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Spain fears break-up as Catalonia votes - "We're sick of being robbed...."
DNA - Daily News Analysis ^ | November 24, 2012 | Fiona Govan | The Daily Telegraph

Posted on 11/24/2012 2:43:25 AM PST by Cincinatus' Wife

In Madrid, the central government of Mariano Rajoy has pledged to fight any move towards independence. There are fears that fellow separatists in the Basque region and even Galicia will follow suit, provoking a constitutional crisis. One association of retired and active members of the military even warned that war should be declared on Catalonia if the region broke away and others have suggested Mas [ Artur Mas, the incumbent regional president and leader of the centre-Right Convergence and Union Party (CIU)] should be tried for treason.

Something is missing at the top of the flagpole outside the town hall in Arenys de Munt. Despite a law requiring it, the red and yellow of la Rojigualda - Spain's national ensign - is nowhere to be seen. Something else is missing inside the building itself. On the walls of Josep Manuel Ximenis's office a blank space marks the spot where a portrait of King Juan Carlos would normally hang.

But both these absences are a badge of honour for Mayor Ximenis. Instead he proudly displays a certificate declaring his town to be a "free and sovereign territory of Catalonia", independent of the Bourbon crown and the symbols of the Spanish state.

It may not be legally binding or even recognised outside of the municipal limits but it represents the strength of the desire for nationhood that is growing across Catalonia and has set the wealthy region on a collision course with Madrid this weekend.

Three years ago last September, Arenys de Munt, a picturesque town of 8,500 people 28 miles north of Barcelona, held an informal referendum on whether Catalonia should secede from Spain. Forty-one per cent of residents turned out to vote and an overwhelming 96 per cent of them said yes.

"At the time we simply wanted to start the debate, to show it wasn't just a minority of extremists calling for the impossible," explains Mr Ximenis. The plebiscite - emblematic, partial and unofficial - was repeated in the months that followed in 553 towns and villages across Catalonia. Although marked by a low turnout, it showed overwhelmingly the appetite for independence.

"We started the ball rolling, it gained momentum, and just look at where we are now. An independent Catalonia isn't just an impossible dream, it's going to happen and it's going to happen soon."

On Saturday, Catalans goes to the polls to choose a new parliament, but with the expectation that a referendum on independence for the region will be swift to follow. Artur Mas, the incumbent regional president and leader of the centre-Right Convergence and Union Party (CIU), called the snap elections with the promise that if re-elected, he would see it as a mandate to hold a vote on secession within his term of office.

Emboldened by a pro-independence demonstration that saw 1.5?million people take to the streets on Catalonia's national day on September 11, Mas shifted his party's official position on independence and said, "Let the people decide".

His speeches at campaign rallies across the region in the lead-up to the vote have been greeted by supporters with feverish choruses of "Independence! Independence!" It is music to the ears of Ximenis, who says such separatist sentiment has been simmering in the hearts of Catalans for centuries.

"Catalonia is a nation, we have our own language, our own culture, our own history," said the 50-year-old as a preamble to a brief precis of the repression of the Catalan people from the 1714 War of Succession to the years under Francisco Franco, when just speaking Catalan could result in a jail term. "Yet still we are treated as an occupied colony by Madrid and our resources exploited," he said.

Indeed, it is the current economic climate that has fuelled the independence movement and the conviction that Catalonia would fare better on its own. The long-held bone of contention is that Catalonia, the wealthiest of Spain's 17 semi-autonomous regions, whose industry accounts for a fifth of Spain's GDP, is taxed unfairly by Madrid.

The Generalitat, as Catalonia's government is known, calculates that it pays about euros 15billion more than it gets back from the national treasury every year. Catalonia wants to collect its own taxes, to control how they are spent and it seems prepared to break away from Spain to do so.

But with a clear road map yet to be outlined, the process of separating from Spain promises to be burdened with hurdles. While Catalans prize their role as citizens of Europe, EU officials have warned that membership of the union would not be automatic.

Instead, Catalonia would have to gain admission, joining the queue of a list of new European nations seeking membership, and the process would likely be blocked by a vengeful Spain.

There are also fears that big businesses and multinationals within the region could relocate, unprepared to risk a change in trade terms. Critics warn of a damaging boycott of Catalan goods by Spain if independence were to go ahead. For the Catalans, like the Scots, who will vote on independence in 2014, it's unchartered territory.

In Madrid, the central government of Mariano Rajoy has pledged to fight any move towards independence. There are fears that fellow separatists in the Basque region and even Galicia will follow suit, provoking a constitutional crisis. One association of retired and active members of the military even warned that war should be declared on Catalonia if the region broke away and others have suggested Mas should be tried for treason.

Sunday's vote comes at a time when Rajoy is trying to show stability and fiscal responsibility in his fight to keep Spain in the euro currency zone and avoid an international bail-out, while the nation suffers a double-dip recession and a 25% unemployment rate. But the trials of central government are its own problem according to many in Arenys de Munt, where scarlet and gold striped flags of Catalonia flutter from balconies.

Sonia, a 35-year-old meeting a group of other mothers for a coffee before picking up their children at the school gates, summed it up. "We're sick of being robbed. We'll be better off on our own."

There is some dissent. One middle aged man would not allow his name to be used when interviewed. "The independence issue is a nonsense and a distraction," he said. "We should be discussing how we are going to stop the flood of unemployment, survive deep spending cuts and promote economic growth."

But his is not a popular voice here. That of Jeroni Mayne, 63, a retired financial consultant pushing his nine-month-old twin granddaughters, is. "In my heart I've always felt Catalan, never ever Spanish," he said. "We are on the verge of an important and proud moment in our history." Nodding towards the sleeping girls he added: "They will grow up in Catalonia, an independent country recognised across the world, and it will be great."


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: basques; catalonia; eu; europeanunion; nato; secession; spain
Weekly Standard: Mas Movement Christopher Caldwell - November 26, 2012, Vol. 18, No. 11

A country is in big trouble when cities or states it thought prosperous start clamoring for bailouts. Think back to the New York headlines of the 1970s (“Ford to City: Drop Dead”) or consider the states now careening towards bankruptcy (Illinois and California tops among them). But Spain has a bigger problem. It is a complicated constitutional federation that relies on the semi-autonomous region of Catalonia to pay a lot of its bills, and Catalonia is now saying to Madrid what Ford said to New York. The Catalan president, Artur Mas, has called elections for November 25, promising to interpret a big victory as a green light for a referendum on full independence. Spain’s government has declared, Spain’s Supreme Court has opined, and Spain’s national assembly has voted that such a referendum would be illegal.

All of Europe is broke, but Spain is broker, and for a long time Catalonia appeared to be even broker still. For years its public finances have been in disorder and its banks on the verge of collapse. But Catalonia remains the economic, research, and financial powerhouse of Spain. Many of its woes come from the need to carry the rest of Spain—with its bubbles and its scandals and its elaborate patronage systems—on its back. Catalonia has a trade surplus of almost $30 billion with the rest of the country, and loses 10 percent of its gross domestic product to the other regions through transfer programs. When a nationalist march in Barcelona, the capital, on September 11 drew huge crowds, Mas seized the moment to demand a less onerous fiscal compact from Madrid. Since that could have imperiled 1 or 2 percent of the Spanish budget, conservative premier Mariano Rajoy, already facing budgetary pressure from Euroean authorities, said no. Mas dissolved the Catalan parliament and asked the public for an “indestructible majority” to hold an independence referendum within four years.

Catalan nationalism is ancient, but the movement as we now know it dates from the 19th century, when the region’s industrial development turned the area around Barcelona into something dramatically more modern than the rest of Spain. Mas’s voters are not the ignorant, vindictive, and folkloric nationalists of caricature. His mentor Jordi Pujol always strove to distinguish his movement from nationalisms that were “exclusive, uncooperative, and often disrespectful.”

The movement has much in common with other breakaway movements gaining steam in Europe now. Scottish nationalists will hold a referendum on independence in 2014, and the new Flemish nationalists have just captured the mayoralty of Antwerp. The Catalan website In Transit has described all these movements as “cosmopolitan nationalism.” Pujol built the nationalist Convergence and Union (CiU) party around gentle, cultured, center-right businessmen. He encouraged immigration, on the grounds that North Africans (or whoever) would have to learn the Catalan language, while internal migrants from Andalusia would be content to stick with Spanish. (He has only been half-right. The Achilles’ heel of the CiU in the Mas era is that the Catalan language on which the national identity rests is now spoken as a first language by only a minority in Barcelona.)

This kind of nationalism is not as unsettling as its predecessors. For much the same reason, it is not as logical, either. Catalans, like Scots and Flemings, do not seek a country for “ourselves alone.” They explicitly seek to submit themselves to the European Union’s system of “shared sovereignty.” Mas reportedly wants the wording of the referendum question to read: “Do you want Catalonia to become a new state within the European Union?” The legal scholar Antoni Abat Ninet has written that Catalonia must make clear right off the bat that it “assumes the supremacy of community law and intends to maintain stability in international relations and respect for fundamental rights.” The foundation Catalunya Estat is optimistic that, under international law—specifically the Vienna Convention of 1978—Catalunya could glide right into EU membership.

Scottish experts, too, have devoted a good deal of thought to whether their country can automatically maintain its membership in the EU. They are a bit less sanguine. In an opinion prepared for the British parliament, Graham Avery of the European Policy Centre in Brussels wrote that “Scotland’s EU membership would need to be in place simultaneously with Scottish independence.” But why? What if it weren’t? Would Scotland still want independence? Would Catalonia? These nationalists sound less like Garibaldi fighting for the unification of Italy than Eleanor Holmes Norton debating statehood for the District of Columbia.

Since parliament has already approved a referendum, Mas’s CiU is set to benefit no matter what happens. In ordinary circumstances, a lukewarm plurality wants independence. But as in similar votes in Quebec, big referenda fire people up. Earlier this year, a poll in the Barcelona paper El Periódico had 53.6 percent saying they would vote “Yes,” versus 32 percent on the “No” side. Mas is now six seats short of an absolute majority. If he gets one, he will have a lot of freedom of action. If he doesn’t, his republican right will have to make a coalition with the party known as the Republican Left (ERC). That would be fine, too. It would isolate the non-nationalists on the left, further damaging an imploding Catalan socialist party that has been the CiU’s main rival, and which has benefited from a cozy relationship with the Socialists in Madrid.

Madrid is resisting. Under the Spanish constitution, Spain must approve any secession. Lest the message be seen as ambiguous, the National Assembly voted overwhelmingly (276 votes to 42) in October to disallow the Catalan referendum. The conservative Euro-parliament member Alejo Vidal Quadras opined that an independent Catalonia would have to undertake the long process of reapplying for EU membership. The move towards independence shows no sign of stopping. Catalans, despite their recent history, may underestimate the grim resolve of their fellow Iberians. Spaniards, meanwhile, think Mas is playing some kind of game, and hope he might be willing to negotiate the referendum away in exchange for a generously amended fiscal compact. Tragedies often result when two sides each wrongly think the other is bluffing.

Catalan independence is a wish that has been harbored for centuries. There are cultural, economic, and moral arguments for it. But one must ask why it is happening the way it is happening, and why now. The answer lies in the EU, which is a project for dissolving the continent’s nation-states. The EU’s leaders might not say it, they might not even think it, but the logic is inexorable. It is natural for minorities within the traditional nation-states to profit from this dissolution. But eventually majorities will see it as a trick that has been played on them. There is nothing more dangerous in politics than a majority convinced it has been tricked.

1 posted on 11/24/2012 2:43:38 AM PST by Cincinatus' Wife
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To: Cincinatus' Wife

O-H-I-O

Never USA.


2 posted on 11/24/2012 2:47:03 AM PST by gotribe
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To: Cincinatus' Wife
Catalan independence is a wish that has been harbored for centuries. There are cultural, economic, and moral arguments for it. But one must ask why it is happening the way it is happening, and why now. The answer lies in the "EU, which is a project for dissolving the continent’s nation-states. The EU’s leaders might not say it, they might not even think it, but the logic is inexorable. It is natural for minorities within the traditional nation-states to profit from this dissolution. But eventually majorities will see it as a trick that has been played on them. There is nothing more dangerous in politics than a majority convinced it has been tricked."

That quote has applicability in the US as well. Will the US wake up before the collapse or will the Obama Soma work until the end.

3 posted on 11/24/2012 2:53:59 AM PST by Truth29
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To: Truth29

We need to look around us — beyond what has happened in this election, and what is happening in the Middle East — and think about if there is a pattern developing, why and the possible outcomes (not only for these countries but as how this relates to us) from these breakdowns and breakups of nations due to actions by the productive factions within countries. And why is the Obama administration driving us toward this same end?


4 posted on 11/24/2012 3:24:18 AM PST by Cincinatus' Wife
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To: Cincinatus' Wife
IMO, strong, monolithic cultures can resist external pressures and governance. They chart their own course. Fragmented, multicultural countries without a strong common bond are more easily defeated and brought under external control.
5 posted on 11/24/2012 3:30:59 AM PST by Truth29
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To: Cincinatus' Wife
As I recall, WWII was preceded by a Spanish civil war.
6 posted on 11/24/2012 3:47:52 AM PST by Yo-Yo (Is the /sarc tag really necessary?)
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To: Cincinatus' Wife

NWO


7 posted on 11/24/2012 3:48:49 AM PST by ransacked
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To: Cincinatus' Wife

If the United States political split was more geographically represented, we would have already split up.


8 posted on 11/24/2012 3:54:37 AM PST by SampleMan (Feral Humans are the refuse of socialism.)
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To: SampleMan

They occupy the coastal areas east and west, the upper midwest, again around water, and the major urban areas. Mass transit, mass brainwashing and mass victim thinking.

In the end, they will be the first victims of their own concentrated infestation. Their support structures are no more than 4-5 days deep as we saw in Katrina and ongoing in Sandy’s aftermath. As far as I’m concerned, I don’t think they can count on any charity on my part. Let them go tell Obama.


9 posted on 11/24/2012 4:09:56 AM PST by Gaffer
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To: gotribe

Wouldn’t it be nice for the Red Counties to become independent form the Blue Counties in the USA, basically the urban areas separating from the rural areas in how taxes are collected and spent?

One size fits all government solutions don’t work for either side. Currently it is urban area votes now imposing their will on rural America.

We are a split country ideologically with few solutions being offered to end the disagreement from either side.

Issues of transportation, repairs to infrastructure, agriculture, education, social norms, law enforcement, management of resources or almost any way to look at responsible management in governance are not effective with “one size fits all governance”.

Problems and solutions are different in cities than in rural areas, period.

I’m sick of San Francisco / L.A. politics telling me what to do here in rural California. I love where I live just want to be allowed to be independent from the nauseating decisions imposed on us from the City Slicker intelligentsia.


10 posted on 11/24/2012 4:15:10 AM PST by jcon40
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To: Truth29

The Basques have been fighting for independence for centuries as well.

The Euro project may well have exactly the opposite result of its globalist founders—balkanization of Europe.

Check out this map of the Holy Roman Empire in 1789 in this article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Roman_Empire

Can you count all the mini-states? (That might be a fun children’s game. :-) )


11 posted on 11/24/2012 4:19:17 AM PST by cgbg (HLM--"Democracy is the theory that people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard.")
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To: jcon40

Its the same situation here in rural PA


12 posted on 11/24/2012 4:20:26 AM PST by TLEIBY308 (Keep yer powder dry and watch yer top Knot.)
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To: Cincinatus' Wife

This is how islamics live, they live in fractured warring states. Islam is about WAR, Conquest and Domination. Those who say it means Peace do not understand that there are many kinds of Peace. They think there is only mutual, beneficial respect which leads to peace. But surrender to domination by a violent, aggressive, bullying, tormenting and warring faction is another form of peace. And the latter is the type of peace that is promised by islam. This type of peace is surrender to Allah’s minions so they can follow his will by abusing, dominating and destroying you, your people and your culture and make it over into their own warring backward culture of fight fight fight.


13 posted on 11/24/2012 4:26:02 AM PST by This I Wonder32460
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To: This I Wonder32460

Victory is decided by those who can build a power base while keeping opposition fractured and at odds, incapable of joining forces to oppose them.


14 posted on 11/24/2012 4:38:57 AM PST by Cincinatus' Wife
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To: Truth29
The EU's mission is not to dissolve the constituent nation-states. That doesn't mean there are no European politicians who want that to happen, but that's not the mission.

In fact, one of the EU's positive effects has been to ENCOURAGE more ancient states to come out! Almost any history fan can tell you the names of dozens of culturally and linguistically different nations states still lurking there in France, Germany, Italy, Spain and Britain.

Before the 1600s ~ and the 30 Years War and the Peace of Westphalia ~ it had been somewhat common for the smaller nation states to play off one large state against another large state for the purpose of enriching itself (and its ruling noble classes).

Brittany, for example, very successfully played off England against Burgundy against France, and all of them against Spain! After the 30 years war Brittany was neatly tied into France ~ but they still have their own language, and now their own flag, and most of them live in America anyway, but the EU offers them the chance of being a full nation state again.

Within Burgundy and France there's an older Gallo speaking region centered roughly on Anjou that peeks out every now and then. They used to rule France and England ~ but today they're just a bunch of French counties. They could easily become a state!

Germany is another area much better off defederated as Germany, and refederated as states within an EU structure. Same with PIedmont ~ oh, noes, they call that Italia these days!!!!

Spain is a tad different. It was created by the efforts of Castile, Leon and Carvajal ~ Carvajal? What's that? Well, when King San Cho Noe I initiated the Reconquista to create Spain, he set up three kingdoms working in concert. Each would take up the task of war in turn, while the other two rested and recovered. In the end Castile and Leon absorbed the third state and did most of job over the next 500 years. People tend to forget that part of Spain's history ~ that the country was conceived of, then created. This is not simply a revival of Roman or Carthaginian Spain ~ it's a new creation.

Catalonia has it's feelings of being different, but that doesn't mean it is.

Still, Spain could be easily unbundled ~ Portugual, long a part of Spain, is fully independent for example. As long as there are uniform tariffs, free flows of people and goods, and joint citizenship, there should be no real problems in drawing more lines.

15 posted on 11/24/2012 4:51:31 AM PST by muawiyah
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To: Truth29
The answer lies in the "EU, which is a project for dissolving the continent’s nation-states.

The EU has a vested interest in dissolving the European nation-states into a myriad of tiny little districts, each directly governed from Brussels. Once that is done, breaking up the EU will be impossible.

16 posted on 11/24/2012 4:53:03 AM PST by PapaBear3625 (You don't notice it's a police state until the police come for you.)
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To: This I Wonder32460
Most islamics used to live in the Ottoman Empire ~ most non Turkish speaking areas were operated pretty much as tax farms for the benefit of the Empire's core area.

Europeans broke the Ottoman Empire up into many states ~ to a degree the claims of people like Osama Bin Laden regarding the Islamic Caliphate are really no more than an argument to bring back that which was, not that which someone thinks ought to be on account of religion. These guys are irredentists!

For a considerable period of time the United States could always be counted on to champion Ottoman claims. WWI ended that ~ the Ottomans foolishly allied themselves with the Kaiser's Germany ~ then Germany lost the war.

17 posted on 11/24/2012 4:56:50 AM PST by muawiyah
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To: Cincinatus' Wife

Spain going Galt. Surprise, surprise.

We know the Leftists won’t fight for God and country, but for the “right” to steal other people’s stuff? You betcha.


18 posted on 11/24/2012 5:11:23 AM PST by St_Thomas_Aquinas (Viva Christo Rey!)
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To: cgbg

“The Basques have been fighting for independence for centuries as well.”

They’ll have a tougher time, because progressive, liberal France is determined to stop that as well (a part of the envisioned Basque Country lies in France). Like the Kurds, who may have had a chance if it was just breaking away from Iraq - Turkey, Iran, and Syria aren’t about to give up territory as well.


19 posted on 11/24/2012 5:12:09 AM PST by kearnyirish2 (Affirmative action is economic war against white males (and therefore white families).)
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To: PapaBear3625

“The EU has a vested interest in dissolving the European nation-states into a myriad of tiny little districts, each directly governed from Brussels.”

I think the past year has shown that Germany will dictate the path of the European Union; they got what they fought WWII for. As happened 70 years ago, plenty of Europeans seem quite willing to have Germans make the hard decisions for them. Very creepy...


20 posted on 11/24/2012 5:15:56 AM PST by kearnyirish2 (Affirmative action is economic war against white males (and therefore white families).)
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To: Truth29

How is the Catalan language different from Spanish ?


21 posted on 11/24/2012 5:32:16 AM PST by Eric in the Ozarks (In the game of life, there are no betting limits)
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To: SampleMan

“If the United States political split was more geographically represented, we would have already split up.”

The oddest thing in the US is that the areas with the highest taxes consistently vote Democrat. I understand those areas are filled with permanent parasites voting for the hand that feeds (or at least the government hand that moves assets from the hands that make to their hands that take), but the fact is wealthy liberals in high cost, high tax area are much more susceptible to the Alternative Minimum Tax (which wipes out deductions) on top of the high sales, state income and property taxes they already pay.


22 posted on 11/24/2012 5:40:30 AM PST by kearnyirish2 (Affirmative action is economic war against white males (and therefore white families).)
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To: Eric in the Ozarks
"How is the Catalan language different from Spanish ?"

Not an official source, if there were one, but the attached Wikipedia entry contains lots of detail and links.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_language

23 posted on 11/24/2012 5:48:00 AM PST by Truth29
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To: kearnyirish2

Prove to me liberals PAY tax.

Congresswoman Eleanor Holmes Norton (D). Washington DC congressional rep in perpetuity.

From 1981-82, Norton served as a fellow at the Urban Institute. The following year, she was hired as a law professor at Georgetown University, a post she has held ever since.

In 1990 the District of Columbia’s non-voting Delegate to the U.S. House of Representatives, Walter Fauntroy, resigned to run (unsuccessfully) for city mayor. Norton narrowly won the Democratic primary race to replace Fauntroy, and then won the Delegate seat in the general election by a wide margin. She has been re-elected every two years since then, always by wide margins.

During Norton’s 1990 political campaign, it came to light that she and her husband had paid no D.C. income taxes since 1981.

http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/individualProfile.asp?indid=1955

This story “accidentally” broke through the MSM/propaganda front . Even if the Left is not paying taxes at this point, I’d bet somebody is preparing each a “return”


24 posted on 11/24/2012 5:56:39 AM PST by mo (If you understand, no explanation is needed. If you don't understand, no explanation is possible.)
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To: mo

I don’t know the particulars of the District of Columbia; I know that in NY and NJ property taxes are high in areas that vote strongly Dem, while they are lower in Repub areas (”the sticks”).


25 posted on 11/24/2012 6:04:20 AM PST by kearnyirish2 (Affirmative action is economic war against white males (and therefore white families).)
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To: Cincinatus' Wife

Spain SHOULD break up, as should Belgium.


26 posted on 11/24/2012 6:05:13 AM PST by montag813
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To: Truth29
Exhibit A:


27 posted on 11/24/2012 6:14:08 AM PST by KC_Lion (Build the America you want to live in at your address, and keep looking up.-Sarah Palin)
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To: Eric in the Ozarks

The “Spanish” that you hear around the states is actually Castillian (Castellano). There are many other languages around Spain. Catalan, the language of Catalonia, appears to non-natives as closer to French than to Castillian.

I have family and friends from all over Spain (mostly refugees of the Franco dictatorship who moved to San Juan), and their elders speak all kinds of stuff: Euskara (Basque), Catalan, Aragonese, Galician, etc. But Castillian is the dominant and common language and the one that was exported to the Americas.


28 posted on 11/24/2012 6:28:37 AM PST by cll (I am the warrant and the sanction)
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To: Cincinatus' Wife

Alberta should leave Canada too, they could very easily be independent. Actually, most of the west of Canada could form a new republic and be rid of the free loaders from the east. I am tired of this socialist experiment and tired of working hard for 150 days a year so that others in have not places can have “free” healthcare, and “free” money and other nice “free” things.

The more they take the more we wake up it seems.


29 posted on 11/24/2012 6:29:57 AM PST by Bulwyf
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To: Cincinatus' Wife

The funny thing is that if Catalonia becomes independent and an EU member, they’d likely end up a net payer to Brussels instead of Madrid. And that excess wouldn’t be spent in their neighboring regions, but in places like Bulgaria and Romania...


30 posted on 11/24/2012 7:13:15 AM PST by Moltke ("I am Dr. Sonderborg," he said, "and I don't want any nonsense.")
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To: cll

I took Spanish in high school and took a six week course at the Tech in Monterrey. My third year of Spanish in high school was with a teacher who spoke Spanish as in Spain.
Seemed to me there were more than a few differences in Spanish in Mexico vs. Spain.


31 posted on 11/24/2012 8:38:37 AM PST by Eric in the Ozarks (In the game of life, there are no betting limits)
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To: Cincinatus' Wife
They even have a national anthem ready.

The old R&B song, "Catalonia, What Makes Your Big Head So Hard?"

32 posted on 11/24/2012 8:55:21 AM PST by x
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To: kearnyirish2
The oddest thing in the US is that the areas with the highest taxes consistently vote Democrat.

Not odd, but rather causal; like the houses with the most termites having the highest number of structural problems. They have the highest taxes precisely because they are such committed commies.

The wealthy either leave or lose their wealth. Those areas then become blighted socialist hell holes that have forgotten where and how the original wealth was created.

Detroit is their model. Parasites killing the host.

33 posted on 11/24/2012 12:46:10 PM PST by SampleMan (Feral Humans are the refuse of socialism.)
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To: Eric in the Ozarks

Yes, there are both subtle and significant differences in the way people from different regions or countries speak Castillian Spanish, but it is all mostly Castillian with a lot of local slang. I can speak freely with anyone from Central or South America or Spain in “Spanish”. might have to ask for clarification of certain items, but when that obstacle is reached everyone just reverts to Castillian. If someone were to speak to me in, say, Catalonian, I probably wouldn’t be able to understand the half of it. Heck, I understand Portuguese or Italian a lot better than I do any of the other “Spanish” languages. And then, there’s the Puerto Rican Spanglish, which is another ballgame...


34 posted on 11/24/2012 1:23:08 PM PST by cll (I am the warrant and the sanction)
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To: cll
We had a popular MD here who was born and raised in Cuba.
His Spanish was full of tongue twisters...
35 posted on 11/24/2012 3:14:26 PM PST by Eric in the Ozarks (In the game of life, there are no betting limits)
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