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A US Default Would Be The Financial Equivalent Of This Painting Of Hell
TBI ^ | 1-14-2013 | Brett LoGiurato

Posted on 01/14/2013 2:03:02 PM PST by blam

A US Default Would Be The Financial Equivalent Of This Painting Of Hell

Brett LoGiurato
January 14, 2013

Earlier today, President Barack Obama almost dared Republicans to not increase the nation's borrowing limit in a White House press conference.

"If Congressional Republicans refuse to pay America’s bills on time, Social Security checks, veterans benefits will be delayed," Obama said. "... Investors around the world will ask if the United States of America is in fact a safe bet. Markets could go haywire. Interest rates would spike for anyone who borrowed money."

One analyst — Michael Feroli, the chief economist at JP Morgan — speculated what such a situation might look like, specifically if the U.S. missed a payment to bondholders.

It “would be like the financial market equivalent of that Hieronymus Bosch painting of hell,” Feroli told the Washington Post.

The painting is titled "The Garden of Earthly Delights" and is believed to have been painted by Bosch sometime between 1490 and 1510.

Here's what that painting looks like. The far right panel is the "hellscape."


(Excerpt) Read more at businessinsider.com ...


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: budget; debt; economy; recession; usdebt; usdefault; ushell

1 posted on 01/14/2013 2:03:15 PM PST by blam
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To: blam

Hell doesn’t fit on my TV.


2 posted on 01/14/2013 2:07:47 PM PST by Berlin_Freeper (Better safe than sorry.)
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To: blam

Years, ago, my Dad, who was a retired government employee, and an otherwise educated man (BS, LSU), asked me why couldn’t the federal debt be repudiated.

Said he, “After all, we owe the debt to ourselves, don’t we?”

Well, I am an educated man, too. (BS, Louisiana Tech).

My reply, “First thing that would happen is that government check you get in the mail every month wouldn’t cash.”

End of discussion.


3 posted on 01/14/2013 2:08:19 PM PST by abb
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To: abb

Somebody once repaid a debt to me via post office money order.

My bank wouldn’t take it...apparently they are too easy to counterfeit. I told them I would be glad to wait a week, or even two, for the funds to be made available, so they could be sure the money order cleared...nope.

Then I went on a strange journey, stopping by 4 post offices a couple of times each day, to see if their drawer ever had enough in it to cash the money order. The postal workers didn’t care one bit about my predicament, or their institution’s obligation to redeem the money order.

It took two and a half days to get cashed.

It was a little lesson in how much ‘full faith and credit’ our government institutions really have.


4 posted on 01/14/2013 2:24:13 PM PST by lacrew (Mr. Soetoro, we regret to inform you that your race card is over the credit limit.)
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To: blam

I don’t need a picture of Hell, I live in NY. BTW the plan is to retire in a few years, then LEAVE.


5 posted on 01/14/2013 2:27:47 PM PST by Brooklyn Attitude (Obama being re-elected is the political equivalent of OJ being found not guilty.)
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To: lacrew
Several lessons there ~ none of them having anything to do with full faith and credit. Cash drawer limits are fairly universal ~ not the amounts but the fact they exist.

USPS has about 50,000 cashdrawers, so figure $50 a hit ~ and that's several million bucks just sitting there ~ plus there's a risk of robbery.

What you forgot was peeps got bosses ~ just ask for the supervisor next time, or ask for the postmaster. They always have a bit more money in the safe!

Same thing at the bank ~ BTW, if you had an account with the bank they'd taken the money order ~ but if you wanted cash on the spot, the banks are not post offices.

6 posted on 01/14/2013 2:31:25 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: blam
"If Congressional Republicans refuse to pay America’s bills on time, Social Security checks, veterans benefits will be delayed," Obama said. "...

But you can bet that Congress and all federal employees would be paid and Mooch-elle would still have vaca money.

7 posted on 01/14/2013 2:53:00 PM PST by Aevery_Freeman (Proud Thought Criminal since 1984)
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To: muawiyah

“BTW, if you had an account with the bank they’d taken the money order”

Nope, when I called it ‘MY’ bank, that’s just what I meant - had an account for 20 years.

And I do think my parable is instructive on ‘full faith and credit’. You see, I shouldn’t have to drive around town to cash the money order. Nor should I have to ask to see a boss or have knowledge of thier safe logistics. The fine print on the money order contains a promise of payment, with the only condition being my showing proper ID. The USPS broke that promise. Repeatedly. And as a member of the great unwashed class, I had little recourse.

Let me exonerate myself of cash drawer ignorance. Yes, I am aware that drawers are ‘universal’...I’ve spied these creatures at banks and stores across the land. Now, if its such a problem keeping money in said drawers, a gubmint sponsored institution like the USPS has some other options:

1) Get out of the money order business
2) Limit their money orders to $200 increments. That would allow a serf like me to cash SOME of them at post office #1, and drive across town to cash some more at another post office. Can you see how its immoral to sell $1,000 money orders if they know their drawers start out each day with $20 in nickels.

Finally: “but if you wanted cash on the spot, the banks are not post offices”....which I why I mentioned that I was willing to wait WEEKS to get the money credited to my account.

I hope I’m making my point clearly. I didn’t desperately need the money, as I said I could wait weeks for the thing to clear. So what was my problem? My problem was that sinking feeling in my gut that I was NEVER going to get the money....at least not without hiring a lawyer. So, I lost just a little bit more trust in government institutions that day.


8 posted on 01/14/2013 3:00:16 PM PST by lacrew (Mr. Soetoro, we regret to inform you that your race card is over the credit limit.)
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To: abb

And to that he said?

And once again we learn that you may get an education at LaTech but not LSU unless you specialize in fubbbol and may eventually get out of USL.

Couldn’t resist.


9 posted on 01/14/2013 3:02:31 PM PST by Sequoyah101
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To: muawiyah; lacrew
Here's another story along the same lines, triggered by your statement about banks. In 2002 I went to a bank to cash a about a thousand bucks worth of $200 EE savings bonds I had purchased in 1992. I was told the bank would not cash them because I did not have an account there.

I called my credit union to see if they would cash the bonds. They said, "No, but what was the bank where you tried to cash them?" I said, "PNC." The guy at the CU said, "We get this from people all the time. Go back to the bank and tell them they're a Federal Reserve Bank, and they're required by law to liquidate US instruments."

I went back to the bank, I told them what the guy at the CU said. The clerk said, "No we aren't." I asked for the floor manager, who said, "Yes, we are. We'll give you a receipt and you can come back in 10 business days for your money." Bottom line: Federal employees and their various running dogs will make it as inconvenient as possible for you to use their financial services.

10 posted on 01/14/2013 3:16:03 PM PST by FredZarguna (In a well-regulated FReeper den, the right to create and deploy antimatter shall not be infringed.)
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To: blam

Study that Hieronymus Bosch artwork carefully. It’s the nearest rendering we have of what the inside of a liberal’s mind looks like without actually having to own one ourselves.


11 posted on 01/14/2013 3:22:58 PM PST by FredZarguna (In a well-regulated FReeper den, the right to create and deploy antimatter shall not be infringed.)
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To: FredZarguna

So, who was the federal employee?


12 posted on 01/14/2013 3:54:53 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: lacrew

odds are good no USPS cash drawer has $1000 in it ~ since there are procedures to make sure that doesn’t happen during the day. However, they can cash $1000 money orders ~ and the supervisor or postmaster would have been happy to tell you exactly how that would be done.


13 posted on 01/14/2013 4:04:31 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: muawiyah

“odds are good no USPS cash drawer has $1000 in it”

Well, I found one that had $900 in it....after 2.5 days of trying.

Now what you are telling me is that I should have been savy enough to know that the USPS employees (several employees from four different post offices, different people every day for 2.5 days), who sit at the counter, and are responsible for money transactions with the public....were completely bullsh$tting me.

And (armed with the knowledge that I was treated so poorly) that I should have walked away from this experience, not with a bad taste in my mouth about trusting govermnent sponsored institutions, but with a to-do list to bone up on my ‘how to get USPS employees to do their job’ skills.

I disagree.


14 posted on 01/14/2013 4:26:17 PM PST by lacrew (Mr. Soetoro, we regret to inform you that your race card is over the credit limit.)
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To: lacrew
Were you following me today?

I couldn't get anyone on the phone at the ones I called after going to two that were actual post offices, but contracted (not a mail boxes etc, but a contracted post office) - they don't cash them.....finally found one that did cash them. The clerk told me he didn't know if he'd be able to cash just over $200 in PMO, but I was shipping a package as well.

I can't wait until 0care kicks in full bore....all the efficiency and management of the post office with the full customer service and friendliness of the DMV.

15 posted on 01/14/2013 4:30:22 PM PST by Repeat Offender (What good are conservative principles if we don't stand by them?)
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To: lacrew
I spent many years handling a collateral duty called 'collect the money' ~ reviewing appeals from people who claimed they didn't really think the rules said they had to pay the postage rate they paid. I also spent many years actually researching processes and behavior in the field and WRITING those rules.

Sometimes they'd use the old 'but the employees told me' trick ~ alas that doesn't work with me. They'll drop a dime on a customer in a second ~ 'cause we got ways of watching them work ~ and will instantly refer inquiries about 'how much yo got in yo cash drawer boy' questions to somebody who is NOT sitting at a desk!

Did you see the guy with the gun?

Much of your difficulty is you asked a question that didn't trigger the response you think you wanted ~ ...... bet they've got your picture too.

16 posted on 01/14/2013 4:43:58 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: Repeat Offender

Small world.

BTW, I’ve had a small taste of Obamacare. I was in the Army....and I have around a dozen ‘war stories’ about the poor standard of care at the hospital that I bore people with.

But, the memory most burned in my mind was the pharmacy. There was a ‘take a number’ dispenser...and the people working there were a wee bit rude and nasty. There was no need for ‘customer service’...we were trapped as customers. I’ve actually had much better experiences at the DMV.


17 posted on 01/14/2013 4:50:13 PM PST by lacrew (Mr. Soetoro, we regret to inform you that your race card is over the credit limit.)
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To: muawiyah

“Much of your difficulty is you asked a question that didn’t trigger the response you think you wanted”

My bad. I thought “I’d like to cash this USPS money order” was the code. I must not have used the right handshake.

“bet they’ve got your picture too”....Thanks for the inside baseball. I had no idea that we lived in a 24/7 surveillance world. There’s probably a camera taping me while I’m crawled under that rock.

“Did you see the guy with the gun?” No. Next time I’ll walk behind the counter and go look for him. But, yes, I am very much impressed.

“cause we got ways of watching them work” - I have been involved in the design of a post office. I may not know how to cash a flipping money order, but I am aware of the viewing gallery. I am impressed that you have knowledge in both areas.

Now this is where the free market comes in...and maybe a glimpse into why the Post Office is insolvent. I will never, ever, under any circumstance, not in a million years, accept a USPS money order again. Now I know it was all my fault for not knowing how to crack the safe or low crawl around the guy with the gun...but still I’m going to shy away. And, quite frankly, I tell everybody I can to avoid them like the plague.

Aaaand...since I did such a poor job of procuring customer satisfaction for myself, I avoid the USPS at all costs. Electronic banking all the way, Fed-Ex for packages, e-mail relatives, the works. I haven’t bought a stamp in years. Once again, I know this is all the result of my own foolishness.


18 posted on 01/14/2013 5:10:15 PM PST by lacrew (Mr. Soetoro, we regret to inform you that your race card is over the credit limit.)
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To: lacrew
probably all for the best.

no, not cashing money orders isn't the reason for insolvency ~ you'll need to talk to your fascist pig congress critter about that. that's where the problems are. the PMG has a plan to shut down all sorts of surplus or unneeded capacity at a moment's notice but everyone in Congress has told him NO.

And yes, there are ways to see what went on without a video unit ~ but then, again, there may be video units. no one will tell you. it always draws attention to ask them where the surveillance cameras are.

Ever been to a walmart? their ceilings are almost black now with video monitor housings!

19 posted on 01/14/2013 5:20:21 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: lacrew
COX cable is worse. Went to a store to deal with an email problem. They wouldn't let me use my email service because they'd added a pin number requirement to my access and the only place you can get that pin number is on your bill ~ which if you use your bank's electronic payment service results in COX eliminating your mailed bill ~ the pin doesn't show on the electronic bill.

So, you have to go to a COX store.

We arrived in the morning. There were no customers. There were 5 COX employees on duty. Until I did a ringyding on the take a number device not a one of them even looked at me.

I knew that was going to be a bad day.

They did give me a new password and a pin and I went on my way after, of course, canceling my TV service, and discovered the password and pin wouldn't work. Subsequently they wouldn't talk to me over the phone ~ as usual ~ and i will not return to that COX store with anything short of a Howitzer!

If you can get service from someone besides COX do so.

20 posted on 01/14/2013 5:27:34 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: Sequoyah101
And to that he said?

We began talking about fishing...

21 posted on 01/14/2013 5:40:52 PM PST by abb
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To: FredZarguna

Gentlemen...

I noticed one can get the same treatment when cashing savings bonds even with an account! It is true that savings bonds can be cashed anywhere, but they don’t like it because of the time involved even if you have an account. Even if not a customer, they are probably compensated tho not much, by Treasury or something. They are required yes, tho a stack of bonds can take a half hour? It’s nice to call them ahead of time, too - even tho I had an account (checking) it was still a hassle with all that. And paper bonds have no longer been issued it’s electronic ledger book entries only. It can only get worse as time goes by and they are less common. In order to purchase bonds (and notes and bills and other things like TIPS) one has to open a Treasury account. And then you can head back to your friendly bank, because it has to be done in person iirc!

The teller even put a one day hold before the deposit could be transferred to another named account? Get this, I had cash in hand, and if I had thought of it at the time I would have re-deposited some of the cash directly into the account! I was pondering a 1 day hold on Savings Bonds, I guess.

Pretty much all banks and institutions are not keen on doing anything financial unless one is a customer i.e. has an account. That’s not news.


22 posted on 01/14/2013 5:57:11 PM PST by Freedom4US
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To: muawiyah
So, who was the federal employee?

From the post, which apparently you did not read very well: "... and their various running dogs ..."

23 posted on 01/14/2013 9:06:15 PM PST by FredZarguna (In a well-regulated FReeper den, the right to create and deploy antimatter shall not be infringed.)
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To: abb

Good and good choice.

South of I-10, “You can eat that!”

North of I-10, last words, “Watch this!”


24 posted on 01/14/2013 9:17:49 PM PST by Sequoyah101
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To: blam

Only Obama can “default” on U,S, debt obligations and not raising the debt ceiling limit does not require, does not mandate any default; in fact, Constitutionally Obama is required to first cut federal spending ANTWHERE BUT what must be paid on federal debt obligations.

There is more than enough revenue to pay our debt obligations and to pay for some other things. Obama wants to spend as he has spent since 2009 without compromise.

Congress is not morally or Constitutionally required to NOT demand he compromise.


25 posted on 01/14/2013 9:51:31 PM PST by Wuli (uire)
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To: blam

Michael Connelly BUMP!


26 posted on 01/14/2013 10:00:17 PM PST by Lancey Howard
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To: blam

Bring on default and depression!

Keep the government totally out of any recovery attempt!

All the leaches living on credit will be wiped out and recovery will happen within a year just like it did in 1920.

If obama stickes his mulatto illegal alien nose into it the depression will last 12 years just like 1929 when Roosevwelt screwed everything up!!


27 posted on 01/14/2013 10:20:10 PM PST by dalereed
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To: FredZarguna

There is no Bank of the United States ~ Jackson won that bottle ~ recall? So, no, bankers aren’t gub’mnt employees, and their running dog lackeys are all other bankers. A federale would kick their teeth in ~ not the other way around, and we are not talking about the gub’mnt under the Chicago street thugs of course.


28 posted on 01/15/2013 5:29:48 AM PST by muawiyah
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To: muawiyah

You really can’t read, can you?


29 posted on 01/15/2013 9:33:27 AM PST by FredZarguna (In a well-regulated FReeper den, the right to create and deploy antimatter shall not be infringed.)
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To: FredZarguna
So, what federal employee is involved in the decision by the bank to cash your bonds? The law allows them a certain amount of time to verify that they are legitimate, and to go through the process of matching them up with the rates over the various periods.

Do you imagine the federal employees ~ whoever they are in this ~ which isn't clear at all ~ should CRUSH THE BANKS under their jack boot heels and make the bank do it instantly?

Seriously, are your rights to take precedence over that of the bank, or the other way around?

30 posted on 01/15/2013 9:41:46 AM PST by muawiyah
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To: lacrew

Years ago, and I think it was a legal requirement at the time, you could actually pay your debts with stamps. I vaguely remember my mom sending stamps in to partly cover our electric bill.


31 posted on 01/15/2013 9:48:08 AM PST by djf (Conservative values help the poor. Liberal values help them STAY poor!!!)
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To: muawiyah
Oh, please.

The poor, poor members of the Federal Reserve are going to find themselves CRUSHED UNDER THE JACKBOOTS of the Federal Government?

Hahahahahahahaha.

Now I know you can't read; nobody would post such absolutely melodramatic drivel if he could actually read what he just wrote.

Fed Banks receive numerous benefits at the expense of Federal taxpayers, including insurance rates on their instruments that nobody else can get, and short-term interest rates that make it nearly impossible for them to ever lose money. [Although somehow, some of them still manage to.]

They can verify the current payout on a bond instantly. I can do that on my computer at this very second with any bond I own. Perhaps you're surprised to learn that computers are actually capable of mathematical calculations, and do not exist merely so you can post idiotic piffle on web sites. If that's the case, I apologize. The online verification and calcuation has been available for about 15 years. Next time do a little research before posting nonsense.

The bank is simply floating themselves a loan at my expense because the government allows them to get away with that, among many other abuses. If you don't think that makes the symbiotic relationship between the central bank and the Federal government part of the Apparat you don't understand politics, government, or economics very well, if at all; as your silly, over-the-top defense of the Three Card Monty dealer known as the Federal Reserve proves quite well. The Fed's incestuous relationship with both the Treasury Department and the economic policy making branches of government make it a de facto player in everything our government does.

This isn't Andrew Jackson's government, and it isn't Andrew Jackson's bugaboo Bank of the United States. I only wish it were.

32 posted on 01/15/2013 10:03:28 AM PST by FredZarguna (In a well-regulated FReeper den, the right to create and deploy antimatter shall not be infringed.)
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To: Freedom4US
Pretty much all banks and institutions are not keen on doing anything financial unless one is a customer i.e. has an account. That’s not news.

Federal Reserve Banks receive special insurance rates on their instruments and special interest rates that no one else can get because they're ultimately backed by the full faith and credit of the United States. Translation: The full faith and credit of US taxpayers.

Consequently, they are obligated by law to provide services in support of the US Treasury. If they don't like it, they shouldn't be in the Federal Reserve system, and if they can't obey the law -- which was written by bankers for the benefit of bankers to begin with -- they need to be shut down.

Your conclusion is too restrictive: Banks like to screw anyone they can, including their own customers, and even including people they're obligated to service by law. That's not news, either.

33 posted on 01/15/2013 10:11:33 AM PST by FredZarguna (In a well-regulated FReeper den, the right to create and deploy antimatter shall not be infringed.)
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To: FredZarguna
Then you would have been dealing with government employees ~ but you weren't.

Give it up. If they aren't government employees, then they aren't government employees.

34 posted on 01/15/2013 10:53:35 AM PST by muawiyah
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To: muawiyah
First, I'm glad to see that you've abandoned the ridiculous arguments you advanced for why I wasn't able to liquidate a US Treasury instrument in a timely fashion at an institution required by law to do so.

Unfortunately, it's too late: I've printed and framed your putative reply and it is now in the #1 position of my FReeper Hall of Shame. Congratulations! Your post was actually dumber than the previous record holder, by someone who claimed the Earth was only 6,000 years old.

The Poor Poor Bankers of the Federal Reserve, who have nothing to do with the orgiastic spending, borrowing, bailouts and corruption of the ruling class CRUSHED (YES! CRUSHED!) under the merciless boot heal of the Federal Government over the negotiation of barely a handful of small denomination EE bonds! Hahaha! Comedy Gold. I am going to take that one to my grave as a constant source of amusement, which, like this picture http://imgur.com/gallery/fHuhw will evoke a side-splitting response whenever I need one.

Thanks!

Now, if only you'd actually read my post, for the umpteenth time, I don't say they were government employees. Good luck with your remedial reading program. And by all means keep posting this hilarious crap. Life is just too short not to be filled with good yucks, especially from sanctimonious types who don't even think they can possibly be the objects of ridicule.

35 posted on 01/15/2013 5:31:47 PM PST by FredZarguna (Which you are.)
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To: FredZarguna

i’ve turned you in to management ~ BTW, you’re the guy who raised the question about federal government employees ~ not me. When you sober up read your post.


36 posted on 01/15/2013 6:23:19 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: muawiyah
Sober yourself up. Here's the definition of running dog, and it doesn't say anything about employee: (derogatory) one who is completely obedient, unquestioning, and submissive to the government or another party.

Thanks again for one of the dumbest exchanges in the history of FR.

37 posted on 01/17/2013 2:04:28 AM PST by FredZarguna (Keep digging. It just gets funnier.)
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