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Trains carrying more oil across US amid boom
ap ^ | Dec 28, 2012 | MATTHEW BROWN and JOSH FUNK

Posted on 12/29/2012 8:51:23 AM PST by george76

Energy companies behind the oil boom on the Northern Plains are increasingly turning to an industrial-age workhorse - the locomotive - to move their crude to refineries across the U.S., as plans for new pipelines stall and existing lines can't keep up with demand.

...

The environmental fears carry an ironic twist: Oil trains are gaining popularity in part because of a shortage of pipeline capacity - a problem that has been worsened by environmental opposition to such projects as TransCanada's stalled Keystone XL pipeline. That project would carry Bakken and Canadian crude to the Gulf of Mexico. Wayde Schafer, a North Dakota spokesman for the Sierra Club, described rail as "the greater of two evils" because trains pass through cities, over waterways and through wetlands that pipelines can be built to avoid.

(Excerpt) Read more at abc-7.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Canada; Crime/Corruption; Extended News; Government; News/Current Events; US: Louisiana; US: Montana; US: Nebraska; US: North Dakota; US: South Dakota; US: Texas
KEYWORDS: bakken; buffet; burlington; burlingtonnorthern; coal; energy; gas; keystone; keystonepipeline; keystonexl; northern; oil; pipeline; pipelines; sierraclub; trains; warrenbuffet

1 posted on 12/29/2012 8:51:31 AM PST by george76
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To: george76
Apparently the "what if" argument doesn't apply to FOO (friends of obama)

What if we crush a caterpiller shuts down gazillions of dollars in good paying jobs, but what if a train capsizes and polutes acres of land or polutes the Mississippi doesn't.

2 posted on 12/29/2012 8:57:53 AM PST by knarf (I say things that are true ... I have no proof ... but they're true)
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To: george76
This is why Warren Buffet wanted Obama to kill the Keystone Pipeline. He owns Burlington Northern.
3 posted on 12/29/2012 8:58:19 AM PST by OrioleFan (Republicans believe every day is July 4th, Democrats believe every day is April 15th.)
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To: george76
Union Pacific Railroad CEO Jack Koraleski said hauling oil out of places like North Dakota will be a long-term business for railroads because trains are faster than pipelines, reliable and offer a variety of destinations.

Trains are faster than pipelines? That is a new one for me. Once the pipeline is finished lets see who is faster.

4 posted on 12/29/2012 8:59:22 AM PST by Orange1998 (DO NOT PRESS CTRL W)
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To: OrioleFan

Thanks for the reminder.


5 posted on 12/29/2012 9:04:43 AM PST by PGalt
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Comment #6 Removed by Moderator

To: Orange1998
The pipeline just sits there at zero mph while the train zips along at sixty. See, the train is faster.

The real question is which transports more oil, more cheaply and safer. And of course, more importantly, whether the CEO promotes higher taxes at Obama's direction. < /sarc>

7 posted on 12/29/2012 9:06:33 AM PST by KarlInOhio (I'm tired of being beaten like a malcontent elf so Obama can pretend to be Santa.)
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To: OrioleFan; Orange1998

Typical of the crony corruption that’s SOP for the AKSARBEN Abomination of Nature crowd, Allegedly.

https://www.google.com/#hl=en&tbo=d&sclient=psy-ab&q=Union+Pacific+Warren+Buffett+Franklin+Coverup&;


8 posted on 12/29/2012 9:08:03 AM PST by TArcher
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To: george76; Clive; exg; Alberta's Child; albertabound; AntiKev; backhoe; Byron_the_Aussie; ...
To all- please ping me to Canadian topics.

Canada Ping!

9 posted on 12/29/2012 9:12:40 AM PST by Squawk 8888 (True North- Strong Leader, Strong Dollar, Strong and Free!)
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To: KarlInOhio

I see the point but who is dumb enough to believe it.


10 posted on 12/29/2012 9:13:57 AM PST by Orange1998 (DO NOT PRESS CTRL W)
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To: TArcher

Interesting.


11 posted on 12/29/2012 9:14:53 AM PST by Orange1998 (DO NOT PRESS CTRL W)
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To: Squawk 8888

Let’s say George bush was in office and the Koch brothers owned Burlington Northern.

The media would be fighting with each other to get the scoop.


12 posted on 12/29/2012 9:15:03 AM PST by EQAndyBuzz (You can't bring something to its knees that refuses to stand on its own)
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To: OrioleFan
thank you...
13 posted on 12/29/2012 9:15:47 AM PST by Chode (American Hedonist - *DTOM* -ww- NO Pity for the LAZY)
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To: Orange1998

Can you use a pipeline 7 feet in diameter, 2 miles long, moves at 50MPH, and can go to any major refinery west of the Mississippi? That is what your average UP train can do. I work for the UP, and barring the oil companies being banned from building pipelines, we’re the second choice for moving crude. We despise buffett and his toy train set. Until we can get these pipelines built (which by the way, UP moves a lot of material and supplies to the oil patch), trains are the closest thing to a land based oil freighter.


14 posted on 12/29/2012 9:23:14 AM PST by factoryrat (We are the producers, the creators. Grow it, mine it, build it.)
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To: Orange1998

Can you use a pipeline 7 feet in diameter, 2 miles long, moves at 50MPH, and can go to any major refinery west of the Mississippi? That is what your average UP train can do. I work for the UP, and barring the oil companies being banned from building pipelines, we’re the second choice for moving crude. We despise buffett and his toy train set. Until we can get these pipelines built (which by the way, UP moves a lot of material and supplies to the oil patch), trains are the closest thing to a land based oil freighter.


15 posted on 12/29/2012 9:24:17 AM PST by factoryrat (We are the producers, the creators. Grow it, mine it, build it.)
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To: KarlInOhio
The pipeline just sits there at zero mph while the train zips along at sixty. See, the train is faster.

no doubt about it..especially when you want to get Bakken crude to, say, a refinery in Corpus Christi, Texas. You "freight train" the crude from the Dakotas to Albany, New York..you then pump it onto seagoing barges for a quick trip down the Hudson, so that you can then pump from the seagoing barge to a foreign flag tanker off of Rockaway. The foreign flag tanker probably takes three or four barges coming down from Albany to "fill it up"...then off to Corpus it goes.

This process is going on all day, every day, because of no pipeline.

Cheaper and faster?...riiiigggghhhht...

16 posted on 12/29/2012 9:25:06 AM PST by sternup
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To: george76
Ohhh Say Can You See -- wasn't ol’ Dick Cheney married to the Railroad Bidness too?

https://www.google.com/#hl=en&sugexp=les%3B&gs_rn=1&gs_ri=hp&gs_mss=Dick%20Cheney%20Railoard

Yep.

If  what John DeCamp(R) alleges about the perversion and homosexuality at the top the RailRoad pyramid is true, it's no surprise at all that Cheney has sired homosexual offspring - it's just “normal” bidness as usual in the royal RINOcracy.

https://www.google.com/#hl=en&tbo=d&sclient=psy-ab&q=Franklin+coverup

 
Eyes Wide Shut

"8-1984 - Lawrence King [Homosexual and alleged Pedophile] throws a lavish party in Dallas, Texas, after singing the National Anthem at the Republican National GOP Convention."

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&tbo=d&sclient=psy-ab&q=Lawrence+king+singing+pedophile+franklin&oq=Lawrence+king+singing+pedophile+franklin

 

http://www.franklincase.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=11&Itemid=9


17 posted on 12/29/2012 9:25:33 AM PST by TArcher
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To: Orange1998

Pipelines are certainly far better for distribution.


18 posted on 12/29/2012 9:27:00 AM PST by cripplecreek (REMEMBER THE RIVER RAISIN!)
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To: george76

19 posted on 12/29/2012 9:27:33 AM PST by ClearCase_guy (Republicans have made themselves useless, toothless, and clueless.)
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To: ClearCase_guy

I was waiting for someone to get it. Rand predicted this all the way back in 1957.


20 posted on 12/29/2012 9:31:29 AM PST by Publius ("A centralized government is a centralized evil." -- Gen. John Graham)
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To: george76

Boy, I have not seen a single word of this in the Buffalo News!

Would it be a conspiracy theory to think Warren Buffet’s ownership in the Buffalo News had any bearing on this not being covered?


21 posted on 12/29/2012 9:33:48 AM PST by Wurlitzer (Nothing says "ignorance" like Islam!)
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To: Orange1998

I’ve been working my way through John DeCamp’s “The Franklin Coverup”.

I can only stomach reading a few pages at a time. The conduct described therein is absolutely OUTRAGEOUS.


22 posted on 12/29/2012 9:34:30 AM PST by TArcher
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To: Publius
Scary, huh?

Of course, the other little cultural tidbit that comes to mind is the praise given to Mussolini: "He got the trains running on time."

We're living with fascism, and God is giving us all kinds of clues as to what is happening, and the sheeple just smile and nod and think it's all under control.

And, of course, getting everything under control is precisely what's going on.

23 posted on 12/29/2012 9:34:56 AM PST by ClearCase_guy (Republicans have made themselves useless, toothless, and clueless.)
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To: Orange1998
Once the pipeline is finished lets see who is faster.

So far, the trains are ahead in developing new capacity, and are more versatile--at least for the time being. The rail loading facilities were built because the pipelines were not. When light sweet crude is selling for a $30 discount because there is no way to move it (as it was), someone will find a way, not only to move the material, but to profit from it. They did.

The other simple advantage is that the EPA hasn't been able to ban trains yet.

24 posted on 12/29/2012 9:39:16 AM PST by Smokin' Joe (How often God must weep at humans' folly. Stand fast. God knows what He is doing)
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To: factoryrat

Good start. Now ship the product there without also shipping the train and you will begin to approach the efficiencies of pipelines.


25 posted on 12/29/2012 9:48:42 AM PST by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: Cvengr

I know, a pipeline would be ideal, but a train is the next best thing until a pipeline can be built, plus we already ship most of the supplies for building those pipelines, and oil fields, and fracking sand, and all sorts of other stuff, and have track into those regions already. Every bit helps.


26 posted on 12/29/2012 10:08:33 AM PST by factoryrat (We are the producers, the creators. Grow it, mine it, build it.)
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To: Cvengr

The big BP fuel terminal near me is supplied by pipeline with no active rail within 15 miles. That terminal in turn, fills dozens of trucks every day so they can go fill tanks at gas stations for miles around.

Rail is great for long distance single source and single destination transportation but continuously flowing fluids are not one of those things.


27 posted on 12/29/2012 10:09:07 AM PST by cripplecreek (REMEMBER THE RIVER RAISIN!)
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To: Smokin' Joe

It costs about $5/bll to ship by pipeline vs $10-$15/bll by rail car. (Railcar cost = up to 3 x pipeline cost) Oil sources, where infrastructure is insufficient, might use rail car, ...but generally the best buy is to ship to a terminal nearby, then continue the shipment by pipeline.


28 posted on 12/29/2012 10:11:04 AM PST by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: george76

Because our primitive tribal chieftain Obamugabe won’t allow a pipeline we are forced to revert to rail instead of the more efficient, lower cost oil pipeline. It is absurd to send oil by rail when it can be done by a pipeline


29 posted on 12/29/2012 10:19:29 AM PST by dennisw (The first principle is to find out who you are then you can achieve anything -- Buddhist monk)
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To: george76
This was posted yesterday:
The whole Keystome Pipeline thing was to benefit one administration mouthpiece and it isn’t Susan Rice.

Look where the oil comes from....Alberta Canada. Which states border Alberta/Saskatchewan? Idaho/Montana?North Dakota. And how do they get that oil to those refineries now....by rail. And who has the track through that part of the country all the way south to Texas where those refineries are ? Burlington Northern Santa Fe Railroad.

BNSF a wholy owned subsidiary of....Berkshire Hathaway. And who is Berkshire Hathaway....that wonderful humanitarian “the a$$hole from Omaha” Warren Buffet. Doesn’t Warrne Buffet have a special class of preferred GE stock just for him? Why yes, he does. And what is one of GE’s products? Diesel-electric locomotives. Makes Commodore Vanderbuilt look positively generous by comparison.

Warren Buffet should be public enemy #1.

25 posted on December 28, 2012 7:23:15 PM PST by Ouderkirk (Obama has turned America into an aristocracy of the unaccomplished.)

On perdogg's prediction thread here
30 posted on 12/29/2012 10:31:20 AM PST by null and void (Socialism: Equal parts dumb and evil, in a blender.)
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To: Ouderkirk; Perdogg

Got distracted and left your names off of the “To:” block for post #30.


31 posted on 12/29/2012 10:35:16 AM PST by null and void (Socialism: Equal parts dumb and evil, in a blender.)
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To: Ouderkirk; Perdogg

Got distracted and left your names off of the “To:” block for post #30.


32 posted on 12/29/2012 10:36:14 AM PST by null and void (Socialism: Equal parts dumb and evil, in a blender.)
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To: factoryrat
The CEO says North Dakota will be a long-term business for railroads because trains are faster than pipelines.

You say "we’re the second choice for moving crude".

I admire your honesty.

33 posted on 12/29/2012 10:55:48 AM PST by Orange1998 (DO NOT PRESS CTRL W)
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To: factoryrat

Full Disclosure: I work for Buffet’s Railroad.

Here is the non-logic of thinking Buffet would be mad if they built the pipeline(beyond the idea that people really think Obama cares what anyone thinks, including Buffet)...

If it is profitable to transport oil with trains now, and it is, it will still be profitable when a pipeline is built. On top of that as some have stated here, who is going to move the supplies to build the pipeline? That is right, rail roads.

Warren is going to make big bucks whether there is a pipeline or not.


34 posted on 12/29/2012 11:25:54 AM PST by BookaT
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To: Cvengr
All just ducky when you have the pipeline capacity. We don't.

The Keystone XL would have added about 100,000 Bbl/day of capacity, but BO stopped that, and the railroads have stepped up to handle that (and make a profit, too).

With what was a $30/bbl discount (meaning oil that should have brought $90 was only selling at $60), there was room for both the railroad to profit and the oil companies to make out better.

It is a question of infrastructure keeping up with growth in production, and North Dakota passed Louisiana, Oklahoma, Alaska, and California to move into the no. 2 spot as an oil producing state in the time frame all this developed.

35 posted on 12/29/2012 2:42:42 PM PST by Smokin' Joe (How often God must weep at humans' folly. Stand fast. God knows what He is doing)
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To: BookaT
If it is profitable to transport oil with trains now, and it is, it will still be profitable when a pipeline is built.

When the pipeline capacity is built enough to bring the $30 differential in price down to $6~7 differential, it will no longer be profitable to pay $15 dollars to move it by rail. It will still be profitable to pay $5 to move it by pipeline.

The only reason the price differential exists, is a bottleneck in pipeline capacity. When it is built out, just like it has in every other place in the world, it will drop the differential.

36 posted on 12/29/2012 2:57:43 PM PST by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: KarlInOhio

I think the issue is unions. The railroads are run by the unions, and the pipelines probably are not.

You can’t shorten the work day of a pipeline like you can an engineer with union rules.


37 posted on 12/29/2012 3:50:33 PM PST by LachlanMinnesota
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To: LachlanMinnesota

I would also suggest you can’t pipeline everything.

Crude isn’t just for gasoline. Plastics, other chemicals are refined. You wont be piping plastic anywhere anytime soon.

So you build a pipeline, with the railroads help and you pipe the crude to where? It isn’t like there is 1 refinery that does all the refining. You could bring it to a central point and you would still need the railroad to haul it to the end user(where are the refined products going?).

Does anyone think Buffet will be losing money(not, not making more money, but losing money) in any scenario?

Look I am for the pipeline, but I am just trying to point out the fact that Obama isn’t listening to Buffet tell him to not approve a pipeline when Buffet will make money either way. And Obama’s ego will not allow him to listen to anyone anyway.

There is enough money to go around to everyone involved in the pipeline and the railroads along with all the ancillary enterprises that support both.


38 posted on 12/29/2012 4:32:35 PM PST by BookaT
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To: BookaT

Good points. If there’s lots of oil there will be piped and railed volumes. Let the market work.


39 posted on 12/29/2012 4:43:53 PM PST by sgtyork (The secret of happiness is freedom, and the secret of freedom, courage. Thucydides)
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To: factoryrat
"We despise buffett and his toy train set."

BNSF might be the Democrat party's favorite choo-choo, but last time I checked, UP sends most of it's money to the GOP.
40 posted on 12/29/2012 9:35:35 PM PST by indthkr
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To: sternup
At this point in time it's probably the faster way and cheaper way since that oil is going nowhere without a pipeline.
At least the crude is getting moved around where it needs to be.
41 posted on 12/29/2012 10:49:51 PM PST by American Constitutionalist
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To: cripplecreek

Rail is better than someone saying NYET to pipelines.


42 posted on 12/29/2012 10:53:54 PM PST by American Constitutionalist
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To: factoryrat
Can you use a pipeline 7 feet in diameter, 2 miles long, moves at 50MPH, and can go to any major refinery west of the Mississippi?

The space between cars reduces that to about five feet. A minimum headway of about ten minutes (tight for a heavy freight train) reduces the effective speed by about two thirds. When one throws in the headway for the rest of the freight that must be accommodated on the line (especially all those empty containers going to Western ports and hoppers carrying coal) I'd cut that number at least by half. So your analogy is more representative at a five foot tube moving eight miles per hour, which isn't much different than a pipeline. Yet the place where that number really drops is in transits through urban areas, switch yards, and loading/unloading for distribution into a refinery. Hence, all other costs not taken under consideration, I would doubt that a train system could move oil as fast as a pipeline. I also wonder how many refineries have the yard capacity and unloading facilities to handle that many tank cars as fast as they might otherwise arrive.

43 posted on 12/30/2012 8:39:41 AM PST by Carry_Okie (GunWalker: Arming "a civilian national security force that's just as powerful, just as well funded")
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To: Carry_Okie

Seen a tank car lately? The current ones carry a 160,000# payload, and are way larger than five feet OD. And average system velocity (moving from source to destination) is at 21 MPH right now, for regular freight. For coal and oil shipments? Significantally faster, although I can’t say how much. The point is, until some pipelines are put down, rail is the mode of choice to move oil, which is already occuring.


44 posted on 12/31/2012 10:33:11 AM PST by factoryrat (We are the producers, the creators. Grow it, mine it, build it.)
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To: factoryrat
Seen a tank car lately?

Read a post carefully lately? The effective diameter adjustment in comparison to a pipeline was for the SPACE between cars.

Sheesh.

45 posted on 12/31/2012 1:23:55 PM PST by Carry_Okie (GunWalker: Arming "a civilian national security force that's just as powerful, just as well funded")
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