Posted on 11/20/2012 1:12:51 PM PST by NYer
“We are a secular nation, not Christian (anymore) and at some point will probably be muslim”
So? You don’t hear people attacking the decision on grounds of the right to the free expression of Christianity. If a muslim retail store doesn’t want to sell pork, so be it.
“A precedent of limiting coverage on religious grounds is dangerous grounds to be on?”
Why? Do you imagine employers won’t let their staff buy condoms, receive blood transfusions, or whatever else superstition forbids? There’s an elegant solution, and one our civilization gas apparently forgotten: get another job! Better yet, let’s decide as a society to divorce the corrupt union of employment and insurance coverage.
They keep pissing off all the christians and every hobby lobby across the country will be set aflame by their own managers to send a message “we will not comply”...
Oh, you mean the IRS.
And to top it off...you have ultralib friends. Your words...not mine.
Friends? Ultralib? And you are here?
Donald...I think I've replied to you on another thread....and said the same thing.
You are not a Conservative! Period.
Let us hope, and pray, that the American people wake up to this gross usurpation of power by Obama, his accomplices in congress, and his courts.
Yep, that’s why I said “mostly”. The likelihood of having a daughter on insurance at that age would be minimal.
You wouldn’t want them to go to a leftist indoctrination center anyways, which is what most post secondary institutions are these days.
Single payer leads to an end to medical progress. The effective, expensive new medicine can’t be used because it is not on the formulary. The approved drugs and procedures will be the old ineffective ones.
The model for the single payer system is the old Soviet agricultural system.
I like Christian healthcare, miracles and more miracles. I think we have the best healthcare going, who else has brought back the dead, or made the lame to walk?
“No, they CAN’T “force” them to comply.
Hobby Lobby can re-arrange their business so that they are not covered by the law.”
Or they could simply shut the doors.
I don't think so. Any kids you had at age 24 or older could still be eligible for your insurance after you turn 50. If you had a kid at age 35, she'd be eligible until you're 62.
Here's the problem with that line of reasoning. If Paul's house burns down and he has no fire insurance on it, we would just say, "Too bad for Paul... he should have bought fire insurance."
But if Paul gets cancer and has no health insurance, very few of us would say "Too bad for Paul... I guess he's going to die."
People are not sympathetic with someone who makes a poor financial decision such as fire insurance. But most people are willing to pitch in to save someones life -- in the US they always have been. That is why all of our hospital systems began as charity hospitals.
Our problem for the last 45 years after allowing the government's nose under the tent of health care is that now it has become a massive bureaucracy that cares nothing about Paul's cancer. Paul is just another number to them, not a person who we would extend empathy to. The bureaucracy is incapable of empathy or of caring weather Paul lives or dies. He's just a cypher amidst a mass of paperwork to them.
We have managed to remove the human element of compassion from health care and made it a budgetary matter for faceless, and in fact heartless bureaucracies to handle and often corrupt and greedy 'health care providers' to deliver.
The "charity" and simple human empathy element of health care has been nearly totally removed from the equation. It is now big business thanks to government involvement.
Not good.
Well, Judge Heaton, you arguably can tell the owner of a going concern, even a privately held going concern, that the government can compel him to follow the HHS mandate. I think you’ll find it might be more difficult for you and HHS if the CEO of said concern says “Okay, we talked it over and we can’t in good conscience continue Hobby Lobby as a going concern with those laws in place. We’re closing all our facilities, terminating all our employees, basically winding up the company. We’ll help our employees find new work, and make sure they (and potential employers) understand we’re not doing this because they’re bad employees, but we’re also going to be very honest and open with them all about why we’re doing this. And laws and court decisions like these are exactly why we’re doing this. And then you people can deal with the financial and human consequences of 18,000 newly unemployed people, and decide whether you really like your laws that much.”
Actually, it was pulled out of the Heritage Foundation's well-traveled backside.
Very bad news. It’s interesting that they’re attacking the Protestant organizations first, even though there were only a couple of groups that opposed Bambicare. At the same time, the Catholic Church as a whole has said it’s not going to implement Bambicare (and has also filed suit), but the secularist forces don’t feel this is a good time to confront the bishops. Too bad for them, because our bishops get more conservative and more aggressive every day..
I think the government may be hoping to threaten smaller groups or even the friends of these groups enough to make them back off. Some of them will, some of them won’t. When they go after the Church (I’m betting by January), I think things will be a lot clearer for all people.
Go back to school because, in the case of Papa John's, having to charge/pay $0.14 more for a pizza will kill the economy. :rolleyes:
Paying in income-type tax would be much less burdensome to businesses than the current system of yearly negotiations with insurance companies and administering the insurance paperwork for their employees.
And it's not very liberating for the employee, because he can't reduce his costs by living as healthily as he can and opting for cheaper coverage to prevent catastrophic losses, such as a Major Medical plan or a Health Share plan, or no coverage it all. (The latter has heretofore been common for Americans who are in low-risk groups, e.g. young unmarried employed men ages 20 - 30, who choose to take that $nK a year and put it into something they want more, i.e. a business start-up.)(We call this "choice".)
Welcome to the burdens of living in a modern society. We make it mandatory here in Florida to purchase auto insurance to protect people from having to deal with paying for things out of pocket caused by uninsured motorists. Health coverage ought to work the same way, everybody pays in and it is there when you need it.
It also results in a sharp reduction in the number of providers, since doctors will get out of a system which micro-manages their professional and ethical judgments and triples their paperwork. Most potential medical students won't bust their butts to go through all those years of schooling, internship, residency, etc. just to be put in the shackles of a system "with all the efficiency of the U.S. Postal Service and all the compassion of the IRS".
We're already undergoing a severe shortage of doctors and it's been happening since before the passage of Obamacare. It's caused by a population increasing faster than the medical schools can push out doctors. Fix the supply of doctors by building more medical colleges and making it so that becoming a doctor doesn't mean taking on crushing levels of student debt.
And who do you think is the largest funder of medical innovation and progress in the world? The US government funded National Institutes of Health to the tune of over $30bn annually.
Maybe it is time for you to move on to DU? Conflating religious freedom and conscience with racism and or bigotry is a leftist tactic.
YOU are a leftist!
And? It’s not like I’ve been trying to hide it.
You need to get deprogrammed -your mind is corrupted by leftist propaganda. YOU are one of Obama's useful idiots advocating for government imposed tyranny.
The Heritage Foundation may have had part of the idea, but it did not ram is idea down the collective throat of the nation in defiance of the people’s desire. The plan Heritage advanced had none of the complexity and intrusiveness of the current 2700-page law, which was thrown together in a few months by people who had no clinical experience whatsoever. Eventually, after some consideration and feedback, Heritage dropped the idea. Obama did not.
The ACA is an interesting piece of legislation. Have you read it? The entire thing? Do you have to work within its constraints? Are you familiar with the functioning and shortcomings of the hideous National Health Service of the UK? Do you have either medical research or clinical experience? I have. I submit that if you too could answer those questions in the affirmative, you’d have a more realistic idea of the effects of Obamacare, and of the single-payer system for which you long.
“If a corporation is a “person”, then why doesn’t it have religious freedom?”
Great question!
I’ll venture a guess, if I may: because it’s not consistent with the Marxist left’s agenda (21?) for America.
Hobby Lobby could cancel all insurance, pay the $2000 penalty, and know they didn’t buy insurance that covered birth control.
I can’t wait for a conservative president to require all businesses to reverently display posters of Jesus throughout their work environments. It would tak Congress to help, but it might not infringe, as long as no one had to do anything with it beyond displaying it.
Well we have been looking at a couple of Christian Schools. And College of the Ozarks seems interesting. Our local university doesn’t seem to bad or Sul Ross out in Alpine... I guess it will be a wait and see.
Thanks bro!
LLS
True but I gave my word to my employees and even if it costs me money... I must keep my word.
LLS
I guess that means muslims may not be allowed to run halal meat markets? or Bakeries? Hmmmm I have a feeling Obama will find a way to compromise with them.
Most muslims will sell anything in their store. They can sell but not use or prepare. They are not required by any law to sell or stock any particular product.
Insurance is a whole different ballgame. I'm sure your premiums pay for all kinds of stuff that is against religion but we can't really pick and choose how the money is spent once we send in our premiums. I don't thnik they can win this.
The government does not make new products. They provide money and private companies design and build the products.
Anyone who have dealth with the govt knows that most of their procedures are not cost effective. Its is “free” taxpayers money so they could care less about cost.
We would still have medical progress but it would be more expensive.
I wonder what would happen if Hobby Lobby decided to pursue liquidation over this.
I actually think thats what obama is hoping for. They only have two choices. Throw their religious beliefs out the window or be forced to pay crippling fines that will drive them out of business.
Take it to a higher court and FIGHT this Hobby Lobby.
All citizens SHOULD be horrified by this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Lying bastard. Our First Amendment rights have been spit on, trampled on and breached. Rebellion is in order. It is time to storm DC and make our voices heard.
The same is not true for just existing --- being a legal resident of the United States. Just "being here" creates negligible risk of calamitous damage to other persons and their property.
On physician supply and climate of care: Of course there are many factors which influence the supply of doctors: number of openings available in med school, the burdens of student debt, etc. But a big one is the climate of care. With the disappearance of freestanding doctors' offices, small practices and even small hospitals --- due to much higher overheads, complex record-keeping and omnipresent minute regulation --- the care environment becomes depersonalized, even "industrialized." Couple that with stagnant or dropping levels of compensation, and you see lots of doctors leaving medicine (Link) and patients suffering from big declines in personal care.
Literally hundreds of thousands of examples of this in the U.K.
NHS: shabby, unsustainable, our future.
They're not facing a $2000 penalty. They are facing fines of $1.3 million per day. That's a daunting prospect for a family-owned business.
Free Exercise has been redefined as what happens during the worship service. Not how you live your life.
Hey Game, you may have some weird ideas but this one is right smack on the mark. It stinks. If the shareholders of Hobby Lobby do not want it managed in that manner, then they should buy its Christian owners out, not coerce them to play along with actions that they are convinced that God forbids. And neither under any reasonable view of the US Constitution should the Federal government have any right to coerce them thus, either.
This has gotten way out of hand.
Liberals want to punk society through the government.
This leftist stray alley cat ksen sneaked in here and now wants to be fed. If fed, it will shortly demand the right to keep on being fed.
Time to go “Twinkie” on them.
Shut the doors, turn out the lights and close.
Do not compromise your faith, ever.
(I am sure most of the young ladies working there are lib. . .the odds support that. . .and voted for The Messiah. Let them reap what they sowed.)
He “grew” in office.
That is how libs describe conservatives that become liberal.
We have principle headed for a train wreck again.
The USSC might, narrowly, do the right thing here. And since the exact scope of Obamacare coverage isn’t dictated by Congress but by bureaucrats, said bureaucrats have room to be flexible if they want to be.
There are many slips between the cup and the lip, and it might also be possible that the right argument was never made and the right precedents never presented. Some weird decisions come out of badly argued cases.
“Employees could afford their own policies if government intervention, control and regulation wasn’t driving up the cost of health care so much.”
And sleazy ambulance-chasing lawyers. Can’t forget the sleazy ambulance-chasing lawyers.
Well stated.
Bravo.
There’s some of that, but if there weren’t also a large dumb population willing to sell their soul to the lawyers, the lawyers themselves couldn’t get very far.
Donald’s tagline: “A nation cannot stand in the absence of religious principle”
Yet. . .I find Donald’s position contrary to that tagline.
Ha. . .so true. . .so true.
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