Posted on 11/24/2012 1:04:13 PM PST by 2ndDivisionVet
CINCINNATI — One of Cincinnati’s largest employers fired approximately 150 employees Wednesday for failing to get a required flu shot.
TriHealth offered all of its 10,800 employees free flu shots. Employees had a month to get the flu shot. The deadline was Nov. 16. Employees who did not get the shot were terminated Wednesday, a company spokesperson said...
(Excerpt) Read more at wlwt.com ...
Drug reps bearing goodies for medical staff = Santa Claus.
Like they give a rat's *ss...they were injected; now they are dead. That is what people in New England are taking away from the news; like it or not.
All microorganisms mutate. It's a process called "evolution", which has been known about for hundreds of years. The goal of vaccination is to make enough people immune so that the virus doesn't spread and doesn't have a chance to spread before it mutates so much that the vaccine is ineffective. Then, a new vaccine must be developed... although that's not quite true, since new vaccines are *always* being developed. Measles has been almost eradicated in the US, but that's an achievement that can be easily wiped out through the efforts of anti-vaxers. Thanks to anti-vaxers, we now have pockets of the country where pertussis is epidemic and babies are dying. Try watching a youtube video of children with pertussis--it's painful. Watching those children struggling to breathe makes my own chest hurt. We're also just becoming aware that the acellular pertussis vaccine doesn't provoke permanent immunity. The medical community is studying this issue; new recommendations to receive the DTaP during pregnancy or if you are going to be around a pregnant woman or newborn are a result of the new information about the vaccine.
We got very lucky with smallpox. It’s amazing that since we wiped out smallpox with vaccination (and not even 100% vax rates either) we have been not only unable to do the same with *other* disease like measles but are falling behind the evolutionary curve with ‘ordinary’ things like pertussis.
We weren't "lucky" with smallpox. Several factors led to the eradication of smallpox. For one thing, both smallpox viruses were DNA, not RNA viruses. That means their genomes do not mutate as rapidly as RNA virus genomes. For another, only humans could become infected with smallpox. So the smallpox viruses had no animal reservoir in which to replicate when they were denied their human hosts. People exposed to smallpox were not infectious prior to showing symptoms, so it was easier for uninfected people to avoid them, thereby avoiding disease. And the governments of every country in the world were dedicated to the goal of wiping out smallpox. When the last outbreak occurred in the 1970s, public health officials descended on the city where the outbreak occurred and conducted massive vaccination campaigns, which successfully prevented the outbreak from spreading.
We're close to eradicating some other diseases. Measles and polio are almost gone, although the efforts by anti-vaxers could change that. Dracunculiasis has almost been eliminated; although it's not a microbial disease and not amenable to vaccination campaigns, that is still a big public health success.
I didn’t hear the ‘better off having the disease’ from an anti vax website. I actually heard it from a former coworker (A PhD/MD) who interned at a prestigious agency in Atlanta (not cdc btw, even more prestigious than that). Vaccine immunity wears off much faster than disease immunity. Known fact. It’s why they’re having to re-vax huge segments of the population with tetanus. And teens with the chickenpox vaccine. Said former coworker burst my vaccine trust bubble in a big way. He was VERY much against the HepB mandate for neonates. His fear was resistant strains. Taiwan has been vaxing for 20+ years as a standard newborn treatment. Already 25% of the HepB infections there are ‘vaccine resistant’ strains. That number was ~7% when they started the program. Like Jeff Goldblum said, ‘life happens’.
Oh, my. An organization "more prestigious than the cdc" but which is nameless? Would that be the NIH? NAIAD? WHO? FDA? PHS? Do you expect me to be impressed by that? Did your friend specifically say that it's better to get the disease than to get a vaccine, or was that a message you interpreted from his description of waning immunity? I find it hard to believe that anyone working in public health would actually advocate against vaccines.
It's been known for a long time that vaccine induced immunity wanes and that periodic boosters are needed. That does not equate to people being better off by having the disease. What it means is that people need to be more diligent about getting their boosters. Tetanus vaccine (since you mentioned it) has always been recommended every 10 years, and also in situations where the likelihood of exposure is high (for instance, if a rusty nail pierces your foot). Would you seriously rather get tetanus than get a shot every ten years? I know *I'd* rather have the shot.
I should mention that exposure to natural disease acts as a booster to vaccines. For example, if you are vaccinated against polio, and are exposed to someone with polio, you won't get sick, but your body will mount an immune response similar to the way you initially responded to the vaccine. Much of the reason we need boosters now is because the vaccination campaigns have so successfully eradicated these diseases that we no longer get that periodic exposure to act as a booster. I've never seen anyone with measles or polio; I suspect that most people my age or younger haven't (and I'm a grandmother).
What your story of hep B occurrance in Taiwan left out is the total number of hep B cases compared between pre-vac and post-vac periods. That bit of information is crucial in assessing whether the vaccine is having a beneficial effect on the population. Let's say, for example, that the rate of hep B was 10% prior to the vaccination campaign, and 7% of those cases (or 0.7 out of every 10 hep B patients) were with the "resistant" strain. And then after the vaccination campaign started, the rate of hep B dropped to 3%, of which 25% (0.75 patients out of every 3 with the disease) have the resistant strain. That still means that the vaccine protected 7 patients who would have become ill without it. And the fact that there is a strain resistant to the vaccine only means that researchers are busy developing a vaccine for that strain, which will eventually be included with the regular hep B vaccine.
I should mention that full-blown disease doesn't always induce immunity, or the immunity is not permanent.
In fact, it is NOT available. To anyone. By any means. The 36000 number was NOT made available via ANY information in anything databased in pubmed. You can get the number, 36000. Nothing more. No background information. No raw data, no epidemiological methodology information. Nothing.
Absolutely nothing.
People who HAVE asked are told ‘national security’ prohibits their getting ahold of this information.
That number, 36000, was pulled out with the rest of her toe jam.
In short, the criteria used for ‘flu death’ is a matter of ‘national security’ and no one is able to discern exactly what the criteria was. So you just have to trust them. In spite of the fact that the head of the CDC when that ‘study’ was done is now the head of Mercks vaccine division.
Um. yeah.
Oy.
The methodology of disease reporting to the CDC can be found in the links posted on this page. I don't know what more you want--access to every single phone/email/internet report of flu cases? And just because the database containing those individual reports isn't generally available to the public, but only to researchers, means that some "national security" issues are involved? What, exactly, is the "national security" interest in misrepresenting the number of deaths from infectious disease? I'm really curious to know that.
While you seem completely accepting of the reported number of WNV cases, you're extremely suspicious of the reported number of flu cases--even though the cases are reported through the exact same surveillance network to the exact same people using the exact same methodology. What logical, verifiable reason can you provide for that discrepancy?
Also, I'm not concerned about the fact that a former CDC employee went on to work for Merck. At my level of education, people do tend to move to better opportunities, if that's what they want out of their career. As long as he did not violate any ethics laws (which are taught to all federal employees at least annually), I don't see a problem with him moving from federal to private employment. I also do not know what "study" you were referring to in that paragraph. With thousands of studies underway at any given time, you can't just refer to a "study" and expect anyone to know what you're talking about without providing more information (like subject of study, links to the published report, links to the filed protocol, etc.).
Do you understand that there is a HUGE difference between a vaccine manufactured according to FDA approved protocols in a strictly regulated factory, and a non-FDA approved steroid reformulation made in a facility that has already had many safety citations?
We're talking apples and bricks, here. The issue with the steroids isn't even comparable to vaccine use.
Nobody cares...that doesn't fit into a news soundbite anyway. People on the ground here in NE understand one thing...these folks were given a shot; now they are dead. Good luck setting them straight...
The news accounts have been pretty descriptive of the problem. I think that most people are intelligent enough to be able to discern the difference between this situation and routine vaccinations.
That's one of the reasons I don't do healthcare.
The first occasion was in 1957, when somebody decided to take my tonsils out at the age of 5. They used ether as anesthetic. My father took one whiff of me when I came out of surgery and crumpled to the floor.
The second and last occasion was 8/2/12, when I took a fall off a roof and fractured 4 ribs in 7 places. That is a continuing nightmare.
The only thing they did was jack me up on painkillers and muscle relaxants and send me home. I don't think I'm going to do any more healthcare.
One of these days I might see an allergist and get tested to see if it can be determined to what I’m so allergic. But then it only happens at most a perhaps three times a year and although it pretty much renders me useless while I’m having an attack, fortunately it goes away as quickly as it comes. It does puzzle me however as I can’t connect it to anything in particular – while it usually hits me in late fall through the winter, I’ve had attacks at other times of the year as well. When the pollen counts are very high, I might sneeze a bit but nothing like what I described. I’m not allergic to cats or dogs either. As I mentioned, when I had my last attack my boss actually told me to go home for the rest of the day and when I came in the next morning perfectly fine, she was amazed.
Anyway, thanks for trying to help educate people. I see so much misinformation in these threads that sometimes, I just want to throw my hands up in despair. But then I think, if no one tries to whittle away at the mountains of misinformation, then the forces of quackery win. So I keep plugging away, trying to educate people.
Thank you. But I’m just a “lay” person with a lifelong interest in science. You, as someone with the education, the PhD and actual experience in the field, do a much better job in trying to counter the misinformation and promotion of quackery. It’s too bad that it falls on so many deaf ears.
The first occasion was in 1957, when somebody decided to take my tonsils out at the age of 5. They used ether as anesthetic. My father took one whiff of me when I came out of surgery and crumpled to the floor.
The second and last occasion was 8/2/12, when I took a fall off a roof and fractured 4 ribs in 7 places. That is a continuing nightmare.
The only thing they did was jack me up on painkillers and muscle relaxants and send me home. I don't think I'm going to do any more healthcare.
It may not be pleasant to be in need of medical attention, but the fact is that the medical profession is completely necessary in some circumstances. What will you do if you have a stroke, aneurism, heart attack, or some other medical emergency? What if you are critically injured in a car accident? If you are really serious about not wanting any more medical attention, do you carry a card with you specifying that under no circumstances are you to receive treatment?
Personally, I detest having to receive medical care. It's not fun--in fact it's downright unpleasant. However, I'm still alive because of medical care. Surely, a bit of discomfort is worth staying alive and healthy for a few more decades. It is to me, anyway.
If by stopping the illness, you mean stopping the manifestation of symptoms from the infection, that is correct.
and even when those who are vaccinated are exposed to the disease, they will either not be contagious at all or will be so for a much shorter time and generally with a milder form of the disease.
That is conventional myth. A vaccination only increases immunity in the recipient. It does NOT create some magic barrier that prevents the virus from entering a host or likewise prevent the virus from being transferred from host to host.
If you believe otherwise, then I guess you believe it's not necessary for health care workers to practice hand hygiene, since once they're vaccinated they no longer are contagious. Is that your contention?
If you mean to say and believe that the flu vaccine only prevents symptoms, no - that’s not correct. Most vaccinations, the flu vaccination for example, gives the person immunity so they do not “catch”, i.e. become infected with the virus even when they are exposed to it. If the flu virus enters the vaccinated person’s body, the antibodies in the vaccinated person’s body that were created/stimulated by the vaccine kills the live virus and that’s why the vaccinated person does not get sick and therefore does not manifest symptoms and therefore does not transmit the virus. If they do not get sick, they are not shedding live virus that can infect other people. You are completely incorrect that the flu vaccine merely prevents flu symptoms.
That is conventional myth. A vaccination only increases immunity in the recipient. It does NOT create some magic barrier that prevents the virus from entering a host or likewise prevent the virus from being transferred from host to host.
Flu viruses and many other viruses are spread mainly by droplets made when infected people cough or sneeze, wipe their runny noses or eyes or even talk because being sick, they are shedding live virus through mucus secretions. These droplets from infected people land in the mouths or noses of people who are nearby. It is true that the flu and other viruses can also be spread by touching a surface or object that has live flu virus on it and then touching their own mouth, eyes or possibly their nose but this is actually not the main and most common vector for spreading the disease because viruses typically lives for a relatively short period of time outside the body (anywhere from a few minutes up to, under the right conditions, on some types of surfaces and in environments with warm temperatures and high humidity, several hours), so that does not make frequent hand washing unnecessary or a waste of time.
So in a way you are correct that a vaccinated person “can” spread the flu by touching a surface that has live flu virus on it and then immediately touching another surface that an unvaccinated person immediately touches and in turn touches their mouth, nose or eyes (mucus membranes), but you are not correct in your assumption of what’s really happening. In that case the vaccinated person is transmitting flu, not likely from any live virus in their own body but from an infected person to a non-vaccinated person via a surface with virus on it. But again this is, contrary to what many believe not the most common why to catch the flu. You are much more likely to catch the flu by being close to someone who is actually infected (sick) when they sneeze or cough or shake your hand after wiping their nose or sneezing in their hands. While not impossible, it is very unlikely to catch the flu from someone who has been vaccinated, assuming that the vaccination worked (and vaccinations are not always 100% effective in all people), or that the vaccinated person isn’t exposed to the flu during the two weeks or so that it takes for immunity to build or that they’ve contracted some virus that that year’s flu shot does not cover or from a common cold virus. It is theoretically possible that a vaccinated person could have live flu virus living in their nasal passages for a very short period of time and if they sneeze, say because of an allergy or from dust for example, they “could” spread that live virus to another person but again, this is unlikely and would be very rare and that would not be because the vaccinated person is “infected”.
If you believe otherwise, then I guess you believe it's not necessary for health care workers to practice hand hygiene, since once they're vaccinated they no longer are contagious. Is that your contention?
No. Not at all. In a hospital setting, with doctors, nurses and other health care workers going from one patient to the next, even if vaccinated, they would and definitely should practice “hand hygiene” i.e. frequent hand washing and or the use of hand sanitizers because in that setting the hand to hand transmission of live virus is more likely not to mention preventing the spread of a plethora of bacteria. But that’s not because the vaccinated person is “contagious”. Frequent hand washing is a good idea for many reasons for everyone, at all times of the year, especially when in public places, and not just during flu season and not just to prevent the spread of flu and colds but diseases like Hanta Virus or the spread of E-Coli bacteria for instance.
But simply put; the more people who are vaccinated for the flu or for that matter measles, chicken pox, mumps, polio, etc., the fewer the number of unvaccinated people get sick because the vector for transmitting the disease is greatly decreased, i.e. herd immunity. Conversely the fewer people who are vaccinated, the greater the disease vector and the greater number of unvaccinated people get sick. There have been pockets where measles and chicken pox have been on the rise and not coincidentally in areas were fewer parents had their children immunized. Small pox has been eradicated due to vaccinations but unlike flu, it is a DNA virus and doesn’t mutate like RNA viruses like the flu, which is why a there is a new vaccine every year. Polio is still found in 3rd world countries because of the lack of immunization, but you don’t hear of cases of Polio here in the US due to mandatory vaccination programs.
The first occasion was in 1957, when somebody decided to take my tonsils out at the age of 5. They used ether as anesthetic. My father took one whiff of me when I came out of surgery and crumpled to the floor.
You should know that surgical anesthesia has come a long way since 1957 when ether was still widely used. I somewhat doubt your dad crumpled to the floor because of any ether still in your body, because first of all if that were the case, all the doctors and nurses would have crumpled to the floor as well and secondly, if the dose of ether was that high you most likely wouldn’t be alive today to tell the tale. While you may not like hearing this, it is probably more likely that your dad simply fainted. That’s not to say your dad wasn’t a manly man but sometimes dads get very emotional about their kids – the stress of seeing you come out of surgery might have been too much for him.
When I had my tonsils out when I was 18 years old, I had to have blood drawn the day before the surgery and there was a big burly guy next to me also having blood drawn – he passed out while I on the other hand actually watched the nurse put the needle in my vein just because I wanted to see how blood was drawn. The nurse was amazed that a supposedly whimpy teenage girl watched while a big burly construction worker passed out even before the needle went into his arm.
I would also mention that there was a time when tonsillectomies were performed without much good reason, but that severely infected tonsils can lead to serious complications like septicemia. I my case, my tonsils should have come out years earlier but at the time doctors were reluctant to have them taken out. By the time my parents finally took me to an ear, nose and throat specialist because of my constant sore throat and numerous infections, he said, “You need to have them taken out and the sooner the better, as in like yesterday”. I had the surgery two days later. And after I had my tonsils out, I stopped getting sick all the time – the constant and untreated infection had worn down my immune system to the point that it couldn’t fight off any infection.
The second and last occasion was 8/2/12, when I took a fall off a roof and fractured 4 ribs in 7 places. That is a continuing nightmare. The only thing they did was jack me up on painkillers and muscle relaxants and send me home. I don't think I'm going to do any more healthcare.
I’m very sorry to hear that. Unfortunately there isn’t much that can be done for fractured ribs other than to provide pain meds and muscle relaxers (to keep you from having muscle spasms) and to advise you to get rest at home while the ribs heal on their own, which can take at least six weeks. Once the ER docs ruled out that you didn’t injure any organs from your fall, it sounds like they actually did the right thing by sending you home with pain meds as there is really not much else they can do.
It used to be the standard treatment for fractured ribs was to tightly wrap the rib area but that while that provides some relief from pain, it actually keeps you from taking deep breaths which can lead to lung collapse and greatly increases your risk of pneumonia.
If you are still in severe pain however after almost 3 months, it would be advisable to see a doctor and have some more x-rays done.
I think you can up your kids’ D3 a little, especially if they sometimes catch colds and other viruses.
NA is North African?
We homeschool too.
Well then, better yet, fire anyone who comes to work with a cold. Doesn't have to be the flu. I am so sick of getting sick from sick people infecting my workplace. The coughing, sneezing and slobbering/dripping of germs makes me SICK! Use a precious "sick day" and stay home.
Thanks for your advice. Heard all of that before. No, thanks.
You should have seen the looks on their faces when I told them my last physical exam was 1968. I wanted to engage in competetive sports and it was required by the public school system.
OK…. But I really don't get it. Nothing you said indicates that you didn't get good if not excellent care the two times you sought health care over your life time. Your tonsils probably needed to come out but yet the very worst thing you have to say about that experience was that your dad passed out – you lived, your dad came to after passing out (fainting) and you are most likely better off than if your infected tonsils had been left in you to fester and had you died from septicemia. Then a few months ago you suffered fractured ribs from a fall and were sent home with pain killers and muscle relaxers, which is pretty much standard care for rib fractures unless you suffered internal organ injury which you evidently didn’t.
But dude, seriously, if you are still suffering from severe pain and disability from your rib fractures after three months and refuse to see a doctor, that’s not the fault of modern medicine – that’s your own fault for being stubborn and dare I say stupid.
I guess I am just still angry that they shot me up with morphine to get me on the gurney, gave me a one-armed x-ray technician, kept me in the ER for several hours because the morphine had suppressed my respiration to the point that I was running less than 80% blood oxygen level, then walked me out in a set of paper scrubs because I could neither sit down in nor get out of a wheelchair.
I'm not surrendering myself to that kind of crap ever again.
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