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BREAKING People (firefighters) Shot at Scene of Webster (NY) Fire
WHAM13 ^ | 12/24/12 | WHAM13

Posted on 12/24/2012 5:17:08 AM PST by Revelation 911

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To: rochester_veteran

This guy was crazy and should never have been released. In Florida, where I live, there have been a few killings over the years by nutcases who lived in remote places and have set up mantraps. However, in this case he lured the first responders into the trap.

I suspect that he was probably stirred up by the nutcase in CT. Crazy people probably read those news reports and thought, wow, cool, people will really understand my power if I blow away a few of them.

Guns make it easier for these people (and before you attack me, listen to the next part of this sentence), but they would have killed anyway and they should have been locked up and unable to get near any weapon or even any other unprotected human being.

Can commitment be abused? Of course. But only the good are dying now, and this has got to be stopped.


101 posted on 12/24/2012 12:58:53 PM PST by livius
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To: Lazamataz

Where abouts is Webster? Upstate?


102 posted on 12/24/2012 1:02:01 PM PST by ContraryMary (Obama -- Inept and Out of His Depth)
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To: Drill Thrawl

http://www.democratandchronicle.com/assets/pdf/A21985601224.PDF

the perp killed his grandmother 30 years ago with a hammer

Sounds like instead of gun control - we need court control


103 posted on 12/24/2012 1:07:51 PM PST by Revelation 911 (hump scratching n'er do well.....all strung out on chicken wings and venison jerky)
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To: Lawdoc
What is wrong with people?

Obama's trickle-down lawlessness is spreading. He's an agitator and organizer, and it's working.

-PJ

104 posted on 12/24/2012 1:17:30 PM PST by Political Junkie Too (If you are the Posterity of We the People, then you are a Natural Born Citizen.)
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To: ContraryMary

It is.


105 posted on 12/24/2012 1:58:12 PM PST by Lazamataz (LAZ'S LAW: As an argument with liberals goes on, the probability of being called racist approaches 1)
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To: livius
The Webster Police Chief said it loud and clear....

THE SYSTEM IS WRONG !! Spengler should have never been released.

106 posted on 12/24/2012 2:55:12 PM PST by Sacajaweau
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To: ContraryMary
Webster is bounded on the north by Lake Ontario and on the west by Irondequoit Bay and about 6 miles east of the Genesee River which runs southerly through Rochester NY. the home of Kodak and Bausch & Lomb.

The site of the incident itself was a few hundred feet east of the Bay.

107 posted on 12/24/2012 3:04:53 PM PST by Sacajaweau
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To: Sacajaweau

I lived in CA in the 1970 s during the heyday of deinstitutionalization, when they released a man who pleaded with them to let him stay in, because he said he felt “like a puppy on the freeway” when he was outside of that environment. They kicked him out, and within a matter of weeks he had killed a teenage girl who was walking along the road and then went on to kill and eat his grandmother.

Unfortunately, this made no change in the CA mental health plan, and Ronald Reagan ( as Governor) even came out and said that the mentally ill were really just fine and could get jobs such as ...playground monitors!

People in authority are completely unrealistic about the mentally ill.


108 posted on 12/24/2012 3:11:08 PM PST by livius
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To: wita

“Difficult as it may be, the decision to protect firearms from illegal and unconstitutional confiscation must be a part of firearms training. It must be part of you, it cannot rationally be made as those arrive at your door to take your firearms from you.
It must also be widely known by any and all that any efforts by anyone in government do be involved in any confiscation scheme, will be met by deadly force. So spread the word it ain’t a secret. If you are looking for a ticket to oblivion, willingly give up your guns to anyone other than the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.”

From “Unintended Consequences” (John Ross), page 151:


“Dad, while you were taking pictures after we had lunch, Mr. Mann was telling me about what happened to him during the war.” Henry and his father were down in the workshop, where Henry was cleaning his guns. Walter Bowman looked up at his son.

“Hm.” Walter had never heard of Irwin Mann talking about that part of his past.

“He was telling me about how the police came and took him and his wife away, and he never saw her or any of his family again. He said that Hitler killed six million Jews like him, and would have killed all of them if the Americans hadn’t fought against the Germans and beat them.”

“That’s probably true.”

“He talked about how none of them had any way to fight back. He said first the police took away the guns that were like the ones the soldiers used, then they took away ALL their guns. He said he hoped I was always a good shot with as many kinds of guns as possible, in case the same thing ever happened here.” Henry looked very upset. “Dad, I love shooting, but I don’t want to kill anyone. Could something like what happened in Germany ever happen here?” he asked.

Walter Bowman, the history teacher, looked his son in the eye. Want to take this question for me, Uncle Cam? he said silently. Finally he answered.

“It probably won’t happen here,” he said, and mentally added the word again. “I certainly pray that it doesn’t. We have a nation with the kind of freedoms that people in most other countries can only dream of. But to answer your question accurately, yes, it could happen here.” And it killed your uncle.

“There are always men who want more and more power, and history has shown us that these kind of men will take all they can from the people they control. Sometimes they are finally stopped when the people fight back. Sometimes the people don’t fight back, and they slowly lose their freedoms until it’s too late.



109 posted on 12/24/2012 3:23:53 PM PST by Road Glide
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To: livius

I keep reading about Hinckley, the nut that shot Reagan. He goes home TO DC (I think) for visits...no supervision. If you don’t think he’s thinking “evil thoughts” and the pleasure he got from his shoot, then you’re stuck on stupid. Our system is totally nuts !!


110 posted on 12/24/2012 3:26:37 PM PST by Sacajaweau
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To: ContraryMary

Just east of Rochester. I am a 22 year Volunteer Firefighter, one of these Brothers works to help us pump out Basements after Lee last year with the West Webster Pierce Pumper...we could do a basement in 17 minutes...now he and our other brother are gone. This is a horrifying tragedy of the first order, we now have to worry about sniper fire when responding....all we try to do is mitigate incidents and come home safe...


111 posted on 12/24/2012 5:05:29 PM PST by Shady (Libya shows us how Americans rate...)
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To: wita

Amen. It is my belief that all men of good citizenship and character must know how to safely and effectively operate a firearm. The greatness of America used to be that we need not own one, but be ready to use one if needed. I do, I do not own a firearm but I am a hell of a shot.


112 posted on 12/24/2012 5:11:51 PM PST by Shady (Libya shows us how Americans rate...)
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To: Revelation 911

Organized Crime insurance scam / body disposal bump for later...


113 posted on 12/24/2012 5:17:10 PM PST by indthkr
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To: DTogo

both.


114 posted on 12/24/2012 6:21:34 PM PST by Secret Agent Man (I can neither confirm or deny that; even if I could, I couldn't - it's classified.)
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To: Sacajaweau

I completely agree. The system is utterly nuts, and good, decent people are paying for it with their lives.


115 posted on 12/24/2012 6:53:03 PM PST by livius
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To: FlingWingFlyer

Agree ....


116 posted on 12/24/2012 8:10:29 PM PST by Squantos ( Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everyone you meet ...)
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To: Nepeta

Yes, Webster is a nice “bedroom” community to the city of Rochester. ( No mall or buses) Home of Xerox Manufacturing, on the eastern side.

Lake Road has some of the biggest lakefront homes and some summer homes that have been converted to year around homes in that small strip area at the end of the bay.


117 posted on 12/24/2012 8:49:38 PM PST by 3D-JOY (If there were no United States Armed Forces there would be no United States of America)
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To: rochester_veteran

You really make me want a hamburger at Don and Bob’s!

Maybe a white hot dog at Vic and Irv’s?


118 posted on 12/24/2012 8:53:04 PM PST by 3D-JOY (If there were no United States Armed Forces there would be no United States of America)
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To: tbpiper

This is a special, significant Christmas. What I think you are seeing is Satan throwing a fit because his time is short. Jesus is comming back and sooner than many of us think. If you haven’t done it yet, give Him your heart. Let Him fix it like no one else can.

AMEN. I also feel like there is a significant amount of satanic activity happening lately because Satan understands Jesus will put at end to all of this soon.


119 posted on 12/24/2012 9:02:46 PM PST by Wisconsinlady (The only thing to stop a bad person with a gun, is a good person with a gun.)
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To: rochester_veteran

He murdered her in 1980.

How evil and depraved must one be to murder their own grandmother? She was 92 and defenseless!

Scumbag. There is a place in hell for evil monsters like that.


120 posted on 12/24/2012 9:40:20 PM PST by POWERSBOOTHEFAN (Causing trouble since 1976)
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To: Eleutheria5

yep! a real firefight!!


121 posted on 12/24/2012 10:05:21 PM PST by BrianE ("Dead at 25 buried at 65 the average American" - Benjamin Franklin 1776)
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To: stonehouse01

You have them.


122 posted on 12/24/2012 10:22:55 PM PST by Lexinom
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To: indthkr

perp is dead - self inflicted shot - hope he hit the floor of hell as to leave a mark….looks like he killed his sis too - man was in his late 60’s - soundslike a botched copicide


123 posted on 12/25/2012 2:00:57 AM PST by Revelation 911 (hump scratching n'er do well.....all strung out on chicken wings and venison jerky)
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To: 3D-JOY

Don and Bobs - best burger in town


124 posted on 12/25/2012 2:02:06 AM PST by Revelation 911 (hump scratching n'er do well.....all strung out on chicken wings and venison jerky)
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To: Shady

hi Shady - im in roch too - west side = our neighbors boys is a young firefighter -


125 posted on 12/25/2012 2:03:51 AM PST by Revelation 911 (hump scratching n'er do well.....all strung out on chicken wings and venison jerky)
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To: stonehouse01

Prayers up for your daughter!


126 posted on 12/25/2012 5:53:35 AM PST by Smokin' Joe (How often God must weep at humans' folly. Stand fast. God knows what He is doing)
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To: Smokin' Joe; All

Thank you - she was discharged yesterday and is doing better!

Pertaining to the topic of this thread - my daughter and her new husband (as of June) live and own land in rural Otsego County and they own firearms for hunting, and I am actually relieved for them and for us in case lawlessness hits we have a place to go. She is expecting in early June, so the fact that they own and know how to use their hunting rifles makes me feel more secure for the new grandchild when s/he arrives.

They are starting a diary operation, we are praying for their success- thoughts anyone on the milk regulation issues - the milk subsidies expire soon?

5 new calfs born in the last three weeks - 3 female, 2 male.

I grew up about 2 hours south of Rochester - have a nephew at U of R, so I am feeling this tragedy as it hits relatively close to home.


127 posted on 12/25/2012 6:07:46 AM PST by stonehouse01 (Equal rights for unborn women)
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To: stonehouse01
When I lived in Virginia, the Feds came through with some rule about paving the barns...The Mennonites in the region started making cheese instead of selling milk. (Excellent cheese, I might add). It might be one of those things which could lead to a major business. Canned cheese and butter are somewhat popular items with preppers, too (niche market).

Whatever they decide, I wish them prosperity.

Merry Christmas to you and yours!

128 posted on 12/25/2012 6:24:38 AM PST by Smokin' Joe (How often God must weep at humans' folly. Stand fast. God knows what He is doing)
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To: 3D-JOY
You really make me want a hamburger at Don and Bob’s!

Maybe a white hot dog at Vic and Irv’s?

Yuppers, both Don and Bob's and Vic an Irv's are iconic burger and hot dog joints! Here's an old photo of Don and Bob's:


129 posted on 12/25/2012 6:45:11 AM PST by rochester_veteran ( http://RochesterConservative.com/forums)
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To: Jim Noble

Why would you make such a comment? The incidents of the Amish doing these sorts of things are actually pretty low. Its normally young to middle aged white guys.


130 posted on 12/25/2012 7:46:35 AM PST by bigdaddy45
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To: rochester_veteran

Now you want me to go and get a frozen custard too?

I wonder if I was in the picture? We had cars like that, pre war I think.


131 posted on 12/25/2012 9:36:30 AM PST by 3D-JOY (If there were no United States Armed Forces there would be no United States of America)
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To: Revelation 911
From Rachel Barnhart's Facebook page:

Webster presser this morning: Spengler was armed with a Smith & Wesson, .12 gauge shotgun, and Bushmaster .223 rifle. He left a suicide note that read: "I still have to see how much of the neighborhood I can burn down and do what I like doing best - killing people."

What an evil man!

132 posted on 12/25/2012 9:37:18 AM PST by rochester_veteran ( http://RochesterConservative.com/forums)
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To: 3D-JOY
Now you want me to go and get a frozen custard too?

Yeah, you could, but you can also go next door, to Vic and Irv's for a charbroiled "ground round" as well as a custard:


133 posted on 12/25/2012 9:43:40 AM PST by rochester_veteran ( http://RochesterConservative.com/forums)
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To: 3D-JOY
Recent photo of Marge's Lakeside Inn, across Lake Rd. from Vic & Irv and Don and Bob:

BTW, that's NOT me in the photo, just found one via google search!

134 posted on 12/25/2012 10:51:09 AM PST by rochester_veteran ( http://RochesterConservative.com/forums)
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To: Revelation 911

thanks for the update


135 posted on 12/25/2012 11:52:46 AM PST by GeronL (http://asspos.blogspot.com)
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To: rochester_veteran

all of which were illegal for him to own as he was a convicted muderer


136 posted on 12/25/2012 4:44:12 PM PST by Revelation 911 (hump scratching n'er do well.....all strung out on chicken wings and venison jerky)
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To: rochester_veteran

I seem to remember that Vic and Irv’s had the best onion rings in town!

The Don and Bob’s that opened on Monroe Avenue in Brighton was just as good on the food level, but the “order calling” atmosphere of the lake store could not be equaled.


137 posted on 12/25/2012 7:24:58 PM PST by 3D-JOY (If there were no United States Armed Forces there would be no United States of America)
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To: rochester_veteran

Just got to see the full picture! You sure that is not you with the brace on your leg? LOL


138 posted on 12/25/2012 7:27:32 PM PST by 3D-JOY (If there were no United States Armed Forces there would be no United States of America)
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To: 3D-JOY
I seem to remember that Vic and Irv’s had the best onion rings in town!

The Don and Bob’s that opened on Monroe Avenue in Brighton was just as good on the food level, but the “order calling” atmosphere of the lake store could not be equaled.

Remember that Vic and Irv's served up "Texas Hots", natural casing hot dogs split down the middle and grilled?

That Don and Bob's on Monroe Ave. is closed but there's another place, Don's Original, also on Monroe, that one of the son's opened up that's good with charbroiled ground rounds.

139 posted on 12/26/2012 6:28:12 AM PST by rochester_veteran ( http://RochesterConservative.com/forums)
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To: rochester_veteran

Brothers Don and Bob Bato must be gone by now. I had the twin boys Donny and Bobby in the Brighton school summer playground program. I think they lived in the city but Mother walked them over to the school mornings. 1956 or 1957...How time flies!

I have not been able to get much updated information on this story. Just the person and Firemen. One was so young I bet it was a family or Boy Scout connection.

That was an all-volunteer fire department and when the siren went off all the local businessmen ran to the firehouse or drove to the scene.

I have heard from one friend that the West Webster area is in shock and just beginning to organize to help the families. Now that I know it was closed to the outlet, from Bay road, I realize how many people I know from that area. I will have to search for more information.


140 posted on 12/26/2012 7:42:08 AM PST by 3D-JOY (If there were no United States Armed Forces there would be no United States of America)
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To: rochester_veteran

I forgot: Brighton was the original home of Wegman’s. It has now opened as far south as Fairfax, Virginia and when I can get there I bring those Zweigles natural casing hots, both red and white, back to Florida. After they begin to pop open we always cut them down the middle and turned them down to finish cooking...memories, they make life and me RICH!

( got to go get the mustard and relish for the white ones too! I always skipped the chopped onions...)


141 posted on 12/26/2012 7:49:19 AM PST by 3D-JOY (If there were no United States Armed Forces there would be no United States of America)
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To: 3D-JOY
Update from the wounded firefighters:

Statement from Joseph Hofstetter and Theodore Scardino, Webster firefighters injured in Monday’s incident

December 26, 2012

We wish to thank the community – and the nation – for the heartwarming response to Monday’s tragic incident. We deeply appreciate your compassion and support as we focus on recovering from our physical wounds. We are humbled and a bit overwhelmed by the outpouring of well wishes for us and our families. We are in good hands and want everyone to know that even though we are able to accept only close family visitors, we are so very grateful for your prayers.

Like so many others, our thoughts and prayers are with the families of Michael Chiapperini and Tomasz Kaczowka, and with those who lost their homes. Please consider directing any acts of kindness toward others.

They've been upgraded from "guarded" to "satisfactory" status.
142 posted on 12/26/2012 10:28:21 AM PST by rochester_veteran ( http://RochesterConservative.com/forums)
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To: 3D-JOY
Report from late night news from yesterday (12/25/2012):

Human Remains Found At Webster Home

13WHAM News

Webster, N.Y. - Webster Police say human remains have been found, and they are believed to be that of William Spengler's sister, Cheryl.

Webster Police Chief Gerald Pickering made the announcement Tuesday afternoon at a press conference.

Pickering says the remains were found at the home address of 191 Lake Road in Webster. The chief also says a medical examiner needs to confirm the identity and determine whether the victim was dead before the raging fire. Police say Spengler was armed with a large number of rounds and was "equipped to go to war" and kill innocent people.

Police at this time are following up on leads to determine where Spengler got his weapon.

Chief Gerald Pickering asks that if you have any information, to call 911.


143 posted on 12/26/2012 10:42:35 AM PST by rochester_veteran ( http://RochesterConservative.com/forums)
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To: 3D-JOY
Brothers Don and Bob Bato must be gone by now. I had the twin boys Donny and Bobby in the Brighton school summer playground program. I think they lived in the city but Mother walked them over to the school mornings. 1956 or 1957...How time flies!

Close, but their actual last name is Barbato and the restaurants are still going, as Don's Original, thanks to Terry Klee!

Don's Original History

144 posted on 12/26/2012 11:11:34 AM PST by rochester_veteran ( http://RochesterConservative.com/forums)
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To: 3D-JOY
Here's an airiel view of the houses that burnt down:


145 posted on 12/27/2012 6:50:59 AM PST by rochester_veteran ( http://RochesterConservative.com/forums)
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To: rochester_veteran

Thanks for the continuing information...sad as it is!

It no longer is making the news here in Virginia.

This was one sick guy. I wonder how he managed for the years since he completed his prison term...something must have set him off again.


146 posted on 12/27/2012 8:06:46 PM PST by 3D-JOY (If there were no United States Armed Forces there would be no United States of America)
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To: 3D-JOY
This was one sick guy. I wonder how he managed for the years since he completed his prison term...something must have set him off again.

Spengler's mother died a couple of months ago and she left her money to the West Webster Fireman's Association:

Arline G. Spengler Obituary

Spengler, Arline G.

Webster: Sunday, Oct. 7, 2012, age 91. Predeceased by her husband, William. She leaves her daughter, Cheryl Spengler; son, William Jr.; nieces, nephews, cousins and many friends.

Services are private at the convenience of the family. Interment at Webster Union Cemetery. Memorials may be directed to West Webster Firemen's Association (Ambulance Fund).

Willard H. Scott Funeral Home

Spengler lured firefighters by setting his car and house on fire, while he layed in ambush.

BTW, sounds like he got his guns via a neighbor and her daughter:

Ex-Neighbor Helped Shooter Get Guns: Report

ROCHESTER NEWSPAPER SAYS AT LEAST ONE ARREST EXPECTED SOON

By John Johnson, Newser Staff

(NEWSER) – The man who killed two firefighters in an ambush was a convicted murderer, so how did he get the arsenal to pull off his plan? The Democrat and Chronicle of Rochester may have the answer: A woman who used to be his neighbor and her daughter helped Spengler get the guns, though it's not clear when. Spengler apparently said so in his note to police, sources tell the newspaper. Expect one or both women to be arrested soon. More coverage here, including autopsy results showing Spengler killed himself and was not shot by police.


147 posted on 12/28/2012 6:45:24 AM PST by rochester_veteran ( http://RochesterConservative.com/forums)
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To: 3D-JOY
From:
Rachel Barnhart:

U.S. Attorney says Dawn Nguyen was with William Spengler in June 1010 when she purchased a Bushmaster .223 and Mossberg .12 gauge shotgun at Gander Mountain in Henrietta. She's charged with lying to the store, saying she would own the guns. She faces both state and federal charges of falsifying records. Could face more charges. Federal conviction carries maximum of 10 years, $250k fine. Nguyen is a former neighbor of Spengler.


148 posted on 12/28/2012 1:36:32 PM PST by rochester_veteran ( http://RochesterConservative.com/forums)
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To: rochester_veteran

I believe that Rachel meant to post, “June 2010”.


149 posted on 12/28/2012 1:39:04 PM PST by rochester_veteran ( http://RochesterConservative.com/forums)
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To: 3D-JOY
Update on fallen firefighter's funerals from Rachel Barnhart:

Mourners line up outside Webster Schroeder High School for calling hours. Heartwarming and sad. (Photo credit: Aaron Baker)


150 posted on 12/29/2012 11:06:52 AM PST by rochester_veteran ( http://RochesterConservative.com/forums)
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