013 9:28:13 AM PST by Cyber Liberty (Obama considers the Third World morally superior to the United States.)
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To: IbJensen; cripplecreek
So you don't know what Psalm 137:1, 7-9 means.

How about this one instead.

Exodus 15:3

The L-rd is a Man of War.


33 posted on 02/13/2013 9:28:13 AM PST by KC_Lion (Build the America you want to live in at your address, and keep looking up.-Sarah Palin)
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To: Kid Shelleen

The book, “Dresden - February 13, 1945” by Frederick Taylor, published in 2005, makes it quite clear that there were valid reasons for the bombing of Dresden, particularly the fact that it was a key rail intersection between the West and East Fronts, allowing rapid movement of troops and supplies to both fronts. Additionally, there was a still a fairly large industrial component present in the city that supported the war effort. The railroad component of the argument, by itself, in my mind, would be sufficient to warrant the city’s destruction.


34 posted on 02/13/2013 9:28:24 AM PST by BlueLancer ("Oh, man, that's a lot of Indians!" [LTC George A. Custer, 1876, near the Little Bighorn Valley])
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To: IbJensen

“God wasn’t pleased with the firebombing of innocents!”

There were no innocents in the aggressor nation of Germany. Sorry, but they deserved the war in return that they started. If you don’t like war don’t start one.


35 posted on 02/13/2013 9:28:50 AM PST by CodeToad (Liberals are bloodsucking ticks. We need to light the matchstick to burn them off.)
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To: cripplecreek

Not as well as the raid on Tokyo which killed 100,000 people in one night. The incendiaries dropped on a city that was mostly wood destroyed over 90% of the place.


36 posted on 02/13/2013 9:29:12 AM PST by Jimmy Valentine (DemocRATS - when they speak, they lie; when they are silent, they are stealing the American Dream)
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To: cripplecreek

Not really. Yeah a lot of people got killed, but the level of destruction steeled the resolve of the Germans, and correctly appalled the allies, and the general that masterminded it was quietly pushed aside for being a little too bomb happy. Being the good guys comes at a certain price.


37 posted on 02/13/2013 9:29:51 AM PST by discostu (Not just another moon faced assassin of joy.)
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Comment #38 Removed by Moderator

To: muawiyah

My parents were on a train being evacuated from Oppeln to the West, trying to avoid being “liberated” by Stalin ( for a second time!). They were sidetracked just outside the city when the raid began. If that train had been a couple of hours earlier....


39 posted on 02/13/2013 9:30:03 AM PST by Kozak (The Republic is dead. I do not owe what we have any loyalty, wealth or sympathy.)
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To: Sirius Lee

WTH has happened to FR with all the bleeding hearts who believe the propaganda without even questioning it?

Let’s say it — the Hussein Head media wants us to say it was UNFAIR — that we bombed Dresden, won the war, put a man on the moon... We sure fixed NASA for that when we couldn’t come up with muslim “contributions” to the space program.

Hussein Heads and enabling “freepers” — I’m getting very disillusioned here.

Which way is Mecca?

I better get used to it — HEIL HUSSEIN!!!


40 posted on 02/13/2013 9:30:29 AM PST by treetopsandroofs (Had FDR been GOP, there would have been no World Wars, just "The Great War" and "Roosevelt's Wars".)
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To: CodeToad

Failure of the United States to maintain effective neutrality in WWI led directly to the postwar conditions that resulted in the rise of the Nazis and then the initiation of WWII.


41 posted on 02/13/2013 9:31:05 AM PST by muawiyah
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To: TheRhinelander

Ich glaube bei der peeps Vogel...


42 posted on 02/13/2013 9:31:10 AM PST by null and void (Gun confiscation enables tyranny. Don't enable tyranny.)
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To: TheRhinelander
War crimes are imposed by the winner against the loser.

Germans were losers.

The Germans had no compunction against targeting civilian populations.

The RAF bombers who carried out the attack were patriots who did their duty.

Comments like yours makes me think we were far too merciful.

As Churchill pointed out - the German is either at your feet or at your throat.

43 posted on 02/13/2013 9:31:34 AM PST by allmendream (Tea Party did not send GOP to D.C. to negotiate the terms of our surrender to socialism)
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To: BlueLancer

“The railroad component of the argument, by itself, in my mind, would be sufficient to warrant the city’s destruction.”

The fact that there was one single living person in the city warrants its total destruction. The mere fact the city existed warranted its total destruction. It was war, not a civil matter but a military one. Kill everyone and destroy everything until the enemy ceases to exist or unconditionally surrenders; that is war.


44 posted on 02/13/2013 9:31:34 AM PST by CodeToad (Liberals are bloodsucking ticks. We need to light the matchstick to burn them off.)
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To: BlueLancer

I’ve seen so many figures for the total number of fatalities in the Dresden raids. 140,000 is the number that was once bandied about.


45 posted on 02/13/2013 9:31:34 AM PST by Monterrosa-24 (...even more American than a French bikini and a Russian AK-47.)
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To: BlueLancer

I’ve seen so many figures for the total number of fatalities in the Dresden raids. 140,000 is the number that was once bandied about.


46 posted on 02/13/2013 9:31:52 AM PST by Monterrosa-24 (...even more American than a French bikini and a Russian AK-47.)
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To: cripplecreek
Folks will just have to forgive my lack of sympathy for those who allowed, encouraged, or participated in events that led to the war.

Remember, Many Supported those ideas when they first came around.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQvsf2MUKRQ


47 posted on 02/13/2013 9:32:07 AM PST by KC_Lion (Build the America you want to live in at your address, and keep looking up.-Sarah Palin)
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To: Sherman Logan

Dresden was a transportation hub and despite being considered an ‘open city’ the city was home to over 300 small-to-large factories that were turning out war materiel for the German forces. The rail yard was full of arms and ammunition as was evidenced by multiple observed secondary explosions during the bombing raid. The synthetic oil refineries were also valid military targets. Add to this the presence of flak units deployed around Dresden as seen in the German newsreel, “Die Deutsche Wochenschau”, of 8 September 1943 and it is clear that the city was a valid military target.

That a bunch of Germans perished in the attacks bothers me not in the least given that had the Germans been able to do the same to an American city there is no doubt that they would have.


48 posted on 02/13/2013 9:33:12 AM PST by MeganC (Liberals fool people by walking upright.)
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To: IbJensen
I expect we’d find a few Obama idiots who would gladly do that to America’s Conservatives.

You could even find a few that think burning Chris Dorner alive was a fine idea...

49 posted on 02/13/2013 9:33:31 AM PST by null and void (Gun confiscation enables tyranny. Don't enable tyranny.)
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Comment #50 Removed by Moderator


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